Sounds like an ideal arrangement... but
I'm wondering how many have successfully negotiated 2-3 mos of use w/o full payment?
I expe t this is not common but wonder IF it is posdible?
Maybe I'm just out of touch???
Opinion- accepting a new boat
- Thread starter PKPet
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I'm wondering how many have successfully negotiated 2-3 mos of use w/o full payment?
I expe t this is not common but wonder IF it is posdible?
Maybe I'm just out of touch???
adornato
Senior Member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 121
- Location
- USA
- Vessel Name
- Sarah McLean
- Vessel Make
- Mainship 30 Pilot
survey a new boat? YES
i would hire steve d'antonio even if i had to fly him to the PNW to do so.
I have attended three of his seminars and have subscribed to his blog for years.
there is no doubt he will find some things that need revision or improvement.
no personal conflicts. just my opinion
bruce adornato
san francisco
past owner kk42, sabre 42, true north 38
currently mainship 30
i would hire steve d'antonio even if i had to fly him to the PNW to do so.
I have attended three of his seminars and have subscribed to his blog for years.
there is no doubt he will find some things that need revision or improvement.
no personal conflicts. just my opinion
bruce adornato
san francisco
past owner kk42, sabre 42, true north 38
currently mainship 30
All these comments seem to be tailored to the North American recreational market. Things become even more complicated and challenging with overseas shipyards, everything from pre-qualification of the yard, to regular inspections, to final delivery/seatrials/commissioning/warranty.
If a boat is being built with CE Certification, would those applicable inspections be considered satisfactory, in reference to what is being discussed on this thread? Has anyone gone through this and think that hiring an additional surveyor (beyond the CE surveyor) is superfluous?
If a boat is being built with CE Certification, would those applicable inspections be considered satisfactory, in reference to what is being discussed on this thread? Has anyone gone through this and think that hiring an additional surveyor (beyond the CE surveyor) is superfluous?
Kit_L
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2016
- Messages
- 476
- Location
- Australia
- Vessel Name
- Suu Kyi
- Vessel Make
- Custom 40' catamaran
I devoured all of boatpoker's articles (Marine Surveyor, Port Credit Marine Surveys, Toronto, Ontario) and many of Steve DAntonio's before buying Sea Biscuit (used, not new, but the principles are identical). I hired a surveyor remotely (boat was 1,200km away) and had the boat pulled out twice, both the survey, and a bottom clean, antifoul, and new anodes following the survey. All was money well spent.
My diesel mechanic/yachtie friend and I serviced the raw water side of the Perkins 6.3544 and many other routine maintenance tasks and we drove her back.
I mention all this because now, over six week later, I am still finding things that need repair, some quite serous, and that's only because I have been living aboard pretty much full time since the trip back. All this has taught me so much!
If I ever buy a new boat, I will hire the best surveyor I can find. Why? Because it's a bit like writing (I write books): you CANNOT proofread your own work. And builders of any kind will always miss things because they are too close to them and have been seeing them for 12 months or more. Builders here, if small scale, are truly proud of their work, and in my experience if they miss things, it's not because they are trying to save money or be deceitful, it's because they simply can't see some of the details. This is 100% human, in my view. A good surveyor will take a fresh look, and see different things.
More. If I ever commission a boat, I will have the same surveyor examine in logical stages (because so many things on modern boats are covered up as the build advances); luckily all parts of Sea Biscuit's hull are visible. And most definitely have the surveyor on the sea trial.
Many words, but there you are. Thanks again to boatpoker and Steve DAntonio.
My diesel mechanic/yachtie friend and I serviced the raw water side of the Perkins 6.3544 and many other routine maintenance tasks and we drove her back.
I mention all this because now, over six week later, I am still finding things that need repair, some quite serous, and that's only because I have been living aboard pretty much full time since the trip back. All this has taught me so much!
If I ever buy a new boat, I will hire the best surveyor I can find. Why? Because it's a bit like writing (I write books): you CANNOT proofread your own work. And builders of any kind will always miss things because they are too close to them and have been seeing them for 12 months or more. Builders here, if small scale, are truly proud of their work, and in my experience if they miss things, it's not because they are trying to save money or be deceitful, it's because they simply can't see some of the details. This is 100% human, in my view. A good surveyor will take a fresh look, and see different things.
More. If I ever commission a boat, I will have the same surveyor examine in logical stages (because so many things on modern boats are covered up as the build advances); luckily all parts of Sea Biscuit's hull are visible. And most definitely have the surveyor on the sea trial.
Many words, but there you are. Thanks again to boatpoker and Steve DAntonio.
Adagio43
Veteran Member
Bacchus,
It s possible and I did it. I contracted for a new 44’ offshore sailboat from a US company to be built in mainland China. It was a fantastic boat that I sailed transatlantic and subsequent owners sailed both transatlantic and is now in the middle of a transpacific voyage.
I visited the factory in China and had a complete survey done when it was delivered on the east coast. I also withheld $10,000 pending my final acceptance in the US. The $10,000 was never paid and I’m guessing another $10-15,000 was spent by the dealer in correcting a number of issues from electronics, to interior woodwork failures and fixing leaks etc. This may seem like a lot of money, it is, but when you star to look at labor costs in the states to fix factory problems that don’t start to show up until the boat is actually used.
What was particularly frustrating was local electronics installers not be interested in doing warranty work on builder installed equipment. Yes the builder was certified by the manufacturer but the local guys take care of their customers first.
If the manufacturer isn’t willing to put his money behind his product then it’s time to look for another manufacturer.
