Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-19-2016, 06:44 AM   #121
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,512
"In the past when I entered into the US I never had the EPA show up and question my engine. Nowadays with the SVRS it is even more unlikely.

So from a practical point of view, who's gunna enforce the Tier requirement for a single boat, several years old, sailing back to port in America?"

Folks who have visited overseas with a bunch of burorats know the value of a wax seal on most any piece of paper.

I would have made some metal decals or plates and simply glue or rivet them on the engine.

TIER III, or 33 , its still boob bait for lazy B-rats , so should work if ever questioned.

"So that raises the next question... what would be better - a Jimmy 6-71 or a Cumming 6BT? "

At just over 20 hp a cylinder a 6-71 should be able to operate at 1500 or perhaps less , be properly loaded and be quiet . 30HP per is about max for efficiency as is 1800RPM

I would not go below 1200 RPM but might try to prop for LRC at 1200 .

The 6-71 has reams of HP/RPM/ Injectors info .

A 1200 or 1500 cruise may require a deep reduction gear and large (expensive ) prop.

But the efficiency and silence are forever!
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 07:18 AM   #122
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,783
What's the hard evidence that a modern engine, such as the Deeres or say, a commercial rated Cummins, Cat or MTU, are any less reliable than the old stuff? Or are we just dealing with urban, or should I say, dockside legend here?

I really loved my old Detroits, but wouldn't have hesitated for a moment if I could have waved a wand and put one of the above in there.
__________________

__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 10:42 AM   #123
Guru
 
Rustybarge's Avatar
 
City: I need a bigger boat!
Country: Ireland
Vessel Model: Cheetah 25' Powercat.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
What exactly would be the scrutiny of a US flagged vessel when entering the States for the first time? My vessel, being built overseas but US flagged, will most likely not enter the US for several years, unlike a newly built boat being shipped on a freighter.

In the past when I entered into the US I never had the EPA show up and question my engine. Nowadays with the SVRS it is even more unlikely.

So from a practical point of view, who's gunna enforce the Tier requirement for a single boat, several years old, sailing back to port in America?
When the keel of a boat is first layed down that's the legal age of a boat, although the boat could take several years to build if its big or complicated. Often old woodies are rebuilt from the keel up, but keep the original classic date of build although none of the original boat exists.

Cunning plan, with totally cast iron legal validity, would be to buy an old USA boat keel that's been scrapped and build your new boat onto it; hey presto you now have a pre- emmisions diesel fit out!

I'm sure you could retain the old builders plate as rock solid evidence.
__________________
Peter.
Rustybarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 10:45 AM   #124
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,164
DO NOT follow FF's advice: "Folks who have visited overseas with a bunch of burorats know the value of a wax seal on most any piece of paper.

I would have made some metal decals or plates and simply glue or rivet them on the engine.

TIER III, or 33 , its still boob bait for lazy B-rats , so should work if ever questioned."

If FF had a law license, he just lost it for counseling you to break the law. Big difference from avoiding scrutiny to outright deception.
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 01:23 PM   #125
Guru
 
City: Doha
Country: Qatar
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by koliver View Post
If FF had a law license, he just lost it for counseling you to break the law. Big difference from avoiding scrutiny to outright deception.
I agree with above and there really is no reason for deception. No issues with avoiding scrutiny since there's really nothing malicious about it.
makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 02:16 PM   #126
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Saint Augustine, Fl.
Country: Port of St Augustine ,FL
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,940
I would be more worried come resale time than "getting caught". It may not matter to you, but it may be a point of negotiation brought up by a surveyor for potential buyer.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 02:56 PM   #127
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor of Fortune View Post
I would be more worried come resale time than "getting caught". It may not matter to you, but it may be a point of negotiation brought up by a surveyor for potential buyer.
Many if not most buyers of LRC type vessels appreciate having a mechanical injected engine for the reliability. I don't think there is a downside should a sale be on the horizon.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 03:01 PM   #128
Guru
 
Rustybarge's Avatar
 
City: I need a bigger boat!
Country: Ireland
Vessel Model: Cheetah 25' Powercat.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Many if not most buyers of LRC type vessels appreciate having a mechanical injected engine for the reliability. I don't think there is a downside should a sale be on the horizon.
Well said.

Maybe choose an engine that uses the same block/crankcase on both mech and electronic versions: change over the head if it becomes absolutely necessary if you get inspected.

It could be quite expensive swopping heads and injectors, but a lot lot cheaper than an engine swap!
__________________
Peter.
Rustybarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 03:28 PM   #129
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
What's the hard evidence that a modern engine, such as the Deeres or say, a commercial rated Cummins, Cat or MTU, are any less reliable than the old stuff? Or are we just dealing with urban, or should I say, dockside legend here?
That's it and complaints from a few with problems in the initial stages. What is being called new or modern here is a long time from being new. It's like common rail. Common rail is old news. We talk electronic vs. mechanical, no longer new or unproven. We have all "new/modern" engines and have experienced no problems.

