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Old 11-02-2012, 11:50 PM   #1
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Old Australian Hardwood Trawler/Cruiser

Can any of you Timber boat lovers give me any advice on a old, 1914, Aussie built from hardwood timber trawler/cruiser? It looks to be very well cared for and in great shape but I'm not sure if the asking price is sound or...Is the broker dreaming?
The old girl can be seen here
The broker states on another sales page on Gumtree: Quote.
Powered by 150 Hp 6 cyl Kelvin Deisel. Cruising Speed 12 knots will do 14 knts. 2 Gallons per hr. Unbeleivable Fuel Efficiency.

Anyway, I thought I would seek advice from some of you blokes who have much more experence than I in old timber boats.

Thanking you in advance for your advice.

Bill
Australia
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:24 AM   #2
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Can any of you Timber boat lovers give me any advice on a old, 1914, Aussie built from hardwood timber trawler/cruiser? It looks to be very well cared for and in great shape but I'm not sure if the asking price is sound or...Is the broker dreaming?
The old girl can be seen here
The broker states on another sales page on Gumtree: Quote.
Powered by 150 Hp 6 cyl Kelvin Deisel. Cruising Speed 12 knots will do 14 knts. 2 Gallons per hr. Unbeleivable Fuel Efficiency.

Anyway, I thought I would seek advice from some of you blokes who have much more experence than I in old timber boats.

Thanking you in advance for your advice.

Bill
Australia
Kelvins are very cool engines. At that horsepower, I assume it is a 6 cylinder, as they just bolted 50 hp, 2 cylinder blocks together to get what output they are looking for. I believe you can still get parts for these, and there is a Kelvin owners group still active in the UK. It would be nice to know the kind of Eucalyptus the hull is made of - however, most gum is incredibly rot resistant and basically as hard as steel. One thing to understand is how she is fastened. Wood, especially gum, will last for a really long time but the fastenings may not. She could be refastened if necessary, but getting the old fasteners out of that kind of wood could be quite a project. I'm kind of amazed at how modern she looks, given her age, although I don't quite fancy her crossing the Bight on her way to Tas....

The only advice I can give is that you better love taking care of stuff, because all boats are projects, and wood boats are projects squared.
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:31 AM   #3
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Thanks for the responce mate. To me the hull looks similar to a Sharpie commercial fishing boat and they are great sea boats. Her modern lines also surprised me I have contacted the broker and he's sending me further information on the vessel's history, that should let me know what timbers were used in the construction
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:14 AM   #4
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Here is a chart that may help. It pretty spot on for my vessel.

I have two 6-71 detroits and they burn about a gallon/mile. Look for damage around the transom and rudder area. I don't know why but everyone I know with a "woody" always has work in the the transom to do.
Good luck,
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:41 PM   #5
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Update on the designer/builder of the yacht

The designer/builder of the vessel was Mr A.E. Tilly, he was a son of Mr James Tilly of Hobart, Tasmania, a boat/ship designer/builder of the firm, Tilly & Williams Ship Builders of Tasmania. Alfred Ernest Tilly, the designer/builder of the yacht I'm talking about, died at the age of 65 in Fremantle, West Australia.

Mr A.E. Tilly, after moving to SA, started the boat & ship building company, A.E. Tilly, in 1908.
The firm grew to quite a large size and was recognised for it's craftsmanship in boat/ship design/ building. In addition to the construction of ocean going steamers, Mr Tilly was responsible for most of the motor-boats of Fremantle and Perth of the day.

So the old girl came from a highly regarded boat/ship design/builder, who's family were also well respected Tasmanian boat/ship designer/builders, Mr Tilly started his life in boat/ship design/building in Tasmania, that could explain why, to me, the boat on offer looks like the hull of a Tasmanian Sharpie Cray boat and, looking at the original boat today, it looks to me like Mr Tilly was well ahead of his time in the boat design/building department.

