Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-29-2017, 12:19 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Stickman's Avatar
 
City: Charleston
Country: US
Vessel Name: THIRD CHILD
Vessel Model: KADEY KROGEN 48AE-0061
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 73
"old" vs "needs replacing"- how to price out a used trawler

Looking at single engine trawlers 38-47 ft, used. Moving up from 45 yrs of boat ownership from 14-29 ft, outboard and sail. Sporadic trips on 40-70 ft motor and sail, but never primarily responsible for their operation and maintenance.

Have not previously owned a boat (other than a Boston Whaler hull) that was > 10 years old. Particularly when it came to offshore fishing boats, I could be accused of having redundant systems and replacing systems prematurely to avoid failure when far from home/shore.

When looking at single diesel boats 10-25 years old, when do you roughy assume that systems will be replaced (assuming good maintenance, but all systems eventually fail or are out-dated functionally)?

Trawlers in this age range have bow thrusters, windlasses, AC/Heat systems, autopilots, refrigerators/freezers, many pumps, many hoses, hydraulics, tanks.
Assuming good maintenance, is there estimable life cycles for the many systems beyond the hull-decking-engines?

Trying to estimate the purchase "value" of used boats, knowing that there will be costs to making her reliable for offshore (short) passages.

I plan to keep her near coastal the first 1-2 years while I learn to handle her and
trouble shoot the many systems.
__________________
Advertisement

Stickman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 01:13 PM   #2
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,138
Very tough to do. One can look at hour meters and assume high hours means near end of life. One can see almost no hours and find stuff that is wasted from lack of use. Also, things can be fine during seatrial and survey, only to fail on the cruise home.

To me, heat / ac, electronics, and electric pumps (bilge, water, head, etc.) Have zero value after 7 to 10 years. They may last longer, but that's your choice as to replace them now or when they fail.

Ted
__________________

__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 01:20 PM   #3
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: ACIW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,105
One issue is how much time will you spend about and how convenient is it to go without one of those systems working in the middle of the night or a short voyage?
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 01:26 PM   #4
Guru
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Country: US
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,433
If you're running older engines in need of overhaul, you may be better off with twins.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 01:26 PM   #5
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,784
My 33 year old boat was fairly original when I purchased it 3-4 years ago. It had been maintained relatively well from what I could tell, and from what the surveyor reported, but was equipped with all original equipment other than some electronics.

I have rebuilt or replaced most of the mechanical and electrical components on the boat over the past 3 years. I also like things to be dependable so perhaps did more than absolutely necessary. I was never completely comfortable taking my family offshore relying on a 30 year old salt water cooled engine. I a way I was glad when I found the engine had major issues and needed to be replaced.

Since owning the boat, I've replaced: engine, gearbox, prop, anchor windlass, thru-hulls & seacocks, fuel tanks, 90% of wiring, most of the electronics, all sail rigging, bilge pumps, hot water heater, rebedded all deck fittings. The only original gear is the hull, stove, fresh water pump, toilet, prop shaft, rudder.

I'd estimate that much of the mechanical gear has a 30 - 40 year life span IF cared for properly. Your mileage may vary.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 01:43 PM   #6
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct/Punta Gorda, Fl
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Atlas Pompano 23
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,554
It varies with the system:

Engines like the Ford Lehman can be kept going almost indefinitely usually with just fixing or replacing peripheral marine parts.

Some transmissions like the Velvet Drive can be overhauled yourself for $100 in parts or sent out for a full overhaul for 1/4 of new, so they certainly have value.

Other mechanical systems like windlasses can also be kept going indefinitely with motor brush replacement or even rewinding even if no longer supported by the manufacturer. And they often are more robust than their current replacements so they still have value.

Electronics are a different story. A 30 year old Roberts autopilot might still work but if the main circuit board fails it can't be repaired so it is toast. The hydraulic pump might continue to work forever so even a 30 year old pilot has some small value, not to mention the installation already has been done.

CRT radars have no value. LCD chartplotter/radar displays that are more than 15 years old don't have much if any value. Newer has more features and integration. But replacing with new can be done for almost the cost of the unit. Installation should be minimal.

So as you can see even a 30 year old system has quite a bit of value compared with a boat with nothing that requires significant installation cost to add it.

Refrigeration and gensets are somewhere in between engines and electronics- it generally isn't worth it to overhaul one, but if it is running well, it might continue to run for a long time.

David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 01:55 PM   #7
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,023
My biggest concern would be fuel tank(s). If they start leaking, you have a real big problem -- not just repair costs, by contamination liability if much of anything gets pumped overboard, and that liability may easily exceed the value of most any recreational boat.

