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Old 04-02-2012, 02:23 PM   #41
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[QUOTE=hfoster;81234]Actic Travller..

You have a great point on the power plants. My main speed I would like to run is between 8 to 10 knots, but as we all know there will be times, one will need to hit flank speed to out run bad weather.


Having the ability to try and outrun bad weather is overrated in my book. On long crossings the best you will be able to do is to try to avoid the worst of a system, and you probably won't have the fuel reserve to run at speed for long. Long range passage planning, including using every available source of weather info, H.F. Fax, High Seas SSB voice broadcasts, XM weather, internet and the services of a shore based weather router will go much further to assure your comfort and safety than the ability to go 20% faster for a limited time. On coastal passages, better planning will eliminate allmost all of the need to try to out run a system. Are you willing to spend a huge amount of additional money for the bigger engines and the fuel they will use just to gain that minor amount of speed? I think it's far better to wait out bad weather. Spend the savings on a nice marina, a good restaurant and a rental car to explore inland.

Far more useful in my book are stabilizers. Stabilizers are the best toy we have aboard, followed by forward looking sonar. I wouldn't consider a coastal cruise, much less an ocean crossing without them.......Arctic Traveller
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Old 04-02-2012, 02:53 PM   #42
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Personally in 1994 we start the concept of our actual "trawler/passagemaker".
This 18 years old concept is not so far from the Dashw 64' (with unfortunately far less equipments)
But be sure always you will makes some mistakes during your choice and all choice are personals .
For example in our point of view
-two big 1550 hp for doing long passage it is not necessary
-more equipment it is always more potential trouble
-want to keep the same level of "comfort" at sea than at home it means also more potential trouble
- for tender we prefer in alloy than inflatable
-small draft it is one possibility to choose some new anchorage
-78' it is not difficult to handle for a couple (we had one hull of 83' with just 2 Perkins 185 hp average speed 11 knts) even in small place , but are you sure you will always need and use all this volume ?For example our actual boat is just 19,45m and we never use the 2 forwards cabins...may be I haave not enough (goods) friends !?
- a real "workshop" is a must
If your French is better than our English you can have a look at this adress where we make a list of our choices ....and mistakes!!
http://long-cours.62.over-blog.com/article-passagemaker-cherchez-l-erreur-77177400.html
Our boat is far less expensive than a 78', we want keept a very basic concept for two raisons :
- first we pretend for less troubles
- second (may be the trhu ) no more money !!
Sorry for our English , but be sure the right and perfect boat is alway ...the next one !
And for this raison youare lucky
The Crew of Hoa
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Old 04-02-2012, 03:51 PM   #43
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"If your French is better than our English you can have a look at this adress where we make a list of our choices ....and mistakes!!
http://long-cours.62.over-blog.com/article-passagemaker-cherchez-l-erreur-77177400.html"

Here's a French-to-English translation of longcours62's website. It's a very rough, but readable translation.

Passagemaker seek the error! - The blog of length-course
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:10 PM   #44
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hfoster:

Are you dealing with Burr Yachts in MD? Or is there a Burring Yachts as well?


Phil Fill:

Like your new avatar. It shows you actually do get out and about.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:32 PM   #45
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hfoster,

Have you followed Nordhavn 76 Eliana? It is the blog of couple, Rick and Debbie Heiniger, from the midwest and their "retired" life aboard their Nordhavn 76 Eliana. His Boat and Blog, as well as Ken Williams' blog (Home): Passagemaking with a Nordhavn... would be useful to you in reading about long passages.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:49 PM   #46
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how about a ocean alexander 65 or 74 with cats?????
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:16 AM   #47
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Frequently a boat this size will have a "get home " engine.

As a CPP is quite robust I would contemplate using the large noisemaker to power the shaft , but I would use the Hyd system as extra shaft power in the "outrun the storm " scene.

With the noisemaker powering the hyd system there would be NO few seconds of bow thruster time ,great while docking a larger boat. At 1800 most noisemakers will run a 25-40 hp thruster.

Same for windlass , no operating time limits , and an overload just stops the drum.

The all up displacement of the boat , divided by 2240 then multiplied by 3 will give a good estimate of HP required for SL 1.15 distance cruise.

SL is the sq rt of the actual LWL.

Multiply be 5 instead of 3 ,and that's about the largest engine that could be useful in displacement use..