As this boat was designed and built in West Oz, it could be built from Western Jarrah but as it was built 98 years ago, 1914, it may be built using Huon Pine...I don't know.

That's all the information I've found on the designer/builder and I got that information from the net, not the broker/seller, so what do you think, is the broker asking to much, $90,000au, for this 98 year old boat? If so, what, in your opinion, do you think would be a realistic price for the boat?

Thanks again for your views mates.

Bill
Australia
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:02 PM   #6
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The designer/builder of the vessel was Mr A.E. Tilly, he was a son of Mr James Tilly of Hobart, Tasmania, a boat/ship designer/builder of the firm, Tilly & Williams Ship Builders of Tasmania. Alfred Ernest Tilly, the designer/builder of the yacht I'm talking about, died at the age of 65 in Fremantle, West Australia.

Mr A.E. Tilly, after moving to SA, started the boat & ship building company, A.E. Tilly, in 1908.
The firm grew to quite a large size and was recognised for it's craftsmanship in boat/ship design/ building. In addition to the construction of ocean going steamers, Mr Tilly was responsible for most of the motor-boats of Fremantle and Perth of the day.

So the old girl came from a highly regarded boat/ship design/builder, who's family were also well respected Tasmanian boat/ship designer/builders, Mr Tilly started his life in boat/ship design/building in Tasmania, that could explain why, to me, the boat on offer looks like the hull of a Tasmanian Sharpie Cray boat and, looking at the original boat today, it looks to me like Mr Tilly was well ahead of his time in the boat design/building department.

As this boat was designed and built in West Oz, it could be built from Western Jarrah but as it was built 98 years ago, 1914, it may be built using Huon Pine...I don't know.

That's all the information I've found on the designer/builder and I got that information from the net, not the broker/seller, so what do you think, is the broker asking to much, $90,000au, for this 98 year old boat? If so, what, in your opinion, do you think would be a realistic price for the boat?

Thanks again for your views mates.

Bill
Australia
$90k seems a bit much to me. A lot will depend on how long it has been on the market and the degree to which the owner wants to sell. Were it me, I'd steer towards $50k - $60k but only after a thorough survey to determine how much, if any, reconstruction is needed. Selling wooden boats is not easy to do, as it takes a special person to see the point. And there is one....
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:57 PM   #7
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The hull may be that old but!

The boat has had a major refurbish including modern aluminum windows. The flying bridge and radar arch are additions done in much more resent times. Boats like these are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. Somebody has spent a lot of time and money making a more modern boat out of this old classic. Why they didn't upgrade to a modern power plant suggests that the work was done on a shoe string. The hull shape was not intended to carry weight high and I would be concerned as to stability with the weight of the flying bridge. Photos hide flaws but the boat looks to be well done perhaps by a amateur builder. This is a one off boat that you need to go into with wide open eyes and a good surveyor.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:55 AM   #8
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flying bridge

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The boat has had a major refurbish including modern aluminum windows. The flying bridge and radar arch are additions done in much more resent times. Boats like these are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. Somebody has spent a lot of time and money making a more modern boat out of this old classic. Why they didn't upgrade to a modern power plant suggests that the work was done on a shoe string. The hull shape was not intended to carry weight high and I would be concerned as to stability with the weight of the flying bridge. Photos hide flaws but the boat looks to be well done perhaps by a amateur builder. This is a one off boat that you need to go into with wide open eyes and a good surveyor.
G'day mates,

Thank you for your views, Scary, I too was concerned over the flying bridge, or height to beam ratio. During my search for a trawler to live aboard I have seen many old converted trawlers but not one of those boats had a flying bridge added. I tell a lie...One old American Monk timber trawler offered for sale in WA, USA, had a whopping great wheel-house added, I could have bought that Monk for a song but that wheel-house put me right of buying the boat.
I think I'll forget about the old west Aus boat and bid my time till I can get away to look at a few motor-sailors in New Zealand, I have several on my list, all are original and all are on offer for a lot less than the modernised west oz boat.

