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Old 12-18-2013, 11:00 PM   #1
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Have not seen a thread on this subject... If there has been one previously, then point me in the direction and I shall go forth and continue the due diligence in that heading... I have been looking at some of the many Hatteras yachts now available that I shall refer to as "vintage". This isn't about an engine retrofit or anything. It is about what or how one goes about establishing value. I have seen a range of pricing of the 48'-54' motor yachts from $100-$400K. Obviously (or so I thought) equipment and modern improvements would reflect differences in pricing. I recently sought the opinion of a respected internet acquaintance and receive a response that I was somewhat surprised by... It went more or less as follows - ------- "Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, “Why would anyone spend that kind of money on a boat of that age?” Look at what they spent and what they’re trying to get back. From their perspectives, lose, lose, lose. That’s the sort of project to be undertaken sanely only with a view toward longterm ownership, personal gratification, etc. Definitely not as part of any kind of rational marketing scheme. The price is easily $60,000 - $200,000 too high..." Beyond that, it was a 1980, 81 or an 1985 when they built it, it always will be. That will likely always be one of the first things you as a buyer notes. To find comparables to use for resale value analysis simply will not be possible. If it’s all as it appears, it’s probably worth considerably more other similar aged examples, but how much more and to whom? Almost certainly not to a lender or an insurer. Furthermore, if you follow the owners logic and agree that it is now a “custom” yacht due to improvements, etc., then you can expect, by definition, to find no comparable examples from that angle either. If you want to buy it and own it for at least a decade, then there are no right or wrong answers for you – other than, again, lenders and insurers. For you, it’ll be worth whatever it’s worth – to you." -------- From my perspective I only have experience with vintage autos to use as some sort of baseline when one considers the original cost of the car, and what has been done to it to improve upon the original OEM build. For a car or truck, the chassis establishes the vintage but it could be otherwise brand new in every other aspect. Engine, electronics, suspension, interior all would be considered with regard to trying to establish a new "value." Recognizing value is only what another party is wiling to pay, I am trying to figure out the economics of some of these older hulls being significantly upgraded and whether or not it is worthy of time and energy to try and establish a legitimate argument with the lender and insurer as to whether or not one can legitimately compare a modernized vessel to a hull that is still all original. Appreciate your thoughts.. We can determine my wisdom later....
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:41 PM   #2
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50K to 200K would be the range for those, IMO. Having just finished an exhastive search for my boat, there are really nice trawlers of that size in the 300K to 400K range that are half the age.

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Old 12-18-2013, 11:41 PM   #3
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We met a couple in Spanish Cay last year. They had 53 Hatt M/Y, they said it was the worst sea boat and would rock them to death.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:49 PM   #4
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We met a couple in Spanish Cay last year. They had 53 Hatt M/Y, they said it was the worst sea boat and would rock them to death.
That was one of the concerns I was wondering about. Seems like they would be susceptible to a lot of roll.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:50 PM   #5
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50K to 200K would be the range for those, IMO. Having just finished an exhastive search for my boat, there are really nice trawlers of that size in the 300K to 400K range that are half the age. Ted
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:02 AM   #6
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There was a thread recently with a YouTube video showing the re-power of a 53 Hatt with new Yanmars and gennies. I'm willing to bet that owner has significantly north of 400k in that 53'.

What does a brand new Hatt 60 MY cost? Nearest comp as they no longer make smaller motor yachts.

Re-fitting boats is not intended to turn a profit for the owner, they're labors of love. By the same token if you want a boat in re-fit condition expect to pay for it. If the asking price is too steep buy a cheap one and re-fit to taste but don't be surprised by the size of the yard bill. The banks and insurance companies understand better than boat owners that condition is everything.

As for the comment about Hatt's not being a good "sea boat", I can only say that a Nordhavn makes a terrible "picnic cruiser". Horses for courses and not everyone is "going to sea".
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:08 AM   #7
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As for the comment about Hatt's not being a good "sea boat", I can only say that a Nordhavn makes a terrible "picnic cruiser". Horses for courses and not everyone is "going to sea".
I was letting him know what I've heard, and of course I don't know his intentions of cruising. As for picnic cruising with the Nordy, if you consider hopping across the gulfsream and anchoring for lunch she's great.
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasnielsen View Post
Have not seen a thread on this subject... If there has been one previously, then point me in the direction and I shall go forth and continue the due diligence in that heading... I have been looking at some of the many Hatteras yachts now available that I shall refer to as "vintage".

