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Old 03-20-2016, 08:16 AM   #141
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Fantasizing aside, what sets your engine choices aside from other builders such as Buhler, Seahorse, Nordhavn, Selene, DeFever, Devlin, Dashew or ??. Asking or demanding a NA or builder to circumvent EU, Canadian, and US environmental regulations seems risky and odd.

As alluded previously, what are the real issues that preclude installing a current engine? BTW I have read and been told by builders that metal hulls are much less susceptible to lightning issues - true or false?
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Old 03-20-2016, 11:10 AM   #142
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A few thoughts on this, obviously from a non-lawyer, so take it for what it is:

1. The law already allows you to build your own boat and put in a non certified engine, provided I think it is not sold for like five years. If this is the case, then the law in its spirit already allows for this except for the bit about the us citizen owner building the hull out of country. The hull is not brought into the states for sale, the owner built it and owned it throughout.

2. I built my boat between 2004 and 2006. I put in an older used engine during the build. A month or so after splash, I filled out the Doc paperwork and sent it in to the CG Doc center. A month or so later I got my Doc. No where in that process was there anything about the details of the engine.

3. Let's say a US citizen goes abroad and while out buys a boat of uncertain age, legally registered in it's home country, and putters around the world a bit, ultimately returning home to the States. Calls customs for clearance as he should. He is a US citizen, the boat is his. At this point, what is required for entry? I guess I am asking a question here. And once cleared, decides to register or document the boat in the States. According to the US, there is no change of ownership, the boat arrived already owned. It is not offered for sale, it is not being imported as a new boat from a foreign builder.

Lots of boats are bought overseas and brought here by their owners, so this is not a novel situation. The only issue is the "age" of the boat, which can be blurry, and whether that requires a certified engine.

In my case, no body cared about the engine.
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Old 03-20-2016, 12:08 PM   #143
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It is not offered for sale, it is not being imported as a new boat from a foreign builder.

Lots of boats are bought overseas and brought here by their owners, so this is not a novel situation. The only issue is the "age" of the boat, which can be blurry, and whether that requires a certified engine.
And all those boats actually imported rather than just cruising occasionally in the US must clear customs and pay duty. This is far different than just clearing to enter US waters. This is an import subject to all the requirements and verifications. Can I say with certainty whether the person processing it will catch the engine? No. However, I can say that they are very likely to have a check list that includes that as an import requirement.
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Old 03-20-2016, 12:23 PM   #144
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I have to wonder how many of those here so opposed to newer engines have actually owned one and have experience with them. We do have experience with them and while it's not enough to be considered evidence of the broader group, it's been extremely positive to this point.

All the talk about parts too astonishes me. I read daily in various places questions and frustrations about getting parts for old engines and old equipment, about finding them, about who to call. With newer engines that imaginary mechanic in some far away place might not have the parts (although doesn't likely have old parts either) but they are in current stock in distributorships worldwide and getting them sent in quickly is simple.

It's fine if you want an older engine and that is legal in your situation. However, blasting newer products of any type just because you lack experience with them or haven't updated your own knowledge makes no sense. They are not more difficult to work on, just more difficult if you haven't updated your skills. They require a different skill set but in many ways one that can be obtained quicker than the older skill sets took.
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Old 03-20-2016, 01:40 PM   #145
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With newer engines that imaginary mechanic in some far away place might not have the parts (although doesn't likely have old parts either) but they are in current stock in distributorships worldwide and getting them sent in quickly is simple.

Perhaps.

I find that OEM engine mfg that sell a marine engine they created are far more likely to have spare parts than marinizers that change inventory with each change of engine supplier.

For the marinizers yesterdays engine may be gone forever.
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Old 03-20-2016, 01:49 PM   #146
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With newer engines that imaginary mechanic in some far away place might not have the parts (although doesn't likely have old parts either) but they are in current stock in distributorships worldwide and getting them sent in quickly is simple.

Perhaps.

I find that OEM engine mfg that sell a marine engine they created are far more likely to have spare parts than marinizers that change inventory with each change of engine supplier.

For the marinizers yesterdays engine may be gone forever.
So, your experience is that MTU, CAT, MAN, Cummins, Northern Lights/Lugger, John Deere, Yanmar, Volvo....the leading marine engine manufacturers today...are not likely to have spare parts? Or who isn't? Just who are you talking about? Which of these have you tried to get parts from and found that they don't support their engines?
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Old 03-20-2016, 02:47 PM   #147
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I have to wonder how many of those here so opposed to newer engines have actually owned one and have experience with them. We do have experience with them and while it's not enough to be considered evidence of the broader group, it's been extremely positive to this point.

