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Old 04-04-2012, 11:58 AM   #61
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P.S. Phil Fill... My Coffee was great thanks for the break my Friend! LOL
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:30 PM   #62
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"The thing I DISLIKE/HATE most is the HUGE bow wake of Bayliners, Oceans, FLEMING and most large semi displacements."

The LEFT coast sure is different , here on the East side the Stern wake is the bother.

Guess it must be coriolis force ?

HF,

When looking at goodies , look in the commercial parts bin , not the yachtie expensive shiny crap bin.

A system approach would be better than a shotgun for navigation to .

Personally the Furuno autopilot , and radar , chart plotter system look fine .

I would NOT wire them all up into a big bundle , unless each could be operated with all the others failed.

The autopilot is so important to me for ocean work , I would require some sort of second system. 4 on 4 off is not Vacation Time!

For engine instruments only the Murphy Gauges allow non electric , pure mechanical function , with a hot shot battery for the very valuable Auto Secure feature.

Most folks on a pleasure boat will stand a watch , watching for other boats or in daylight for debris in the water.
Most will have ZERO idea what the engine instruments show , or what an abnormal situation is.

Or when to wake the skipper.

The Murphy Switchgauges solve this problem , better than a paid engineer.
No Coffee breaks , head calls , or twitter time , union dues , just 24/7 monitoring.

They work fine on every noisemaker too.

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Old 04-05-2012, 09:45 AM   #63
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FF. Once again thanks.. I have been looking in the commercial parts bin as you say. The way I see it. The commercial side has the upper hand, their systems have to be top of the line for daily use. One may pay a bit more is some case but it just may be worth it.

I agree with you on wiring the Furuno systems. I want a fail safe system in place. If one fails that others still can function independently from the others. Plus I would want a back up system as well that is indepent. This many be over kill I know but peace of mind is always a great thing. What is your thought on Garmin systems if you have any? Pro's and con's as a back up system?

Thanks for the tip on the Murphy Switchgauges. Yes some people do not know what they should be look for when it comes to engine instruments. Point in case MY WIFE! LOL Not that she could not learn it, just would like a simple system for her. So thanks FF.. I will look into the Murphy Switchgauges,
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:01 AM   #64
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Another long reply.

Weather its bow or stern its still pisses me off. Yes, is probable more the stern as the stern digs a big hole in the water. The Eagle puts out about a 1 ft wake which is the bow wake.

I love our auto pilot with a 25 ft cord remote, so I am not stuck behind the helm and/or in the pilot house. As soon as we are in open water the Eagle is on auto pilot. On a single a rudder indicator is a must because most of the maneuvering is done with the rudder and the position. Would not leave the dock with out both of them. Well, even with both I seldom leave the dock. So I guess it would be seldomeerrrrr, which could be equated to NEVER. However we do use the run about, dink and kyaks most days, so we are out on the water.

I am with FF about having each electronics being able to operate separately, have a back up and Furuno is what most commercial use. Rayathone was the preferred but since they went bundled they lost the commercial market. 14 years ago we up graded with Raythone with each electronic separate. I might consider a brand other then Furuno as a back up but not primary. I been looking at the newer broad ban radar that give better detail for short distances as a back up for the long distant Raythone. Not sure of the brand but Garmin is in the running.

Instrument I donít need/really other than the basic RPM, water temp, oil pressure, and DC volts/amps with alarms. I donít trust either, gauges/alarms, so having a walk around/stand up engine room is nice as I can see, feel, hear, and smell what is going on. Also having a single engine is nice because you have easy full access to the engine.

Which brings us the age old single vs. twin engine discussion. I was very reluctant to buy the Eagle because it was a single engine. However, after talking to the commercial that run the DD 671, 24/7 for weeks, 30+ years of proven reliability, and available parts and serve, I changed my mind. In other words I would not want the newest state of the art engine, or if parts and service where not available.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:18 PM   #65
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Phil Fill.. Great read. How do you feel about wireless remote? Yes on the engine walk through. Sounds, smells are always a great tool in combinnation with instruments. Every power plant will talk to you if you just open your ears and nose. Just like diving your car. Feel, sounds and smell will tell you more sometime then any guage will. When running, how offten do you do a walk through?

Thanks for your thoughts on the electronics. Why Raythone as the main and furuno as the back up, because of commercial use? Any input on that would be welcomed.