If you will be choosing to overpower to be able to wallow up to "semi displacement" speeds , remember the SL 1.15 normal ocean cruise , and the HP required for that must not be such a small percentage of the rated power (even with the helpful CPP) that THE ENGINE SUFFERS FROM UNDERLOADING.

The origional Bede PASSAGEMAKER book has great tables to do good speed/range calculations.

No doubt the MANN folks will claim their fancy electronic fuel injection brain box will overcome the underloading problem . good luck.

If the engine is non mechanical , how many spare brain boxes will be aboard?

Lightning is everywhere , as are side strikes.

All engines have "sweet spots" in terms of noise and vibration , try to beg a boat with the engine you do select , and see how she feels at various RPM.

Have the installers select a gear reduction and prop diameter that cruises in the sweet spot. Otherwise the lowest RPM in the torque graph after the first RPM rise can be a goal. 1200 to 1400 will be preferred to 1800 with an over sized engine.

Some boats (European yards) have the smooth and silent down , so if the boat is great at all speeds , go ride in the engine space for a better knowledge base.

And remember what is NOT ON BOARD DOES NOT HAVE TO BE
BOUGHT, INSTALLED, MAINTAINED ,SERVICED, REPAIRED AND REPLACED.

Even on a larger boat KISS does work.

FF
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:37 AM   #48
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Longcourse.. Thanks for the input from the Crew. You bring up some good points and Thanks for the link as well... The more info one gets always seems to help.
Your English is not that bad. I have seen worst my Friend... Good luck to you and your Crew. Thanks again.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:37 AM   #49
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FlyWright.. Thanks for the Link.. Great reading.. Thanks you!
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:45 AM   #50
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F F... Great post my Friend.. That is some food for thought, that is for sure. Finding that Sweet spot is the goal. Not only for the power plant, but for the over all vessel it's self in it's over all operation of her. This one reason why I looking for all the input I can get.. Sure we all will make a mistake here and there, but a good foundation is what one needs. Thanks again for the great post!
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:29 AM   #51
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Arctic Traveller. Great points as well.. You are right about "Long range passage planning". You can really cannot out run a storm out in the deep blue. One reason why I do like the X7 radar is the 96 nm range is to give you time to plot around any bad weather and keeping intune with all the comms is a must as well on long range trips for the same reason. However, having the fuel onboard to get around bad weather is not a bad idea as well.. You never know how far one may have to go to get around it... That is my feeling anyways.. Everything haves it's pros and cons as we all know.

When I spoke of out running a storm I am thinking of being 30 or 50 nm off shore or so.. It really comes down to where one is at when you can and try this.

I steamed the Great Lake as I have said. Up here on the Lakes. The Lakes can be a bear at times. I have seen these Lakes go from 1 foot chops to 8 to 12 foot waves in less then a 10 minutes and the sky is bright and sunny. One good sign of that is watching the water.. You see it starting to turn green and if you are not in the right vessel, you need to it flank speed to get in before those waves kick up to bad. So that is the reason I used the trem "to out run a storm."

I agree with you on stabiliser.. Tell me what is your thoughts on STaR system with fin cutters in front of the stabilisers? Any thoughts?

Thanks for your input
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:50 AM   #52
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"Tell me what is your thoughts on STaR system with fin cutters in front of the stabilisers? Any thoughts?"

The gyroscope method has none of the downsides of thru the hull, systems.

On a grounding the setup has to be installed well enough not to bang a great big hole, it HAS happened on "brand name " boats.

In addition the maint looks to be 1/100th of active fins, tho I have not sailed aboard a gyro boat.

They are claimed to be great at anchor too!

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Old 04-03-2012, 11:48 AM   #53
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[QUOTE=FF;81409]"Tell me what is your thoughts on STaR system with fin cutters in front of the stabilisers? Any thoughts?"

I'm not sure what the STAR system is, but we added rounded kelp cutters infront of our stabilizer fin shafts. Prior to that, we were always picking up kelp and junk, but it has not been a problem since.

"The gyroscope method has none of the downsides of thru the hull, systems.On a grounding the setup has to be installed well enough not to bang a great big hole, it HAS happened on "brand name " boats."

THAT is a fact. I've seen a boat hit a piece of ice with a stabilizer fin that opened a big hole in the boat. If there had not been other boats in the area with highly trained and experienced engineers and gas powered pumps, the boat would be on the bottom now. The fins are designed to snap off if they impact something hard enough, but in a grounding I've seen more than one boat that had the shaft driven up into the hull leaving a big hole. We looked at installing a gyro system on one of our charter boats (over 100ft) but it would have required two of the biggest ones made and the cost was excessive. Instead we installed outriggers with fish, not something your average yacht want's to deal with.