All the talk about parts too astonishes me. I read daily in various places questions and frustrations about getting parts for old engines and old equipment, about finding them, about who to call. With newer engines that imaginary mechanic in some far away place might not have the parts (although doesn't likely have old parts either) but they are in current stock in distributorships worldwide and getting them sent in quickly is simple.

It's fine if you want an older engine and that is legal in your situation. However, blasting newer products of any type just because you lack experience with them or haven't updated your own knowledge makes no sense. They are not more difficult to work on, just more difficult if you haven't updated your skills. They require a different skill set but in many ways one that can be obtained quicker than the older skill sets took.
I don't think anyone is bashing the new engines, as they have proven quite reliable. In my experience with both types, I'd say the reliability of the new ones is a net positive. While electronic things can fail, the base engine is generally better protected.

The biggest issue is with lightning. In my local area it is at least a few boats a year get hit, and sometimes the hit is not on the boat itself, just close. Several have had engine ecm's fried, some had electronic helm controls fried, sometimes both. The boats at that point are dead in the water.

When I was shopping engines for my single, that was a big concern. The electronic engines were available, but I liked the idea that if I took a hit, the engine would remain functional. Every time I run into a squall line, that decision is recalled.

A strike on an electronic engine boat could be handled by carrying a bunch of spare electonic parts, perhaps that is the way to handle it.
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Old 03-20-2016, 03:23 PM   #148
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I don't think anyone is bashing the new engines, as they have proven quite reliable.

A strike on an electronic engine boat could be handled by carrying a bunch of spare electonic parts, perhaps that is the way to handle it.
Yes, you aren't bashing the new engines, but some are.

Spares are definitely important. Getting hit by lightning is just one of many perils we face and while somewhat low odds when it happens, a major issue when it does strike. Having had a cousin who was struck and killed by lightning, I'm very aware of it's threat.
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Old 03-20-2016, 03:57 PM   #149
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BandB-Be careful quoting then editing. By leaving out the second paragraph of my post, you alterted its meaning considerably.
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Old 03-20-2016, 04:08 PM   #150
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BandB-Be careful quoting then editing. By leaving out the second paragraph of my post, you alterted its meaning considerably.
Didn't intend to as clearly you were talking lightning. Others were not doing so. I think the first paragraph still stands on it's on as you didn't think anyone was bashing. The second paragraph simply shows you weren't bashing but were talking lightning. However, in retrospect, I should have included it all. Just get criticized when quoting entire posts.
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Old 03-20-2016, 05:11 PM   #151
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No harm, no foul.

The point was that lightning sensitivity was about the only reason I would not prefer an electronic engine on a passage making single. That's the only thing in my local fleet that I've seen take them out.
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Old 03-20-2016, 05:47 PM   #152
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No harm, no foul.

The point was that lightning sensitivity was about the only reason I would not prefer an electronic engine on a passage making single. That's the only thing in my local fleet that I've seen take them out.
Yes...others are citing dependability and parts and such. Your lightning I understand, even if not something to discourage me, but obviously they are more sensitive to lightning.
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Old 03-20-2016, 06:02 PM   #153
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Seems like this topic-old vs. new engines comes up on a regular basis. And the discussion always seems to revolve around the same circumstance-newere engines need power to run so no power-no run or a lightning strike will fry all the electronics and again no power-no run.

Since we have JD 6068 TFMs, obviously fully electronic and turbo'ed, some time ago I spent some time talking to my friendly JD guy here in Seattle and to an acquaintance at Northern Lights. Both were enlightening conversations. On the general proposition that electronically controlled diesels need electricity to run, it was pointed out to me that the electric system on the engine is completely self contained within the engine system. That is, the initial power on start comes from the start battery and once running, power comes from the alternator. So failure, even total failure, of an onboard electrical system will not affect engine operation. Of course a dead alternator or totally dead start battery with no alternative could be fatal. But those are normally resolvable and have nothing to do with the question at hand. So, I don't consider electrical failure as a substantial reason to discount modern engines.

On the ECM, of course there are and have been ECM failures. According to my JD guy, these just do not happen very often and when they do it is often a programming failure or a circuit board failure, both of which tend to show themselves early in an engine's life. As to lightning, forgetting for the moment the very small probability of an actual strike, if lightning does stike a boat and does go to ground through the engine, the ECM is protected by being isolated in a separate metal box that is separately grounded. In fact, according to JD, ECMs are almost never affected by lightning. But what can be affected are the multiple sensors on the engine, some 12-15 that send info to the ECM to control the engine. Almost all the engine failures from lightning are because the sensors are fried, not the ECM. Now as it happens, JD recognized this. So, the ECM is programmed first to find alternative sensor sources for needed information. Failing this, even if all sensors are failed, the ECM is programmed with a basic "get home" operation mode. So, the engine will still run, maybe not at max, maybe not as efficiently or effectively, but it will still run. According to my JD and my NL friends, almost all ECM controlled engines have this feature programmed in.