This isn't about an engine retrofit or anything. It is about what or how one goes about establishing value. I have seen a range of pricing of the 48'-54' motor yachts from $100-$400K. Obviously (or so I thought) equipment and modern improvements would reflect differences in pricing.

I recently sought the opinion of a respected internet acquaintance and receive a response that I was somewhat surprised by... It went more or less as follows - ------- "Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, “Why would anyone spend that kind of money on a boat of that age?” Look at what they spent and what they’re trying to get back.

From their perspectives, lose, lose, lose. That’s the sort of project to be undertaken sanely only with a view toward longterm ownership, personal gratification, etc. Definitely not as part of any kind of rational marketing scheme. The price is easily $60,000 - $200,000 too high..." Beyond that, it was a 1980, 81 or an 1985 when they built it, it always will be.

That will likely always be one of the first things you as a buyer notes. To find comparables to use for resale value analysis simply will not be possible. If it’s all as it appears, it’s probably worth considerably more other similar aged examples, but how much more and to whom? Almost certainly not to a lender or an insurer.

Furthermore, if you follow the owners logic and agree that it is now a “custom” yacht due to improvements, etc., then you can expect, by definition, to find no comparable examples from that angle either. If you want to buy it and own it for at least a decade, then there are no right or wrong answers for you – other than, again, lenders and insurers. For you, it’ll be worth whatever it’s worth – to you." --------

From my perspective I only have experience with vintage autos to use as some sort of baseline when one considers the original cost of the car, and what has been done to it to improve upon the original OEM build. For a car or truck, the chassis establishes the vintage but it could be otherwise brand new in every other aspect. Engine, electronics, suspension, interior all would be considered with regard to trying to establish a new "value."

Recognizing value is only what another party is wiling to pay, I am trying to figure out the economics of some of these older hulls being significantly upgraded and whether or not it is worthy of time and energy to try and establish a legitimate argument with the lender and insurer as to whether or not one can legitimately compare a modernized vessel to a hull that is still all original. Appreciate your thoughts.. We can determine my wisdom later....
Paragraphs are good.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:13 AM   #9
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One of the biggest JOYs of an older boat is the builders didnt trust or kno that much about GRP.

These early boats , built when polly was about 17c a pound are heavy and thick..
This is GOOD long term for hull life. A bit more costly cruising on the pin, no problem at SL 1.Trawler style.

On inspected vessels ( kill over 6 at a time) a 400% margin requirement just means the boat is STIFF enough for long long service life.

The simplicity of early boats IF maintained means fewer repair bills.

As engines continue to get smaller and lighter , and folks realize they dont need a 3000lb engine for 10,000 -30,000 hours , transplants become easier to visualize.

Value to me ?

Electric toys ,,,ZERO

House crap dragged aboard ,,,ZERO Tho a microwave has its uses.

Teak or other eye candy external wood to maintain ,,Zero

Mechanical steering a plus , hyd steering a minus. Best AP service with mechanical.

Hyd windlass a plus along with hyd AC generation from the main engine and hyd bow thruster .
Electric stuff a minus.

I give a bonus for KISS and a big minus for complex , with no paperwork, thrown in by ignorant boat yard after boat yard with extra layers from owner DIY .
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:36 AM   #10
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Greetings,
Mr. t. Your acquaintance is absolutely correct... "value is only what another party is wiling to pay". That being said, some owners want to recoup a part of their "investment", while in spite of having cost the owner $$ are as Mr. FF puts it worth essentially zero. Be a realistic buyer and try to find a realistic seller.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:39 AM   #11
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Paragraphs are good.
Thank you!! I just stopped reading about 1/4 of the way through the original post. Maybe it's interesting, but too difficult to read......
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:12 AM   #12
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Paragraphs are good.

Not reposting the entire lengthy blurb would have been a much better idea.
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:24 AM   #13
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FF wrote:

Quote:
On inspected vessels ( kill over 6 at a time) a 400% margin requirement just means the boat is STIFF enough for long long service life .

