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Old 02-26-2015, 11:00 AM   #21
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ok operating costs...


My wife goes with me in our power boat.

My wife says there is no way she would go with me in the sail boat parked right next to us.

That means operating costs in the power boat are higher.

And rental fees in the sail boat would be higher
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:01 AM   #22
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But how do you react when you see something or someone posting something that is or could be dangerous? Some of the suggestions on here absolutely boggle my mind! (But I keep coming back for more...)
There is no absolute what is or could be dangerous....

What drives me crazy is people who think something is dangerous from their lazy boy and have never tried a drink with only 2 ice cubes in it instead of 3.

Nothing in life is totally safe and ABYC rules are written for the fool not th diligent. Citing them is great...but if you think you have to live by them is a joke...too bad insurance companies abide by rules and not people...such is life.


Warn people of your real life experience...but to tell someone something is dangerous and not be that person or how they manage their life, boat...and to recommend theory over practical experience is what these forums are for...any kid can read a book and follow rules....living life takes an adult.
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:05 AM   #23
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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? You mean not everything written here is true? What is a wannabee to do?
Be very cautious and if the subject is important to you, confirm the info with other sources.

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Old 02-26-2015, 11:10 AM   #24
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Be very cautious and if the subject is important to you, confirm the info with other sources.

Thank you. I was just being a Smart A... this morning. I am a born skeptic so I confirm everything. It's a curse sometimes and my admiral hates it! She is ready, fire, aim!
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:13 AM   #25
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Funny, because of my background it didnt take long to figure out what posts contained the most truth.


After owning 5 boats in a lifetime and putting about 100 hrs a year on them and cruising 30 miles a weekend, or those that farm out 90% of their work can offer quite a bit to any thread...but probably were in a different league as other posters.
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Old 02-26-2015, 12:07 PM   #26
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the post significance ratio entertainment/learning my guess 90/10 The post reality ratio the real thing / horse poop my guess 70/30 Each reader to apply their own ratio and only a fool's fool would take it all as gospel.
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Old 02-26-2015, 12:48 PM   #27
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Everything is relative. What that means is that for every absolute, an exception can be found.

So I find postings here most helpful, when they are qualified and not stated as absolutes, so that it helps me frame the reality.
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Old 02-26-2015, 12:58 PM   #28
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I had this discussion a few years ago with my sailing friends. We didn't discuss items like dodgers and travelers, but we focused on sails vs trawler fuel. They said they need to replace their sails every 8-10 years at a cost of around $8000. At the time, I was burning through $1000 of fuel per year so we were pretty equal. Now in retirement, I'm pumping $1800-2000 per year so it tips in the sailboat's favor.

But I place a huge value on:

1. cruising without a list,
2.cruising with the ease of pushing the throttles forward to travel in a straight line and
3. cruising in the comfort of the pilothouse out of the wind, sun, rain and spray.

If I had to go through all that sailboaters endure to enjoy time on the water, I'd stay ashore and wouldn't own a boat. So to me, the price difference is not even a factor in my decision on boat selection. It's power or it's no boat. Sailboating was never an option I'd consider.
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Old 02-26-2015, 01:04 PM   #29
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Oh, for the record, on our 50ft sailboat we burn 2 gal/hr to make 5-6 knots. On our Trawler we're burning 6.5-6.8 gal/hr to make 7.8 to 8 kts. Not including cost of running the genset. So right off the bat, even assuming I'm under power at all times with the sailboat, it's still more for the trawler. Tack on maintenance of larger and more complex systems and I don't see how it won't be more.

Could getting carbon sails replaced tip the scales, Sure, but who would cruise with them anyway. I could bottom paint the trawler in gold leaf too
I'm very interested in this discussion because I'm looking at buying a boat in a few years for family long distance cruising and have a history in the Sailboat area. For family cruising I prefer the more open (i.e. windows) and weather protection (pilot house/cabin) of a power boat, but can also enjoy sailing but perhaps not as much in bad weather.

If the yearly operational cost is close - as it seems it might be with the longer, thinner designs like the Dashew FPB and assuming depreciation would be similar on the sailboat and powerboat - then I'd prefer to go with the power.

But I've not done the full financial analysis - and as people have mentioned its really going to come down to the assumptions you make in the financial model - but from Dashew's calculations it seems so firmly to fall into the camp of the powerboat being more cost effective longer term.

I'm just wondering why so many people here seem to believe that the Dashew numbers are wrong. Is he too aggressive on the replacement of all the gear on a specific schedule (sails, etc.) or is it because he's doing offshore sailing and therefore he wants to remove as much risk as possible in the gear side of things so he's very regimented on his upkeep schedule on the sailboat.

Or, is it because the Beowulf 70 foot sailboat that he's using as a comparison is so much more expensive than most people's sailboats that we'd realistically be comparing a power boat against.

Any opinions on this?
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Old 02-26-2015, 01:08 PM   #30
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I once made the mistake of suggesting that the choice of power over sail was the lazy way to get on the water. Maybe a motor sailor with full electric furling sails is a good compromise?
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Old 02-26-2015, 01:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by LRC58Fan View Post
I'm very interested in this discussion because I'm looking at buying a boat in a few years for family long distance cruising and have a history in the Sailboat area. For family cruising I prefer the more open (i.e. windows) and weather protection (pilot house/cabin) of a power boat, but can also enjoy sailing but perhaps not as much in bad weather.