Thanks again for you advice on the boat,

Bill
Australia
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:08 AM   #9
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G'day mates,

Thank you for your views, Scary, I too was concerned over the flying bridge, or height to beam ratio. During my search for a trawler to live aboard I have seen many old converted trawlers but not one of those boats had a flying bridge added. I tell a lie...One old American Monk timber trawler offered for sale in WA, USA, had a whopping great wheel-house added, I could have bought that Monk for a song but that wheel-house put me right of buying the boat.
I think I'll forget about the old west Aus boat and bid my time till I can get away to look at a few motor-sailors in New Zealand, I have several on my list, all are original and all are on offer for a lot less than the modernised west oz boat.

Thanks again for you advice on the boat,

Bill
Australia
Mate I'm in Perth if you need help. Just MSG me :-)
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:29 AM   #10
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Bill,
Depending on the hull structure and fastenings that is probably a reasonable price for said boat in Australia.
One must remember that good timber boats bring a premium price here.
It is nothing for a spotted gum hulled sharpie/carvel well fitted and maintained to fetch around the $400,000.00 mark.
I too am a bit concerned with the above deck build considering the freeboard/hull height.
The Kelvin is an absolute cracker of an engine and I nearly installed one recently when I re engined Tidahapah with a 6LXB Gardner
By the way have you had a look at the Anchorline brokerage page, I think he has a converted crey boat listed
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:32 PM   #11
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1914 Trawler Update

Thanks for your offer of help Hendo, much appreciated mate but I think I'll give the old girl a miss, she's just so much more boat than my needs, which is one man and his dog living aboard full time, plus a couple of fishing buddies seeking a free fishing holiday for a week or so at times. Mostly it would be just me and the dog, laying at anchor somewhere on the Ozzie coast, NZ or SE Asia if the mood took me.

Benn, she really is a beaut boat, I did think, if I bought that old girl, I could remove the flying bridge but...The broker informs me...Quote: The Previous owner was an engineer who owned her for 40 years and designed and built her beautifully. End Quote...If the PO is anything like myself, then I bet he built the fly-bridge real strong and it could be a major project to remove the fly-bridge and make good the saloon roof once the bridge was removed...That could be just too much work for this old codger.

As I have said in an earlier post, I have my eye on a couple of motor-sailors in New Zealand and, depending how things go here at home, I could well end-up going after one of those boats. We Ozzie’s can live in NZ as long as we like and, as far as I know, we can own a car, house/home or boat in NZ...Just as Kiwi's can here in Oz. I would fly back to Oz when I had to or, I could spend the summer in NZ and return to AU with the boat to winter over in QLD.
One of the boats, motor/sailors, I have my eye on is a 13.1m 1975 English Fisher Motor-sailor, from her pictures and sales information, she needs a little tidying up but that's all. Anyway, I'm still not ready to make a move on any boat so perhaps it would be better I stopped bothering you blokes with my questions...Till I'm ready to make my move.

Thanks to everyone for your advice, it's most appreciated.

Bill
Australia
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:15 AM   #12
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Thanks for your offer of help Hendo, much appreciated mate but I think I'll give the old girl a miss, she's just so much more boat than my needs, which is one man and his dog living aboard full time, plus a couple of fishing buddies seeking a free fishing holiday for a week or so at times. Mostly it would be just me and the dog, laying at anchor somewhere on the Ozzie coast, NZ or SE Asia if the mood took me.

Benn, she really is a beaut boat, I did think, if I bought that old girl, I could remove the flying bridge but...The broker informs me...Quote: The Previous owner was an engineer who owned her for 40 years and designed and built her beautifully. End Quote...If the PO is anything like myself, then I bet he built the fly-bridge real strong and it could be a major project to remove the fly-bridge and make good the saloon roof once the bridge was removed...That could be just too much work for this old codger.