There is always resistance to change and a belief by many that the old way is best. That doesn't necessarily make it so. I love modern technology and all it has brought to us. I do recognize some changes have had their difficulties, but they get worked out.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 04:34 PM   #130
Guru
 
City: NC
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
What exactly would be the scrutiny of a US flagged vessel when entering the States for the first time? My vessel, being built overseas but US flagged, will most likely not enter the US for several years, unlike a newly built boat being shipped on a freighter.

In the past when I entered into the US I never had the EPA show up and question my engine. Nowadays with the SVRS it is even more unlikely.

So from a practical point of view, who's gunna enforce the Tier requirement for a single boat, several years old, sailing back to port in America?
Go look at the requirements to import a boat into the US. I remember seeing questions on the paperwork asking about the engine Tier. Me thinks the Feds have this covered and there would be at least a Federal civil, if not criminal charge(s), if caught lying on the paperwork. I too was curious how the Feds would track compliance so I dug around a bit.

Some countries allow US citizens in without a visa and I know one trawler that "lives" in the US that is flagged in one of these countries. I did not ask WHY the vessel was flagged in another country but I assumed for tax reasons. Pretty sure the boat has a Tier compliant engine. The boat was built and brought back to the US well after 2001.

I do wonder if flagging in these US friendly countries, say the Marshal Islands for example, would allow one to work around the EPA requirements. The problem with this is it that puts one under the regulations microscope of foreign flagged vessels when entering into the US and said regulations seem to be constantly changing. Looks like now you have to get a yearly cruising permit if foreign flagged and the boat is in the US. Kinda a PITA if you are living here full time.

Later,
Dan
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 04:59 PM   #131
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Many if not most buyers of LRC type vessels appreciate having a mechanical injected engine for the reliability. I don't think there is a downside should a sale be on the horizon.
I don't think that applies to Nordhavn and Krogen at the moment; might want to check.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 06:25 PM   #132
Guru
 
City: NC
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 635
Which is more reliable, a mechanical or a "modern" electronic engine? Or should the question be made even more complicated and change reliable to better?

Say one is in the middle of the Pacific and lightning hits the boat, which engine is most likely to still work, a mechanical or electronic engine?

Lets say the engine is a "modern" electric engine and requires a replacement electronic part. After sailing the boat into Tarawa, how long will it take to get said part?

If a mechanical engine breaks and the boat is stuck in Tarawa, it will be possible to fix the engine. If a single electrical engine part fails while in Tarawa, there is no way that will be fabricated on Tarawa. One has to wait for the part to fly in if one does not have a spare...

Speaking of parts, my pickup requires a CPS that Ford used to charge $200 to buy. The CPS would last roughly 30-60,000 miles before failing completely, and if you did not notice the CPS starting to fail, and put in a replacement, you would be stuck with a dead engine. No workaround except a new CPS. Because of a looming lawsuit over this massive reliability problem, not to mention safety issue, Ford put out a new CPS for $25 that has lasted in my truck well over 100,000 miles. I replaced three CPS units and before putting in the new, $25 unit. Now this problem could have been avoided if Ford had configured the engine as did International. International version's of the engines had TWO CPS units. When one failed, the problem was flagged, the second unit took over, and you fixed the failed unit. Of course the problem could have also been avoided if Ford had created a reliable CPS from the start. When I bought the truck, my first stop was at International to buy a spare CPS to carry in the glove box along with a wench to change out the parts. Thankfully, I never got stuck on the side of the road like I did with the failed relay in the 6.5 TD Chevy engine.

I talked with JD representatives a few years ago about the new Tier III electronic engines and they were very upfront about the following in their presentation. Their "modern" electronic diesels need power to run. No electric power and the engine does not run. The "modern" engine needs fuel, air and electrical power to run. Take away power and the engine will not run. At least some mechanical engine do not have this limitation.

Lets say a boat needs an engine around 125 HP:
JD's 4045 Tier II engine has 121 HP rated at M2 and burns 6.7 GPH at WOT.
JD's 4045 Tier III engine has 125 HP rated at M2 and burns 7.7 GPH at WOT.
A Gardner 6XLB has 127 HP rated continuous and burns 6.3 GPH at WOT.

The Gardner is burning about 18% less fuel than the Tier III. 18% difference saves you a bunch of money and greatly increases the boat range....

Now, the JD engines are turbo charged and the Gardner is not. Turbos are very reliable but they are another point of failure. If you don't have one, it can't fail. Course the JD engines are small because of that turbo and don't weigh much compared to the huge Gardner. It just goes on and on with the good and bad points.

The electronic engines do have a big advantage with all of the data one can pull from the engine which is a good thing but a Catch 22.

Later,
Dan
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 06:40 PM   #133
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,783
Quote:
Lets say the engine is a "modern" electric engine and requires a replacement electronic part. After sailing the boat into Tarawa, how long will it take to get said part?