For those interested in what an inspected vessel is and what standards or requirements apply, the link is to an excellent document prepared by the CG as a guide to those who wish to build a new boat or obtain a Certificate of Inspection (COI) for an existing boat.

I will refrain from making any other comment.
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:59 AM   #14
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Paragraphs are good.
Yes. Thanks, Andy, I could actually read your "paragraphed" version, but not the original...

Yes, Tex, buying (for example) an old $100K Hatt and doing $100K worth of work to bring it up to your standards... leaves you with a $105K Hatt.

OTOH, you'd have the boat/features/fixtures/etc. you want -- and everything would work. Lots of good to be said about "it all works." And your ride might be comparable in features and usability to a new model $2M Hatt.

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Old 12-19-2013, 08:14 AM   #15
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Requirements and Sensitivity Analysis

1. What do you want to do with the boat? (List them)

2. What conditions should it be required to handle? (List)

3. How much time will you spend on the boat?

4. How comfortable are you with the maintenance versus how much you are willing to pay someone else? (list systems you feel comfortable maintaining yourself)?

5. How much are you willing to pay for sales price and annual dockage, maintenance, and provisioning?

Rank all these things. High, Medium, Low. Then find the boats that match the best. Pick your favorite. Pay the man.
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Old 12-19-2013, 08:58 AM   #16
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Requirements and Sensitivity Analysis 1. What do you want to do with the boat? (List them) 2. What conditions should it be required to handle? (List) 3. How much time will you spend on the boat? 4. How comfortable are you with the maintenance versus how much you are willing to pay someone else? (list systems you feel comfortable maintaining yourself)? 5. How much are you willing to pay for sales price and annual dockage, maintenance, and provisioning? Rank all these things. High, Medium, Low. Then find the boats that match the best. Pick your favorite. Pay the man.
Thanks to all who have responded. My original posting seems to have lost it's formatting after an edit was made; sorry for it's length.

As Ben and others have suggested, like any tool, it is critical to understand how it will be used. I suspect I may be hedging my bets some as I continually redefine and consider what I "think" I want to use the boat for [today] and what [tomorrow's] needs may uncover after so many miles of use with the more I learn of coastal cruising under power ( my ocean experience is via sail for a few years as a crew hand from the east coast of FL throughout the Bahamas and Turks & Caicos Isles when I was a younger man. Wasn't my boat and I traveled with only a backpack then.) The challenge for me seems to be - budget; what's available; and what's realistic. I believe in due diligence but want to try and avoid waiting for the "perfect" boat. I.e., time on the water is more important to me than time spent at the dock dreaming the boat I want I can afford (now there's a dream! )

Thanks again for the insights...

Gary
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
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...buying (for example) an old $100K Hatt and doing $100K worth of work to bring it up to your standards... leaves you with a $105K Hatt.
Exactly. And yet a lot of sellers will imagine that they should be able to get $205k for the boat.
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:15 PM   #18
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Well, being I own one of those older boats, my view point might be one sided. Every three years we pull the boat, have the hull surveyed, and an in water survey/valuation done to insurance purposes, and sort of get an idea of value. The Eagle is present surveyed/valued and insured for is the same value for the last 10+ years. Like most things the value drops just so far, and over the years there are less and less comparable boats on the market.

I realize to will take a buyer that is looking for a boat like the Eagle, it may take years, but with each passing year there are less boats, the demand for fuel efficient trawler keep going up, and we will be in no hurry to sell it as its paid for. The biggest expense is moorage, insurance, heat/diesel, then maintenance. 18 year ago no boat wanted to be called a trawler, now almost every boat is trying to be called a trawler. So itís supply and demand. Demand is going up and the supply is going down.
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:20 PM   #19
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Unless you build the boat yourself the hard part will be judging the Requirements vs the Desirements.

Just make a list of DEAL KILLERS , and plan on compromising all the rest.
The above was taken from a pre-purchase thread but I couldn't resist reposting here -
"requirements versus desirements" . . . . love it! Thanks "FF"
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:44 PM   #20
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FF wrote:

Quote:
On inspected vessels ( kill over 6 at a time) a 400% margin requirement just means the boat is STIFF enough for long long service life .


To RickB: thanks for the decode. I have absolutely no idea what "kill over 6 at a time" has to do with "400% margin requirement..."

I, also, will not add additional comment to this thread.

Regards,

Pete
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