Thanks

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Old 04-05-2012, 12:36 PM   #66
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Electronics Redundancy...

We run a furuno Navnet VX2 system on our boat. It is fully redundant. no single point of failure can take the system down.

We have two displays
Each display has its own GPS sensor
Each display has its own chart chip.
Each display is fed from a separate breaker

The radar is non redundant. In a boat your size I'd go with two radars, each tied to a separate display.

The black box sounder is non redundant but we carry a spare.
We have two identical transducers.
We also have a interphase foward looking sonar as a separate system.

Engine and generator alarm and shutdowns...

All modern engine packages have an alarm system built in. Even my mechanical Cummins have that. New electronic engines are better yet for alarming.

A modern generator package has an alarm and shutdown built in. My Northern lights has a one, and I assume you'll be going with a Northern Lights generator as they are pretty much the unit others are measured against.
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Old 04-05-2012, 01:33 PM   #67
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Thanks Ksanders
I will be doing pretty much the same thing when comes to breaking down the systems.. As after as the generator, the standard package are 2 Onan eQD 32kw, 220v 60hz.. I have just glanced at the Northern Lights Spec to see which is better for our needs. I will take a close look that is for sure.

Thanks My Friend.

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Old 04-06-2012, 05:56 AM   #68
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Plus I would want a back up system as well that is indepent.

My sugestion is for backup systems esp. for navigation.

N Korea , Iran and other countries have the ability to toss a nuke to near orbit , which would put GPS out for years.

A MDF can be created from most any AM radio with a signal strength control for EP lines .

A deep reading recording (paper chart) depth sounder will be easy to use for contour nav. should that become necessary.

The US has dumped Loran , lots of other countries have operating systems.
A Used Loran receiver should be on board., for the ocean blue passages.

Finally a good sextant and nav computer ( or a rated watch and Nautical almanac ) ..should be aboard.

You can pack the sextant and goodies in the life raft , as it will probably not be needed.

Of course once you master celestial, it is great fun . if you use the nav computer to do the math.

We use a quality hand held MDF compass (Sailor) as radio and compass backup.

A quick bit of work with the sun tables and you can swing any compas . every time you make a major course change.

Helps the DR plot a good deal . As 1deg of compass error in 60 miles is 1 mile off course..

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Old 04-06-2012, 10:50 AM   #69
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We were moored on the Ocean Alexander/Fleming/Alaskan dock and most of the 75+ ft have a wireless remote which seem to work fine. then new boats have electrinic control so it would be easier to have a wireless remote. To high tech and expensive for me. When out I set the auto on a compass heading and use the wire remote only to steer around something in the water. The auto has a soft pad which I mostly steer with rather than the helm wheel. I would not miss the remote that much. However, the helm wheels has a bigger pump so when maneuvering I usually use the wheel as itís quicker. The auto pilot pump can not be to big because when out and about 90% of the correction are small. If the pump was a bigger it would over compensate and be correcting most of the time.

Once you get the know and feel, you really do not need the gauges. Like you said itís like driving a car, you just know. While the engine is warming up and we are untying several times, once we are in open water and up to speed, check again, then every Ĺ hour. The ER door is by the bathroom door, so itís down 3 steps to the salon and then down another 4 steps, so itís easy quick to pop in and out.

To get in the ER, I use the 671 exchange cooler as a hand hold, then the manifold as railing while walking the length of the engine looking for leeks/fluids. They are warm but not to hot to be able to keep my hand on them. Then I feel the raw water pump/hoses, to cool my warm hand, and look to see what the fuel vacuum gages read. Finally for about 30 second look/feel/listen/smell how things are. The ER is warm but usually not enough to make me glow/sweat but warm.

The Eagle came with old out dated Rayathone electronics which dated the boat, so we up dated. 15 years a go Rayathone was well thought of both pleasure and commercial as they were mfg in the US and had service centers vs Furuno which was foreign made and not many service/part centers. So we up graded with Rayathone. Today it would be Furuno. Raymarine start foreign mfg and bundling systems so they lost the market. If you walk the commercial dock 75+% are Furuno.

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Old 04-06-2012, 05:29 PM   #70
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FF and Phil Fill. You guys are great. Thanks you so much for all your input and skill.
My Grand father was a skipper on the Great lakes. He steamed them for 50 years. He satrted back in the day of coal as a kid. He worked his way up to to be a skipper. I made a lot of runs with him as a young Lad and teenager. He showed me so much about the Lakes and how to Navigate on them and how to handle the large boats.