If a mechanical engine breaks and the boat is stuck in Tarawa, it will be possible to fix the engine
If doing that kind of passagemaking, why wouldn't you be carrying spares for whatever engine you have?
Out of curiousity, when were you in Tarawa? Who's the big mechanical engine parts supplier there who doesn't carry parts for electronic engines? Kind of interesting to learn what goes on over there.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 07:12 PM   #134
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
I don't think that applies to Nordhavn and Krogen at the moment; might want to check.
If you are building new boats for sale in the states, you will be installing new electronic engines. There is nothing else available and certified in that hp class for new builds.

Do they do it for the advantages of electronic engines? No, they do as there is no other engine legally available.

I will say this, though: The new electronic engines, especially the Cummins Q series with which I am most familiar have proven to be very reliable. Other brands similar as heard through dock talk, not direct experience.

Just don't get hit by lightning. That will take any of them out.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 07:52 PM   #135
Guru
 
City: NC
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
If doing that kind of passagemaking, why wouldn't you be carrying spares for whatever engine you have?
Out of curiousity, when were you in Tarawa? Who's the big mechanical engine parts supplier there who doesn't carry parts for electronic engines? Kind of interesting to learn what goes on over there.
Really, when I have been in Tarawa?

I never said there were mechanical parts available in Tarawa to fix the engine. One could POSSIBLY have a mechanical part made or have it repaired. One can't make a chip. One can't make an ECM. One can't fix a fried chip.

One can carry spares but can you carry all of the electrical spares that can possibly fail? Especially from a lightning strike? What if the lighting strike took out your replacement parts?

Now, I did pick Tarawa because one trawler I know DID have engine problems near the island and had to sail to port and then wait for weeks to get parts. But the point is that in an out of the way place, if one has an electrical part problem and you don't have the parts, you are going to have to wait for parts. This certainly could happen with a mechanical engine but at least one has the CHANCE of making a new part or repairing the failure. There is no way one is making a chip or computer. Not happening.

Later,
Dan
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 08:33 PM   #136
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Legal or not, it's a dumb idea. Would anyone buy a new car with a decades old engine?


Years ago, car engines were easy to repair but you were repairing them every few months and they were junk a 100K miles. Fast forward to today and they may be difficult to repair but they rarely need repair and often run for 250K miles or more.


I have friends who have Honda with over 500K miles on it and they still drive long distance in it.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 08:39 PM   #137
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
And boats are like cars?

Ran a boat with a carburated 454, probably 60's tech, and it was the boat that towed all the new fangled engines......

Relating boats to cars rarely works.

But I agree, I would have a hard time replacing my Lehman with a Lehman, I do have more but not ultimate faith in new engines.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2016, 11:10 PM   #138
Guru
 
City: Doha
Country: Qatar
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
Go look at the requirements to import a boat into the US. I remember seeing questions on the paperwork asking about the engine Tier.
Please clarify which paperwork in particular are you referring to?

I have checked the following USCG forms and there are no references to engine tier:
  • Form CG-1258 Application for Documentation
  • Form CG-1261 Builder's Certificate
  • Form HIN Hull Identification Number

    I chatted with USCG NVDC and they had absolutely nothing to say about emissions and wouldn't even breach the subject. Then I specifically asked about EPA emissions requirements and they told me that they don't even know who to refer me to to ask about those! (I laughed out loud when I read that).
makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2016, 12:40 AM   #139
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
Please clarify which paperwork in particular are you referring to?

I have checked the following USCG forms and there are no references to engine tier:
  • Form CG-1258 Application for Documentation
  • Form CG-1261 Builder's Certificate
  • Form HIN Hull Identification Number

    I chatted with USCG NVDC and they had absolutely nothing to say about emissions and wouldn't even breach the subject. Then I specifically asked about EPA emissions requirements and they told me that they don't even know who to refer me to to ask about those! (I laughed out loud when I read that).
I think he's referring to customs paperwork. I know on many other items they require various forms of proof that the product is legal to import as well as to it's duty category.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2016, 06:39 AM   #140
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,512
"Legal or not, it's a dumb idea. Would anyone buy a new car with a decades old engine?"

Cars are personal items that are basically throwaways, so style is far more important than efficiency.

Large 18 wheel trucks are someones living and economy does count.

The current trend for small 1-5 truck companies is to purchase a brand new rolling truck only missing the engine & tranny.

These are purchased rebuilt and installed by the owner.

The 15% or 20% difference in fuel economy allows the small operator to compete , and survive.

For a boat reliability is key , doesn't matter the fuel burn if the boat stops in the middle of the ocean crossing because white smoke came out of a tiny box.

WE don't expect a fire on board , but carry fire extinguishers as insurance.

The simple all mechanical engine is insurance to the ocean traveler .

Weather real or imagined , it gives peace of mind, and confidence.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012