It s possible and I did it. I contracted for a new 44’ offshore sailboat from a US company to be built in mainland China. It was a fantastic boat that I sailed transatlantic and subsequent owners sailed both transatlantic and is now in the middle of a transpacific voyage.
I visited the factory in China and had a complete survey done when it was delivered on the east coast. I also withheld $10,000 pending my final acceptance in the US. The $10,000 was never paid and I’m guessing another $10-15,000 was spent by the dealer in correcting a number of issues from electronics, to interior woodwork failures and fixing leaks etc. This may seem like a lot of money, it is, but when you star to look at labor costs in the states to fix factory problems that don’t start to show up until the boat is actually used.
What was particularly frustrating was local electronics installers not be interested in doing warranty work on builder installed equipment. Yes the builder was certified by the manufacturer but the local guys take care of their customers first.
If the manufacturer isn’t willing to put his money behind his product then it’s time to look for another manufacturer.
I did not question withholding a significant amt pending trial/ survey / acceptance.
What I wondered about was 2-3 mos of running by purchaser prior to release of final payment. It didnt sound like that was your situation.
CE certification is valuable in its own right, however, like ABYC Standards, it cannot regulate for general boat building know-how and skills. I routinely inspect vessels built to CE, Transport Canada, Au/NZ, ABS, as well as ABYC/NMMA standards. Those standards include certain mandates for the gear that's used (CE calls for metal bowls on all primary fuel filters, I actually consider that a detriment, Au/NZ electrical standards call for a disconnect switch located at every AC-powered appliance, fan, pump, compressor etc, that is, IMO, advantageous, ABS calls for check valves in overboard discharges, that can make for bulky plumbing), but they don't regulate attention to detail, thoughtful layout of equipment for access and maximum utilization of space, proper battery bank sizing, selection of the highest quality and best-supported equipment, proper fiberglass core closeout, general neatness in wiring and plumbing and a host of other details.
Again, while CE certification can add value to a vessel, it's not a gate keeper when it comes to overall quality.
I wrote an article on Standards Compliance, including CE, for Fleming's in house "Venturer" magazine. While those are available on line here https://www.flemingyachts.com/Venturer-Magazine the issue that contains that article isn't; if anyone wants a copy email katie@stevedmarine.com and she'll send you a PDF. While I'm a strong advocate of standards compliance, you can build a poor quality boat that is compliant, it's by far not the last word in boat building. You need to possess a host of other skills, beyond knowing how to comply with CE or other standards, and experience to build a good boat.
In the next few months I'll be in Taiwan, China and Malaysia inspecting new builds, some of which will be CE Certified, and some ABS, while others will also meet select, agreed upon ABYC Standards. For a new build, determining what standards the vessel will meet, is a discussion that should occur before signing any agreements, and before any funds exchange hands.
Nepidae
Senior Member
Just in case you don't know who Steve D is, makes it hard to find him, his name is Steve DAntonio.
You need either him or someone like him to check over the whole boat before you accept it.
I can almost guarantee that there will be something expensive which needs to be fixed, replaced or changed that if the builder doesn't do it, you will have to.
Steve can also help you with what the builder or anyone else involved with the boat is responsible for during the warranty period.
You're spending the money to buy new, call Steve and make sure you are getting your money's worth.
You need either him or someone like him to check over the whole boat before you accept it.
I can almost guarantee that there will be something expensive which needs to be fixed, replaced or changed that if the builder doesn't do it, you will have to.
Steve can also help you with what the builder or anyone else involved with the boat is responsible for during the warranty period.
You're spending the money to buy new, call Steve and make sure you are getting your money's worth.
The bottom line- know your builder and the quality of the boat that is being built. Inspect the product to insure the quality of the build. Before you go into production make sure the naval architectural plans are going to create the boat you want. Thanks for all the helpful feedback.
FF
Guru
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 22,552
"And builders of any kind will always miss things because they are too close to them and have been seeing them for 12 months or more."
Folks that purchase new RV should keep this in mind.Although RV are assembled in days , not months.
Simplest is to go to the dealer and camp out for 2-3 days , using every system installed to be sure its installed and works properly.
Folks that purchase new RV should keep this in mind.Although RV are assembled in days , not months.
Simplest is to go to the dealer and camp out for 2-3 days , using every system installed to be sure its installed and works properly.
[QUOTE I wrote an article on Standards Compliance, including CE, for Fleming's in house "Venturer" magazine. While those are available on line here https://www.flemingyachts.com/Venturer-Magazine the issue that contains that article isn't; if anyone wants a copy email katie@stevedmarine.com and she'll send you a PDF.[/QUOTE]
The article is available on Fleming's website, my error. You can access it here https://view.flipdocs.com/?ID=10001070_663244&P=0#4
It begins on page 50.
The article is available on Fleming's website, my error. You can access it here https://view.flipdocs.com/?ID=10001070_663244&P=0#4
It begins on page 50.
Carlr219
Member
New Boat Surveyor Suggestion
I'll be taking delivery on a Fleming 58 around the end of the year. Anyone have any thought on a new boat surveyor knowledgeable in this brand in the Annapolis area?
Thank you, Carl
I'll be taking delivery on a Fleming 58 around the end of the year. Anyone have any thought on a new boat surveyor knowledgeable in this brand in the Annapolis area?
Thank you, Carl
Congratualtions. I delivered one of those many times over several years for a well known owner. If I ever win the lottery ..............
Congratulations. I took hull #3 from Southampton, UK to Helgoland, Germany a few years ago, the conditions were horrendous, but the vessel handled it very well. You can read about it here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FLEMING-58.pdf
Some more photos from the passage here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/photo-gallery/ under "Southampton, Helgoland and Bremen"
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