Sextant. Know it. Paper Charter. Know them and compass is a must have. That's all my G. Father used. When with him, I always walked the boat with him as he checked everything and I do mean everything. He always told me. "Boy take care of your vessel and it will take care of you when you need her."

I had alot of respect for him and he tought me so much just as you guys are teaching me now about the ins and out of trawlers and what is needed to take care of her. Much respect is given to all of you from my side. Thank you.

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Old 04-07-2012, 06:27 AM   #71
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"Know them and compass is a must have."

My point was the compass on the helm or the compass inside the autopilot might not be the "steering" (course setting) compass , which could be a simple (but expensive) hand held.

These days the use of a heat gun will allow an accurate engine room check .

With a hunk of masking tape and a majic marker on a passage the "normal;" temps could be posted when the reading is taken , and a trend for even slight changes would be found early.


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Old 04-07-2012, 08:42 AM   #72
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FF
Got you on the compass part and understood. Thanks
I have used temperature Gun (infrared therometer w/ laser sight) to double check my power plant temps on the vessels I have owned. Guages can be wrong, which happen to me on a v-6 diesel I once had. it's fast and easy to use and I have 2 of them. LOL

Thanks.

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Old 04-07-2012, 01:14 PM   #73
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One of the first big decisions a boat that size will need , is weather a noisemaker will operate 24/7/365 or if night will be silent time.

There would be a big difference in outfitting either choice.

Mostly as it concerns refrigeration.

Since there is boodles of room I would look at Sun Frost (www.sunfrost.com/) for a DC fridge and freezers.

Big ,very well insulated and a quality product. Fast simple and seamless.

Second choice (to my mind) would be a custom top loading set of fridge and freezers with 4 inch in fridge and 6 in freezer of the best insulation I could find.

There are evacuated panels that have great ratings , but you would need to design the box to those sizes.

IF the boat were really being setup for "Silent Ship" as much as possible probably large eutetic plates with the compressor either driven with hyd , or a 240v Copeland scroll unit , should result in the least noisemaker daily run time..

How to handle refrigeration , probably the highest long term power drain , would determine the power , AC , batts or Hyd for most of the vessel systems.

If the chief likes propane for cooking silent is really easy.

If the noisemaker will be on for 4-8 hours a day just to cook , refrigeration becomes much easier, and a water maker might free lots of tank space for other storage..

Thoughts?

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Old 04-09-2012, 01:41 PM   #74
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Once again thanks for the great input F.F There is so much to look at and so many things to take into account. I know Fleming has a rep for being a quiet vessel. but how quiet with noisemarker onboard is somthing to look at. Not looked into what kind of efefrigeration I want (Oh the link you send will not open will look it up Thanks) as of yet. I know the Fleming use the four burner induction cooktop which we like. I am sure there will be things that will give us issues along the way, but in time that will be cover came.

Thank again for your thoughts.

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Old 04-09-2012, 02:49 PM   #75
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Wow! Sounds like you are going to have a AC power HOG. Most slips and marinas do not have that much AC power. Many only have 50 amps 120 volts AC which is not near enough for a Fleming power HOG. You might want to rethink that one?

The Eagle was an AC power hog when we bought her. Our first moorage had 30 amps which is like two small space heaters. After the 100th time resetting the breaker, we come to the conclusion something had to change. Out came the convection over and electric cook top which was replaced with propane, and we installed a Webasto diesel boiler heating and hot water which uses 2 amps AC instead of 50+ amps. The refrigeration on the back deck we are going to change to AC/DC/Propane so when at anchor will be on propane. In the dead of winter we use 20 amps 120 volts AC.

However, in the summer with the air conditioning running we are just under 50 maps. I been working on a crazy idea for air conditioning using the Webasto water pump, hose and exchangers. In stead of heating the coolant, freeze/cool the coolant. We have a big DC refrigeration box that that could be used. Then we would be able to get back down in the 20 to 30 amps range.

So if you are planning on being a live aboard and cruising you might want to re think thing about some things otherwise you will be running a gen set 24/7. Been there, done that, very noisy and expsensive.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:12 AM   #76
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"I am sure there will be things that will give us issues along the way, but in time that will be cover came."

ALL of these issues are better handled at the clean sheet of paper , rather than the crowbar , toss , and retrofit point.

Like NOW.