My last boat had 500 gallon metal tanks outboard of the main engines. One time, I received an after-hours emergency call from the dockmaster that I was pumping diesel overboard. The immediate solution was to shut off the bilge pump, but I scrambled for a more permanent solution, only to learn that the engines have to come out to access the fuel tanks, unless I want to cut a whole (or two) in the side of the boat. Fortunately, it turned out that a mechanic had disconnected a fuel line to the genset and allowed fuel to siphon back into the bilge. In any event, I have never looked at fuel tanks the same. Now I can't help but see them as a disaster waiting to happen -- especially the metal ones. The configuration on my current boat is integral fiberglass. The main tanks are reasonably accessible. I would look for something like that if I were buying another boat (new or used).
MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 02:24 PM   #8
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 16,521
I give most equipment on a boat a 7 to 12 year life. Once beyond the first life, it will cost you nearly replacement value over each future life. Now, there are exceptions. Engines probably have the longest lives of anything on the boat, but still a lot of parts that will be replaced.

There are a couple of other factors. Cost wise will it be paid or DIY? Huge difference.

Then how do you value your time?

Last, how much do you value your boating? Anything can be fixed they say with time and money. Every time I read that a boat is "on the hard" all i can think is that they aren't boating. Some really enjoy working on the boat when it's on land and seem to enjoy the work as much as the boating. So, it's a matter of personal tolerance. Just don't overlook the costs of your time in doing repairs and maintenance of the value of lost boating opportunity.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 04:50 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
IntervaleII's Avatar
 
City: Tokyo, Japan / Tampa, Florida / Washington, Virginia
Country: Japan / United States
Vessel Name: Mondai Nai
Vessel Model: Nordhaven 55 - 45
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 297
Send a message via Skype™ to IntervaleII
Not sure you can put a age limit. It all depends on the quality of the build and how it was maintained. I just sold my 40 year old Hatteras 48 LRC. Was practically new with all updated systems, high quality build, and well maintained. Look for the type of boat you want and expand your search, you may be surprised. There are many high quality built vessels out there.
IntervaleII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 05:36 PM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Stickman's Avatar
 
City: Charleston
Country: US
Vessel Name: THIRD CHILD
Vessel Model: KADEY KROGEN 48AE-0061
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 73
Thanks for the input. I was specifically trying to price out the value of a used boat factoring cost of systems I'd replace in first months- if the components were approaching expected longevity.
This assumes hull and superstructure, and engines, have no issues on survey.

One boat I'm considering is 15 yrs old, as the model is no longer made. The closest new model is > 3x the cost.

Appreciate the commentary.
Stickman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 06:30 PM   #11
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 15,657
It's amazing to me that so many here will need the latest anchor, electronics, autopilot, stove and/or heater and many other things. Gotta have the latest and newest stuff.
But then when the question of engines comes up most all talk about nothing but rebuilding the old FL's. And they wer'nt an outstanding engine in 1950. It's like rebuilding a 1950 Plymouth engine instead of finding a good new engine. I sold my 40 yr old Perkins engine and bought a new Mitsu. I was moving to Alaska and anticipated being far out into the wilderness even by Alaskan standards and could'nt see doing it w a 40yr old engine. Another Willard owner w an old Perkins had his crankshaft break half way up Chatham Strait. I am glad I bought the new engine now. However on the other hand the old Perkins that I took out of my boat wasn't really bad at all. I sold it to a skipper w a 40' sailboat for auxillary power. It's probably still in his boat.
And rebuilds aren't cheap. Probably most rebuilds are well over half the cost of new. However that's just a guess.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 06:30 PM   #12
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 16,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
Thanks for the input. I was specifically trying to price out the value of a used boat factoring cost of systems I'd replace in first months- if the components were approaching expected longevity.
This assumes hull and superstructure, and engines, have no issues on survey.

One boat I'm considering is 15 yrs old, as the model is no longer made. The closest new model is > 3x the cost.

Appreciate the commentary.
Having no issues on survey doesn't guarantee you won't need to spend shortly after. Just a simple example: Engines run perfectly. However, they have 1950 hours on them and some major service is on their maintenance recommendations for 2000 hours. Now you have to decide whether to follow the recommended maintenance schedule or wait for problems. The point is that while you want to find engines that survey well, as they age, all of them will require some increased maintenance.

In looking at the 15 year old boat, you have to decide what value it carries to you. 1/3 the price of new might be a good price or might be too high. Now, discontinued brands tend to be great buys unless one has achieved some cult type status.

You'll notice substantial differences in pricing of 15 year old boats. Some brands will have held value much better. That doesn't mean they're better for you necessarily though.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 07:42 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
City: Wherever the boat is
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Silver Quarter
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 456
I ran into a sail boat owner a couple weeks ago, they were living and cruising on a fairly new boat, 38', valued at around $250K.