As to lightning in general, as best as I can find stats, the most likely to be hit is a sailboat (duh-the mast!) and the second most likely is a sportfisher (again Duh-the tower and outriggers). Trawler types rank pretty low on the list. And overall, the probability ranks close to being an irrelevant consideration.

As to reliability between old mechanical and newer electronically controlled, JD at least says that their history and studies show a greater reliability with newer engines. Better initial construction and design, modern alloys etc, better and more efficient control through the ECM created less stress on individual parts, the info provided by the ECM provides far better and more timely information on operating conditions and status of internal parts. If monitored correctly, potential problems can be identified and rectified before failures. I think this shows in the generally increased maintenance intervals on newer engines. Of course, there are always the outlier anecdotes, someone's engine fried by lightning, someone's turbo blows, or whatever. But are these incidences, even if actually verified, occurring often enough to justify ditching the engines? To me it is not even a consideration. I simply would not consider an old engine over a newer one. And I would never consider replacing our JDs.
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Old 03-20-2016, 06:47 PM   #154
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There you go THD, confusing all the dockside legend folks with facts; you're just no fun!
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:20 PM   #155
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Since my previous post comparing old automobile engines to newer ones apparently went over the head of some folks, I'll make it simple and direct:

There have been a lot of improvements in manufacturing and engineering in the past fifty years or so. A new (current production) engine will have a longer life, be more fuel efficient, and be more reliable than an antique. And of course, when parts are needed, whether they be repair parts or maintenance parts, they are far more likely to be available. Some parts for old engines can only be obtained from old engines that have been scrapped for parts. And, mechanics are more likely to have the tools and training to work on current model engines.


If you really believe a newer model engine is going to leave you stranded in the middle of the ocean, perhaps a sailboat would be a better choice.
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Old 03-20-2016, 11:08 PM   #156
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Failing this, even if all sensors are failed, the ECM is programmed with a basic "get home" operation mode. So, the engine will still run, maybe not at max, maybe not as efficiently or effectively, but it will still run.
This is exactly what tech services in Finland (AGCO SISU) told me when I contacted them because of my same concerns. And like you said, probably all the serious engine manufacturers have similar strategies since they all have products to sell. Internationally, Doohan for sure and perhaps even Ashok Leyland (India).
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Old 03-21-2016, 12:34 AM   #157
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i can understand from reading this post about the concern with electronic engines vs manual engines. having worked in the oil fields around dirt work and drilling rigs i can tell you electronic engines run good till they break down then you have to wait for a service tech to show up days later to get looked at then if they didnt have the part had to wait on that. now on the other hand the mechanical engines we could get our mech. on it and wouldnt be down more than a couple days. and there still are a lot of 71-92 series detroits still working out there on drilling rigs and other equipment. just putting in my two cents from what i have exp. but to each to his own pref.
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Old 03-21-2016, 01:57 AM   #158
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i can understand from reading this post about the concern with electronic engines vs manual engines. having worked in the oil fields around dirt work and drilling rigs i can tell you electronic engines run good till they break down then you have to wait for a service tech to show up days later to get looked at then if they didnt have the part had to wait on that. now on the other hand the mechanical engines we could get our mech. on it and wouldnt be down more than a couple days. and there still are a lot of 71-92 series detroits still working out there on drilling rigs and other equipment. just putting in my two cents from what i have exp. but to each to his own pref.
So the problem was the lack of current training your mechanic had?

Sure, if your mechanics and engineers training is only through a period 10 years or more ago, they won't be able to maintain or repair current electronic engines. Similarly, some newly trained mechanics might be baffled a bit by 50 year old engines.

Now, I do believe you've hit upon an issue. Mechanics whose training is outdated greatly prefer and recommend older engines and they do a better job of keeping them maintained and in top operating condition.
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Old 03-21-2016, 06:46 AM   #159
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"Which of these have you tried to get parts from and found that they don't support their engines?"

VOLVO
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:45 AM   #160
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"Which of these have you tried to get parts from and found that they don't support their engines?"

VOLVO
I almost didn't include them for that reason, but there's has nothing to do with new, old or anything else, just to do with being Volvo.
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