If the yearly operational cost is close - as it seems it might be with the longer, thinner designs like the Dashew FPB and Artnautica - and assuming depreciation would be similar on the sailboat and powerboat - then I'd prefer to go with the power.

But I've not done the full financial analysis - and as people have mentioned its really going to come down to the assumptions you make in the financial model - but from Dashew's calculations it seems so firmly to fall into the camp of the powerboat being more cost effective longer term.

I'm just wondering why so many people here seem to believe that the Dashew numbers are wrong. Is he too aggressive on the replacement of all the gear on a specific schedule (sails, etc.) or is it because he's doing offshore sailing and therefore he wants to remove as much risk as possible in the gear side of things so he's very regimented on his upkeep schedule on the sailboat.

Or, is it because the Beowulf 70 foot sailboat that he's using as a comparison is so much more expensive than most people's sailboats that we'd realistically be comparing a power boat against.

Any opinions on this?
I think the Dashew numbers were in the ballpark. he compared too expensive, long boats.

The only figure I question was the cost his cost of $2 per nm. I think $3 is more like it using his numbers and $4/gal fuel.

And that to me is a big deal because then the cost of the Dashew boat is at best three times my KK42.

ANd my trans-Atlantic trip, instead of costing $4k, would cost $12k and

At that point, I'd be sitting at home polishing my Dock Queen.
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Old 02-26-2015, 01:54 PM   #32
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I think the Dashew numbers were in the ballpark. he compared too expensive, long boats.

The only figure I question was the cost his cost of $2 per nm. I think $3 is more like it using his numbers and $4/gal fuel.

And that to me is a big deal because then the cost of the Dashew boat is at best three times my KK42.

ANd my trans-Atlantic trip, instead of costing $4k, would cost $12k and

At that point, I'd be sitting at home polishing my Dock Queen.
Bravo!!!

How can we even talk about being efficient (in terms of $$ per NM) while sitting in a million dollar plus boat.

Your KK42 I would argue provides three types of efficiency. Initial purchase, lifecycle costs, and operating costs.

With most peoples cruising style being much more time in ports, actually getting off the boat and seeing the places they pull into, rather than braving the high seas, I see a comfortable, reasonably price, reasonably efficient boat offering true efficiency or "value"

Or pur another way you can buy a heck of allot of fuel, I would argue more than a lifetimes fuel with the difference in boat prices of say a Dashew and a KK42
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Old 02-26-2015, 01:55 PM   #33
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Sailing was a past phase of my life, without regret. Life was much simpler then. "Trawlers" is the current phase.
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Old 02-26-2015, 02:40 PM   #34
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Im sure many will agree that there is something about sailing that you cannot put a price on. I'm not sure there are many things in life I have experienced as truly fulfilling as making a deep water passage under sail. Sure I love my trawler, but I long for the day when I have the time to pursue trans-ocean voyages in another sailboat.
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Old 02-26-2015, 04:14 PM   #35
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...I'm not sure there are many things in life I have experienced as truly fulfilling as making a deep water passage under sail...
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Old 02-26-2015, 04:19 PM   #36
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I'm very interested in this discussion because I'm looking at buying a boat in a few years for family long distance cruising and have a history in the Sailboat area. For family cruising I prefer the more open (i.e. windows) and weather protection (pilot house/cabin) of a power boat, but can also enjoy sailing but perhaps not as much in bad weather.
I would rather be in a sailboat in bad weather than in my trawler. I would prefer being at a bar, near a dock, than either in the sail boat or the trawler ultimately.

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I'm just wondering why so many people here seem to believe that the Dashew numbers are wrong. Is he too aggressive on the replacement of all the gear on a specific schedule (sails, etc.) or is it because he's doing offshore sailing and therefore he wants to remove as much risk as possible in the gear side of things so he's very regimented on his upkeep schedule on the sailboat.
The comparison for those two vessels may have worked out as they have, but I don't think they are indicative of what many other comparisons would show. I believe Eyschulman, Larry M's, and my experience are more indicative of what a majority of similar sail v. trawler comparisons would show. If you're strictly talking about operating costs, the fuel burn on the trawler comes up a loser. Tack on larger and more complex systems and it only increases the gap. Maintaining rigging and replacing sails every what 7-10 yrs won't close that gap entirely. And lets face it: Fuel won't get much cheaper, and probably will not stay at these prices forever. The more fuel costs, the more the sailboat comes ahead.

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Or, is it because the Beowulf 70 foot sailboat that he's using as a comparison is so much more expensive than most people's sailboats that we'd realistically be comparing a power boat against.
I don't think your operating costs increase linearly as the vessel gets bigger and a boat that size has little relevance when compared against operating costs of 30-40-or even 50 footers. I also think there are many variables missing. For example, as the boats age, what would it cost to redo the gelcoat or paint. Look at how much more trawler area there is to do. (Did someone else make the same point?).

Well I'm sure I've said enough that many will disagree with. I'll go back to that scotch now
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:18 PM   #37
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I would rather be in a sailboat in bad weather than in my trawler. I would prefer being at a bar ... Well I'm sure I've said enough that many will disagree with. I'll go back to that scotch now

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Old 02-27-2015, 04:24 PM   #38
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Please allow me to introduce myself...

Hey i still own a sailboat, she's for sale, but for now still ours. And besides, search your feelings, you know this to be true.

ok that's all the bad references I can come up with. Got a date with the wife. Gotta boo-boo. (who knew, I had one more)
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