No noisemaker , NO HOT FOOD , double ugh.

There is always the kerosene Primus back up , but the danger is once you learn how easy and great a Primus actually is for most cooking the fancy stove and special pots will stand idle.

For inshore marina to marina cruising I suggest you look in the archives for Load Shedding.

This simple wiring addition will allow a really hungry boat live well on small electric.

Basically a ll the on board items get a priority concept.

Then a simple set of relays (Grainger) will allow the refrigerator to cut off the freezer when it comes on. The freezer will cut off a hot water heater when it comes on. A simple switch removes power from the load shedding relays when the 30KW noisemaker is in operation , but not the 6KW.

IN theory many boats could Live Well on a 15A power hose , with a large TRACE 4024 (or 2) and a really large set of house batteries.

Many marinas are not friendly to noisemaker operation of a boat in a slip.

Here either a dry stack , or really well engineered water lift muffler will be a big help.

FF

With this style setup
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:38 AM   #77
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Phil Fill. I agree that one has to look at what kind of amps on the AC side as well as the DC side that are needed to operate in the range one wants. Great point!! Looking at the over all picture is sometime hard until you get to the point where it is right in front of you.

All the fleming's I have been on 55 thru 75' has had it pro's and con's just like all the other Vessel I have been on. The 2 75's that I was on did not seem to have any issuse with the AC amps in port. But there again I did not check what the amp range was at the marina. That was my mistake, and something I need to look into. Thanks for pointing it out. Propane is always option just like DC refrigerator like FF said. Finding that Sweet Spot comes into play once again. Finding the right balance on all the power is key.

I Like your Idea on the air conditioning and it is not to crazy my Friend and I wish you the best of luck on it. Keep us posted on how it all works out.

Thanks

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Old 04-10-2012, 08:01 AM   #78
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FF. Right you are on a clean sheet of papper.. One reason why I am here is to pick the brians of smarter people then me on this subject. Like yourself and Phil, and others. The mapping out stage is being done now even before I place my order for the Vessel. All info at this stage is great info in helping to map everything out. I have many things to research, many shows to go too and many things to learn in between that time. As I said before. R&D is slow. That is why I started researching things well over a year ago. In the end it will be more then a 3 year project and I know when that end comes I will have the vessel that will fit us.

Thanks for you input FF.

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Old 04-11-2012, 06:23 AM   #79
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IF I were working out the vessel and her systems , my preference would be for a Silent Ship.

I lived aboard in a marina for decades and far and away prefer an anchorage to a dock with 100A - 240v power hose , and ZERO privacy.

A boat on the hook will swing naturally , reducing the need for a noisemaker and canned air for comfort.An entirely!!! different lifestyle.

IF the silent ship concept is used it has many upsides , and no real downside , when at the power hose, or with the noisemaker operating.

Underway on the main engine , almost all shipboard functions will require a cruise AC power package , along with BIG DC.

My preference would be an engine driven hyd. 6KW - 12KW (or ???) with a 300A 24V OTS alternator.On a commercial style engine frequently these can be drive pad mounted, no belts to maintain.

Only big DC can charge house batts properly and rapidly with a multi-stage V regulator.

Figure out the on board life style living design GOAL,
as even a circumnavigation is 90% in port .

And as many have posted the simpler you work out the systems ,
the less time and money spent on flying in mechanics with parts.

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Old 04-11-2012, 09:03 AM   #80
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F.F. Allvery good points and I do like the silent ship idea. What is your thoughts on this on the Dc side?

DC
Main ships system is 24V DC
12V DC available via two 20 amp DC-DC converters & 12V battery backup on
flybridge
Battery disconnect and selector switches accessible from outside e/room
House battery bank consisting of 12pcs 6 volt Lifeline AGM batteries connected
in series parallel to provide 1200 A/H’s capacity at 24 volts.
Two stacked 3500 watt Outback pure sine-wave inverters with 170 amp (@ 24
volts) battery charging capacity
Two additional high output auxiliary alternators on main engines, 140 amp @ 24
volts
Additional 24V DC battery banks for each engine/genset charged by MAN
original alternators plus additional dedicated battery charger
Switching allows paralleling of batteries
Battery Monitor for house bank
DC load distribution panel with breakers and meters back-lit with dimmer
Alarm panel for engine functions plus bilge, fire, raw water etc.
Repeater panel in crew cabin area

Thanks

H.Foster
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