I was explaining my refit and maintenance budget over the first two years of ownership of my new to me 30 yr old boat would likely exceed the purchase price. (a 50% of value to maintenance load per year)

He said 6-8% of value is what they budgeted.

Both numbers are right (and not that different)
kev_rm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 08:19 PM   #14
Guru
 
Ken E.'s Avatar
 
City: Bellingham WA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Hatt Trick
Vessel Model: 45' Hatteras Convertible
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 802
Buying an older boat is a crap shoot. You can better your odds by looking at maintenence records, getting a mechanical survey, having oil analysis history, seeing pride of ownership in the boat, yada yada....still a big crap shoot to have a bunch of complex systems operating in a hostile, corrosive environment for many years.

Fuel tanks are a big risk if they're black iron or aluminum too. Marine toilets can drive you nuts. How's that windlass? Got any water where the hull or deck coring used to be? Windows and teak decks leak? The electronics were obsolete yesterday. Batteries? Canvas? All the pumps are old. For all of the above........get out your check book in a big way.

You can hedge your bets by improving your new (old) boat over time, and by staying close to home and help or a tow should you need it. Save the long jaunts for later.

Yes, a big crap shoot. But you'll do it anyway and you'll love it.
Ken E. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2017, 08:43 PM   #15
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 9,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken E. View Post
Buying an older boat is a crap shoot. You can better your odds by looking at maintenance records, getting a mechanical survey, having oil analysis history, seeing pride of ownership in the boat....still a big crap shoot....
True. Wish I could be more help.It`s like asking "how long is a piece of string".
Some items will warn you, you`ll know they are on the way out, but they may wait until you see they need replacing, or a full fix. It depends what it is and if it fails where that takes you. I think many owners will have something they are watching. By the same token there are things which if they show issues you need to do asap.
Depends on usage too, remote, local, etc. If you replace or renew in the absence of signs, based on some plan, you could use valuable maintenance funds better directed elsewhere. Be sensible, use your judgement, take advice.
Even ask here
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2017, 09:49 AM   #16
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post

Trawlers in this age range have bow thrusters, windlasses, AC/Heat systems, autopilots, refrigerators/freezers, many pumps, many hoses, hydraulics, tanks.
Assuming good maintenance, is there estimable life cycles for the many systems beyond the hull-decking-engines?
Generally the answer is no. There are so many unknowns and variables from the boats past it is hard to put a price on the remaining life. Something can look perfect and fail tomorrow. Something can look ratty as hell and last a dozen years or more. Ultimately you, your pre-purchase surveyor and your insurance co determine what you can live with and what gets replaced before failure.
Just remember that you are parachuting into the middle of the boats life in progress. Make lists, prioritize, and work the items them off as best you can. Not many of us have budgets nor time to rebuild or replace everything at once. Good luck in your search.
__________________
Archie
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Hudson River
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2017, 05:38 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
rjwilliams11741's Avatar
 
City: Minden, NV & California Delta
Country: USA / Mexico
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Hatteras 48 LRC
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntervaleII View Post
Not sure you can put a age limit. It all depends on the quality of the build and how it was maintained. I just sold my 40 year old Hatteras 48 LRC. Was practically new with all updated systems, high quality build, and well maintained. Look for the type of boat you want and expand your search, you may be surprised. There are many high quality built vessels out there.
I have a 40 year old Hatteras 48 LRC that IMO has many more years of life in her. Certainly systems need replacing but if you are going for an older boat look for one that is a from a high quality builder.
rjwilliams11741 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2017, 06:25 PM   #18
FOG
Guru
 
FOG's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: DreamQuest
Vessel Model: Prairie 36
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 549
I take a different approach than most and basically adhere to "If it isn't broke, don't fix it."
However, I perform my own maintenance, repair what I can, carry some spares, keep an eye on everything, stick pretty much to coastal cruising, have twin engines, 2 helms, 2 AC units, to compressors for the fridge/freezer, 2 heads, 2 GPS, 2 VHF, a second boat, and back all of that up with a decent reserve fund.
I also have 2 anchors and a Swiss Army knife.
FOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2017, 07:51 PM   #19
Guru
 
City: Hampton, va
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: 2003 Ocean Alexander 456
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 879
Of five AC's on my 2003 boat, two of which where installed in 2010, I have had one failure. I am guessing two of the originals are probably not far behind.

Gordon
Gordon J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2017, 08:49 PM   #20
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 16,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwilliams11741 View Post
I have a 40 year old Hatteras 48 LRC that IMO has many more years of life in her. Certainly systems need replacing but if you are going for an older boat look for one that is a from a high quality builder.
With Hatteras the huge plus is quality and how they hold value. Great when you're selling.

The big negative is how they hold value. Not so good when you're buying.
__________________

BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012