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Old 08-21-2015, 11:41 AM   #101
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A couple of points:

I think the tiers are divided into engine size or HP ratings, so little engines can meet 3 or 4 and still be mechanical. Such as genset and small tractor engines. New little engines certainly are available right now without CR injection.

And yes, I think the diesel emissions stuff has gone way overboard. I could see in cities having tight limits on busses and delivery trucks, that will make a big difference on city air quality.

But pleasure boat engines?? The amount of use is minimal anyway, and even more minimal in cities.

Tugboats in cities, ferries in cities, ok tighten emissions there.

In my small city, the city busses are old and literally puke black smoke on each accel. The bus authority keeps these on the road as the new emission controlled busses are too expensive, and other cities find them unreliable.

And to reduce NOx, they use later injection timing which reduces efficiency AND increases CO2!! And causes more fuel to be shipped!!! With more emissions!!!

And the complex systems to meet emissions fail, so other vehicles and industries must respond, and that results in.... More emissions!!!

It seems to me that no one in the govt is looking at the big picture and using that to develop practical policy.

Frustrating.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:24 PM   #102
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And one day of volcano activity equals all the pollution of millions of non-tier engines.

I am going to give my Perkins 4-236 a big hug this morning for being a "Non"-tier engine.

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Old 08-22-2015, 08:40 AM   #103
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Doesn't Mitsubisshi have mechanical, tier 3 compliant engines? I don't know if they have anything in your desired size, worth checking.
From another thread that pretty much mirrors this one:

Google: 2014 Model Year Marine CI Engine Certification Data or go here:

http://tinyurl.com/netxe3u "There is an XLS file that lists everything you want to know and probably a lot more."
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:14 AM   #104
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And one day of volcano activity equals all the pollution of millions of non-tier engines.



I am going to give my Perkins 4-236 a big hug this morning for being a "Non"-tier engine.



Al-Ketchikan

Al- don't forget Christmas is on the way soon. Be sure to wrap that sweet girl up something nice and put under the tree!


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Twin Lehman 135's
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:44 AM   #105
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I also wonder how much of the carbon pollution is scrubbed out of the exhaust with water injection vs when a motor is tested and does not have watercooled exhaust?.

Got to love the idiots in govt. That require a 15% reduction in pollution that makes a motor use 15% more fuel
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Old 08-23-2015, 07:37 AM   #106
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"Got to love the idiots in govt. That require a 15% reduction in pollution that makes a motor use 15% more fuel"

Trucks that operate on I-95 have a cleaner exhaust than what is sucked in the intake.

That 15% fuel penalty is passed on with every item delivered by truck.
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:17 AM   #107
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HOLLYWOOD the bottom line in this regard is a reduction in pollution ....
Not the amount of fuel burned.
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Old 09-07-2015, 07:25 AM   #108
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We calculated power curves. Our SISU tier 3 should be running at 80% power at 1500 rpm at our desired cruise speed.

Should be a happy engine, not underloaded, with still abit of reserve power.
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:21 PM   #109
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Starting to Piss Off the EPA

I think everyone over in EPA is starting to hate me. I'm still trying to find an exemption in order to install a nice, civilized mechanical engine instead of the required Tier III.

It seriously doesn't look possible at this point, so I give up trying. So the choices are either comply or have to document offshore, which would be a real PITA in the long run when bringing the boat back to America.

Oh well, can't win them all.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:33 AM   #110
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"You are comfortable with 1939 technology, will the next buyer be? How much will you save as a total percentage of your cost to build."

Actually its 1936 tech,

Engine parts costs can get insane with "modern" engines , just ask any Volvo owner his luck at obtaining almost anything but a filter. And cost !!! also insane .

"1) Am I being overly concerned about the reliability of today's modern high-techies?"

According to Pro boat builder he required clean fuel will be the Big problem .

Keel cooled , dry stack , if the boat is properly built with removal hatches , the new engine can be installed overnight.

Its not available in Euroland or the USA today and complex multiple filtering is required.

Or an Alfa Laval centrifugal setup.

Steel hull should help in a nearby lightning strike to keep the transistors happy.

If the boat is large enough you might consider a surplus landing craft tranny.

These allow 2 engines to power the main shaft , one or both.

Build it with a modern tier whatever engine sized for LRC to be efficient with a nice heavy load.Could also be a gen set in port.

Install the second more reliable engine after the vessel is inspected.
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Old 03-15-2016, 12:33 PM   #111
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I think everyone over in EPA is starting to hate me. I'm still trying to find an exemption in order to install a nice, civilized mechanical engine instead of the required Tier III.