As I have said in an earlier post, I have my eye on a couple of motor-sailors in New Zealand and, depending how things go here at home, I could well end-up going after one of those boats. We Ozzie’s can live in NZ as long as we like and, as far as I know, we can own a car, house/home or boat in NZ...Just as Kiwi's can here in Oz. I would fly back to Oz when I had to or, I could spend the summer in NZ and return to AU with the boat to winter over in QLD.
One of the boats, motor/sailors, I have my eye on is a 13.1m 1975 English Fisher Motor-sailor, from her pictures and sales information, she needs a little tidying up but that's all. Anyway, I'm still not ready to make a move on any boat so perhaps it would be better I stopped bothering you blokes with my questions...Till I'm ready to make my move.

Thanks to everyone for your advice, it's most appreciated.

Bill
Australia
No worries mate
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:12 AM   #13
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As time goes by I am getting more and more impressed with the power of Marketing. Today, everybody talks about the big evil that represents a wooden boat as this was a curse from the devil. Almost everybody, specially the plastic advocates, run from a wooden boat as the devil runs from the cross. The boat in question was originally made in 1914, meaning she is 98 years old.
I would like to be here to see a 98 years old fiberglass boat.

Unbelievable

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Old 11-05-2012, 08:47 AM   #14
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As time goes by I am getting more and more impressed with the power of Marketing. Today, everybody talks about the big evil that represents a wooden boat as this was a curse from the devil. Almost everybody, specially the plastic advocates, run from a wooden boat as the devil runs from the cross. The boat in question was originally made in 1914, meaning she is 98 years old.
I would like to be here to see a 98 years old fiberglass boat.

Unbelievable

Portuguese
I hear you mate I do like wooden boats but that 98 yo old girl is just to much boat for my needs, otherwise I would love to own her.
Now don't faint but the motor/sailors I have my eye on are...Ferro-Cement and so many folk run faster from FC boats than they do from wooden boats. I guess they forget...A well built boat, in any material, is still a well built boat...Like yours, she a beaut
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:20 PM   #15
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I hear you mate I do like wooden boats but that 98 yo old girl is just to much boat for my needs, otherwise I would love to own her.
Now don't faint but the motor/sailors I have my eye on are...Ferro-Cement and so many folk run faster from FC boats than they do from wooden boats. I guess they forget...A well built boat, in any material, is still a well built boat...Like yours, she a beaut
Remember Helsal, aka "the flying footpath", a successful Sydney-Hobart competitor, designed by the Australian yacht designer Joe Adams (recently murdered in the Philippines).
Kando,you have an eye for boats that are unusual in some way. Do FC hulls get "concrete cancer" or is that the province of certain apartment builders?
Good luck with your search. Whenever you regret passing on something there is always another one around the corner. BruceK
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:35 PM   #16
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Bruce,
The "brick" boats certainly do get cancer.
Usually one can tell after about 10 years, so if the hull is 10 yeras old or more and hasn't been patched it is usually an indication that it is a goodun.

Big problem with them is insurance, but there is a firm out here that will ensure ferro boats they advertise in "Cruising Helmsman" often.
There were some very well established ferro yachts built in WA in the late 70s early 80s
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:11 PM   #17
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Bill,

Has she been fasten? That has to be the first question ask. I've been told that a good refastening job in the states could cost as much as $10,000.00 US... Guesing a little more in Australia.

I've been visiting all the Australian website for boats for sale. Will be down around Dec 23rd. Hope to look at a few boats. Looking for something blue water, that I can take back to Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands.

Also looking for a boat trip New Years Eve on Sydney Habour,,, hint hint mates..... LOL

Bill W.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:22 PM   #18
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Concrete is not Ferro-Cement

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Remember Helsal, aka "the flying footpath", a successful Sydney-Hobart competitor, designed by the Australian yacht designer Joe Adams (recently murdered in the Philippines).
Kando,you have an eye for boats that are unusual in some way. Do FC hulls get "concrete cancer" or is that the province of certain apartment builders?
Good luck with your search. Whenever you regret passing on something there is always another one around the corner. BruceK
G'day Bruce,

There have been many FC boats built over the years, some shockers and some real beauties. I believe the shockers were built by people who thought they knew much more than the FC boat designers...I often wonder why people buy plans for any boat, then decide they can do a better job and proceed to alter the plans to such a degree that the finished boat is a disaster waiting to happen.