Huge engines that are able to outrun a storm when you are within a few miles of a harbor might be a good thing once every few years, but if you really plan on crossing oceans, your total number of hours underway within a few miles of a harbor will be minimal. The large majority of your time underway will be far from a safe harbor. Meanwhile, when at displacement speed (95% of the time?) you will be likely chronically under-loading the engines which can drastically reduce their life. .....Arctic Traveller
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:27 PM   #54
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Thanks Arctic Traveller. Between your post and FF post I'm getting some great info... Thanks you both.

You have a great point on out running the storm as well.. Old habits and thinking do die hard.. As I said before. the v12 is the standard. I do have other options to look at. Bigger is not always better in all cases.. I think FF said it the best... Find that sweet spot. and finding that sweet spot for the over all preformence of the vessel is what I am aiming at for our needs.

The 2300nm or so trip to the Hawaii would be the longest trip at one time. That would be a 1 or 2 time trip we would make. Now in reading your posts along with others and doing some thinking and chatting with my wife that trip may be out of the picture. just due to the simply fact all that would be needed to take that kind of trip but still not out of the relm.
So thank you all for your input
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:43 AM   #55
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"Instead we installed outriggers with fish, not something your average yacht want's to deal with."

This seems to be because the folks that choose the fish wish to do it on the cheap.

Instead of $30-$50+K they want to get by for a couple of grand.
A bit of engineering and some boat bucks should make the use of flopper stoppers far less work.
Probably never will be a push one button deal, but lots easier is probably easy enough.

A yard that outfits commercial fish boats would be the guys to engineer the package.


"The 2300nm or so trip to the Hawaii would be the longest trip at one time"

Considering the winds the trip BACK from Hawaii would be the hassle. Either go an exrtra 1000 miles for more favorable winds or Punch Thru.

Many world cruisers figure 4000nm range as the most desirable.
The trip to the Galapagos then beyond seems to be the big tank requirement.

As this is a "once in a lifetime" deal, deck drums or a fuel bladder is the simple cure.

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Old 04-04-2012, 09:00 AM   #56
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Thanks FF. There are so many opations one must look at. And as we all know.. If there is a will there is a way on anything we do.. Deck drums and fuel bladder is always an opation as well. I do know one trip we will be taking for sure.. Is from Fl to Alaska. Many stops along the way and one great trip. On trips like that we will have 1 or 2 couples with us that is for sure. We are not the type that sits back and not use our vessel. We have it we use it as much as we can. When we look at the NH and KK Vessels both had outriggers systems on them.. They can be nice, but for me they are not my cup of tea and they add to the air daft as well. I like low profile vessel such as the Fleming but that is me. Both the NH and KK are find Vessels and for that matter so is the NW. But the water daft on those Vessel are more then the Fleming due to their full displacement hulls in the size range I want. I'm thinking have 1 or 2 years after making the some runs, we many such manke that run to Hawaii, after all... you crawl before you walk. Thanks again for your input F F.. And any more info you wish to share is always welcome.

Thanks
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:07 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hfoster View Post
Thanks FF. There are so many opations one must look at. And as we all know.. If there is a will there is a way on anything we do.. Deck drums and fuel bladder is always an opation as well. I do know one trip we will be taking for sure.. Is from Fl to Alaska. Many stops along the way and one great trip. On trips like that we will have 1 or 2 couples with us that is for sure. We are not the type that sits back and not use our vessel. We have it we use it as much as we can. When we look at the NH and KK Vessels both had outriggers systems on them.. They can be nice, but for me they are not my cup of tea and they add to the air daft as well. I like low profile vessel such as the Fleming but that is me. Both the NH and KK are find Vessels and for that matter so is the NW. But the water daft on those Vessel are more then the Fleming due to their full displacement hulls in the size range I want. I'm thinking have 1 or 2 years after making the some runs, we many such manke that run to Hawaii, after all... you crawl before you walk. Thanks again for your input F F.. And any more info you wish to share is always welcome.

Thanks
A trip from Florida to Alaska might seem like a long trip but in reality it is many short trips. It is Coastal Cruising. You could make that trip in many if not most of the boats that are owned by folks here on TF. Actually that trip is something I am seriously considering in my Bayliner 4788.