It seriously doesn't look possible at this point, so I give up trying. So the choices are either comply or have to document offshore, which would be a real PITA in the long run when bringing the boat back to America.

Oh well, can't win them all.
The only exemption I could find is that you can use whatever engine you want.....

As long as you build the boat yourself.

I recently read an article about overseas documentation which was interesting. Unfortunately, I can remember nor find what I read.

Having said that, looking on Noonsite at the US requirements for non US flag vessels makes me wonder why anyone visits the US by boat. Whenever I read the entrance requirements for a country and think what a PITA, I then go read the US requirements would puts things in perspective.

Later,
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Old 03-15-2016, 01:05 PM   #112
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Just read the Noonsite description for the USA. I couldn't imagine having to "report in" when traveling from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale. Was it this bad prior to 9/11?

I've traveled (by car) all over Lebanon and Syria and it wasn't this bad! It's a sad state of affairs for America, and I've always commented to family that there are more armed police present at American airports than any other I've ever visited in the world (40-50 easily).

So, who really won the "war on terror?"
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Old 03-15-2016, 01:09 PM   #113
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The only exemption I could find is that you can use whatever engine you want..... As long as you build the boat yourself.
I couldn't get a straight answer from EPA, but what I got out of our conversation is that the above exemption applies if you homebuilt in America. If you "homebuilt" outside America then you are still "importing" an engine to the USA and that imported engine must be EPA compliant.

Once again, it wasn't totally clear and doubt they get a lot of cases like this. Tough to fight the system!
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Old 03-15-2016, 01:17 PM   #114
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So, who really won the "war on terror?"
The law enforcement establishment.
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Old 03-15-2016, 02:19 PM   #115
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"Got to love the idiots in govt. That require a 15% reduction in pollution that makes a motor use 15% more fuel
Hollywood"

I have kept track of mileage burning regular gas as recommended in the owner's manual, v premium gas (way less ethanol). for a price increase per gallon of under 10% my mileage goes up by more than 10% for a net saving. Thus proving Hollywood's point.
I am sure the same thing would apply to diesel with and without bio added.
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:51 PM   #116
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I couldn't get a straight answer from EPA, but what I got out of our conversation is that the above exemption applies if you homebuilt in America. If you "homebuilt" outside America then you are still "importing" an engine to the USA and that imported engine must be EPA compliant.

Once again, it wasn't totally clear and doubt they get a lot of cases like this. Tough to fight the system!
Yep, I think you have to home build in the US otherwise you are importing. Frankly, I am surprised they have this exemption. There can't be that many people building boats in the backyard anymore so allowing a non Tiered engine really does not matter. But given that not many people take on the huge undertaking of building their own boat I am surprised they allow non Tiered engines because it makes sense to have the exception.

Later,
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:41 PM   #117
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From a Practical point of view

What exactly would be the scrutiny of a US flagged vessel when entering the States for the first time? My vessel, being built overseas but US flagged, will most likely not enter the US for several years, unlike a newly built boat being shipped on a freighter.

In the past when I entered into the US I never had the EPA show up and question my engine. Nowadays with the SVRS it is even more unlikely.

So from a practical point of view, who's gunna enforce the Tier requirement for a single boat, several years old, sailing back to port in America?
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:49 PM   #118
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That has been my thinking too. A one-off boat brought in by it's owner is not likely on the regulator's radar. Nor should it be. I think you should be ok putting in any engine you want.
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:55 PM   #119
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That has been my thinking too. A one-off boat brought in by it's owner is not likely on the regulator's radar. Nor should it be. I think you should be ok putting in any engine you want.
So that raises the next question... what would be better - a Jimmy 6-71 or a Cumming 6BT?

That question is not going to start any fights now, is it?????
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Old 03-18-2016, 04:12 PM   #120
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I'd go with a Cummins 6CTA 8.3 at a modest rating. I think it is rated continuous around 250hp. From your other threads you are looking at 140hp at cruise, that is right at this engines sweet spot, probably 1500rpm.

I saw your posts in boatdiesel, we talked about 140hp being a bit much for a 6BT or 6BTA in trawler service. It can do it, but that blocks sweet spot is around 100hp.

I have the 6CTA in my sled, but it is a planing hull and so I got the 450hp version. It has been rock solid, and I cruise at about 250hp.

Amongst gear heads it is one of the best marine diesels out there. Same sort of reputation as the 6-71 and Cat 3208. I picked it due to its reputation.
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