If I wanted to build a FC boat, (I've built two Ply/West System boats and yes, I stuck to the plans) I would buy plans from FC boat designers, such as Hartley or Wilf O'Kell, they are the two best known FC designer/builders in this part of the world, I would follow every step in the plans to the letter and I would end-up with a safe, go-anywhere FC boat.

There is a bleeding big difference between Ferro-Cement and Concrete. No-matter what you read on-line, Ferro-Cement is NOT Concrete. Any FC boat, pro built or backyard built, where the builder built to plan back in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or whenever, that has been maintained, will still be afloat and in most cases, a safe buy. Such boats will still be around long after I, and you, have moved on to the big blue beyond.
I have talked with a few local FC boat builders who built their own boats, three Hartley and two Wilf Okell, these builders all built their boats back in the 60's, then sailed-off with their families. Three of those families sailed to the UK and back again, all still own their FC boats and the boats are not for sale...To me, that says a lot about a FC boat that has been built following the plans.

As for, Do FC hulls get "concrete cancer". No, they don't because FC is not Concrete. Water can not pass through a sound FC hull or deck. What can happen is this, the hull could get damaged in a bump, that could chip a piece of plaster away and permit water to reach the steel armature. That in itself is not a problem, so long as one makes simple repairs to the damage as soon as possible.
People say, don't touch any FC boat where you see rust stains on the hull. What those people don't understand is, the rust stains are mostly caused by the tie-wire ends that have been left unclipped to close to the surface of the plaster/FC (tie-wires are used to tie the mesh to the steel rods before plastering) The tie-wire "ends" rusts causing the rust stains on the hull. This is easily fixed by grinding out a small piece of plaster and tie-wire, then re-plaster the small hole with fresh FC...No more rust stains from that tie-wire.

So, do I trust FC boats? Yes I do! Just as long as the plans were provided by a designer with a few years experience in designing FC boats (the more years experience the better) and the builder...Pro or backyard builder, stuck strictly to the plans for building and curing (plastering and curing is important) the boat. What I would not touch with a barge-pole is...A FC boat where the builder took it upon himself, alterations to make the boat better, IMHO, such altered boats should be avoided like the plague.

Cheers mates,

Bill
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:50 PM   #19
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Bill,

Has she been fasten? That has to be the first question ask. I've been told that a good refastening job in the states could cost as much as $10,000.00 US... Guesing a little more in Australia.

I've been visiting all the Australian website for boats for sale. Will be down around Dec 23rd. Hope to look at a few boats. Looking for something blue water, that I can take back to Kwajalein in the Marshall Islands.

Also looking for a boat trip New Years Eve on Sydney Habour,,, hint hint mates..... LOL

Bill W.
G'day mate,

I have told the broker that the old girl is to much boat for my needs so that's the end of that boat for me...Unless I change my mind later on, which has been known to happen
As for a sailing trip on Sydney Harbour, I'm about 12-13 hours fast drive from Sydney so that's out for me but I'm sure you will find a few Sydney-siders to take you out on the harbour for a cruise

If I lived in the Marshall Islands, I would be looking in the States, West Coast, for my next boat. Heck! I live in Oz and I still look in the States for a good boat...You'll get a better deal on a boat State-side

Cheers,

Bill
Australia
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:49 AM   #20
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Kando

I'll have a look next time I go by but Tilley is well known and respected and if the survey is good it will built like the proverbial brick one.

For my money the flybridge would have to go. Her original lines are classic.

My younger brother has a similar vintage classic, a bit of work but built of WA timbers some of which still pave the streets of London as the substrate for the roads.
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