California to Hawaii is a whole different kind of trip requiring a whole different kind of boat, a Passagemaker.

In earlier posts the benefits and hinderances of large engines along with their faster speed potential was discussed. In a coastal cruising scenario the potential for faster cruise speeds can be very beneficial.

Here's an example...

In two weeks I am departing on a trip from Washington state to my home port in Alaska. One leg of the cruise is from Yakutat to Seward Alaska. This is a 320 NM open ocean crossing of the Gulf of Alaska. If we make 7 knots this crossing will take 45 hours. If we make 15 knots the crossing is shortned to 21 hours. It is easy to see that it might be beneficial to limit the time of this open ocean crossing. Larger engines make that possible.

In choosing a power package for your new boat, you should carefully evaluate the type of cruising that you will actually do, and choose an engine package to fit those needs. Just as importantly you should choose a boat with a hull form that fits your needs. If you are actually going to cross oceans then by all meand choose a boat that is suited to that task. If you are really going to be coastal cruising then choose a boat better suited for that task. Keep in mind that you can for a fee have a boat shipped to many cruising destinations eliminating the ocean crossings and all they entail.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:22 AM   #58
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Long reply so get a cup of coffee and get comfortable.


The Eagle hydraulics is powered by the gen set which powers the hydraulic bow thruster and the hydraulic get home. The hydraulic pump has an electric clutch and the variable PSI, so when not using it free wheels and when using the PSI or RPM can be adjusted. It has a 25 gallon tank so we can/have run it for hours at a time.

The Eagle is 40+ tons, powered by a single DD671 165 HP, hull cruises at 7 to 9 knots, 2+ miles per gallon at 1500 rpm. The Eagle is very stable as its been up/down the Pacific coast from Alaska to Mexico by previous owners, and sister boat made the crossing to Hawaii. We been out in 3 to 5 ft white caps with hardly getting any spray on the pilot house windows, and we have never had to stow/storage stuff. The thing I DISLIKE/HATE most is the HUGE bow wake of Bayliners, Oceans, FLEMING and most large semi displacements.

Most of the commercial boats are full displacement boats/trawlers, powered by a single engine or two small engines properly sized for the boat. So before you really decide take a walk through some pleasure and commercial yards and talk to the people that know. That is why we are moored on the commercial dock and every thing I have done t the boat and future will based on commercial not pleasure.

Expensive stabilizers do not work well on slow going boats. I had the representative out to look at the Eagle, both sais up front it was a waste of money at the slow trawler speed and the round hull angle. They both recommended Bilge Keel/Rolling chocks, fish stabilizers or more low ballast hanging from the keel. I prefer Passive stabilizers over Active. So what I plan on doing is adding Bilge Keels that will added ballast first which will reduce/slow the roll which are passive, which are less expensive and require NO activation.

As for draft a couple of ft may not make that much of a different, but having a show protected prop sure does. I have ground the Eagle 3 time and I am planning to be able to ground the Eagle several more time. As you head further north the tide swings become bigger, up to 20 ft, the bottom is hard and rocky with marina/yards hundred of miles apart, so many of the boats are capable of grounding.

The saying is the less experienced the captain/crew the more capable of boat required. So I need the most capable and safest boat I can afford, and the Eagle fits the bill.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:40 AM   #59
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Ksanders Great point... I guess what I am looking for is to have the best of both worlds. Long range and short. As I said.. If I the mood strike us go to Hawaii or to U.S. V. Islands lets say or just run up the east coast. So having the Vessel and the right systems to be flexiable enough to enter both worlds is the goal here. And to obtain this is kicking around ideas and getting opinions from great poeple like yourself and others is a get start to help me do this.

I spent years doing R&D in my company I owned. The things I learnd over the years were, listen to all opinions and never dismiss them until you have extracted all useful info from them. It is always slow going to find the amswers you are looking for, but once you do, format your project to fit the needs. Hence this what I am doing, so keep those thoughts and opinions coming my Friend.

I hope your trip is a great one for you and I will keep my fingers crossed on the system for you.

H.Foster
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:56 AM   #60
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Phil Fill.. Now that was some great intel my Friend. You broke it down and I like that. I will return to have a enough look at that vessel. I may have over look some things as you have point out in your post. I have said. One never does know what is out there. Sometimes it take 3 or 4 looks (if not more) at something to see the over all picture. This is why I am hear picking the brain of people that do know before we make up our minds.

Thanks!
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