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Old 10-12-2015, 01:08 PM   #101
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...if they are not able to meet that specification, then they are required to have a stall speed of 61 knots or below...just like a single. I think a Piper Apache(PA23) falls into this category.
Yes, the joke at HNL where there were several Apaches was the only place in the US an Apache can maintain altitude on one engine is Death Valley.
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:24 PM   #102
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The certification of light twin engine airplanes requires them to maintain a climb rate(I think the spec is 100fpm up to 5000 feet) on one engine at MGTOW and with the critical engine failed. And guess what....if they are not able to meet that specification, then they are required to have a stall speed of 61 knots or below...just like a single. I think a Piper Apache(PA23) falls into this category.
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Yes, the joke at HNL where there were several Apaches was the only place in the US an Apache can maintain altitude on one engine is Death Valley.
Baker: I believe that Piper's intention with the Apache was to have a low stall speed regardless of the certification requirements. Evidenced by the fact that the Apache's stall speed is 9 knots BELOW the 61 knot requirement that you cited.

Also, the published service ceiling is over 5000 feet. Even for the low power models.

Marin: There was I time when the Apache was one of the most ridiculed planes in the sky. The "plump" styling did not match the later trends and most Apaches were relegated to flight training and corresponding poor maintenance.

I suppose that the worst examples with filed down propellers (poor thrust), bristling with added antennas (drag), bad hydraulics that allow the gear to sag (lots of drag), and multiple layers of paint (heavy) may have performed well under the published data.

I flew my Apache 1000 hours over 9 years. I found the single engine performance to match the published data nicely.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to not want to own an Apache (there are over 100 ADs (maintenance directives)). However, I feel that the most common complaints (slow and will not fly on one engine) are completely inaccurate.

I miss flying this plane. I do not miss maintaining it.



Steve
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Old 10-13-2015, 12:53 PM   #103
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I was not singling out the Apache as a weak or undesirable airplane. I was just saying that is likely where it fell in the certification process. I think the SE service ceiling was right at 5000 or just below...which required it to fall in the stall speed category and not the rate of climb category...if that makes any sense. Anyways, I have about 200 hours in the things. It was so long ago that I would be seriously dangerous in one right now. My 737 is easier to fly than that thing....on one engine anyway. Like somebody said....it climbs just fine...but it sure takes its time in cruise!!!!
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Old 10-13-2015, 01:15 PM   #104
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Baker, I understand.

And with my little myth-busting rant, I hope I did not come across as a Zealot.

Cheers,

Steve
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Old 10-13-2015, 01:21 PM   #105
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Baker, I understand.

And with my little myth-busting rant, I hope I did not come across as a Zealot.

Cheers,

Steve
Not at all!!! Just defending your baby!!!
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:26 PM   #106
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A common argument in favor of single-engine boats is that commercial fishing boats are generally single engine. But.... these boats are mostly crewed, particularly with the larger seiners, gillnetters, crabbers and combination boats used today. They tend to have at least one crew member who is a very good mechanic. And they have the space and capacity to carry a lot of spares and tools.
Marin, that's misleading. For purposes of comparison, it makes more sense to concentrate on fishboats of size comparable to most recreational trawlers, say 32 to 42 feet... These modest gillnetters and trollers typically operate with a crew of two, and don't waste fishhold space on "lots of spares and tools". If single engines were a big liability for them, they would be twin engined -- but they aren't. Search the marine investigation reports for westcoast fishboats by Transport Canada and the NTSB, and let us know if you find any that mention engine failure.
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:36 PM   #107
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If single engines were a big liability for them, they would be twin engined -- but they aren't.
Anyone who tries to earn a living from the ocean is going to be pretty cost conscious. A single engine boat is less expensive to build, buy, and maintain. One engine takes up a lot less room and weighs less than two, space and capacity that can be used for fish and fishing's supporting equipment.

The smaller fishboats would be single engine regardless of any differences in the reliability of singles vs twins because a twin engine fishboat would carry too great an economic penalty.

If I had a dollar for every book or magazine story I've read over the last 30 years or so about a one or two person troller or gillnetter working the BC coast that talked about engine problems creating bad situations that could have been avoided with a twin I could afford that Fleming I've always wanted.

Now these fishermen were not bemoaning the fact they didn't have a twin, they were simply describing how even a minor engine problem can suddenly put a boat in a very bad situation if the problem occurs in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:56 PM   #108
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I think the SE service ceiling was right at 5000 or just below...which required it to fall in the stall speed category and not the rate of climb category...if that makes any sense.
I got my multi engine rating in 1967, in an Apache. All my SE work was done at Prescott, AZ (5,000 ft ) If you didn't nail SE best rate of climb on the airspeed indicator, you were coming down. I flew the plane out of Flagstaff and all over Arizona (both engines running) and had a wonderful time until my G.I. Bill money ran out.Later my multi engine hours were in a Cessna 337, a 310 and a Beach. Baron Best time of my life!
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:42 PM   #109
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My example of work boats was lobster boats. They are mostly in the 35-45 foot size range and normally carry two crew (the license holder and a sternman). Those boats are universally single engine. Around here they all fish in the open ocean. The bigger boats that fish in the winter are in the 40-55 foot range with most around 45 feet. Most of them carry two crew although a few have three. Winter lobster fishing is mostly done 20 to 50 miles out and the boats tend to stay out for several days at a time. Again those boats are all singles.

I suspect that part of the reason they are singles is that a twin would have considerably more than twice the chance of fouling a prop on a trap line.
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Old 10-14-2015, 06:45 AM   #110
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The Key West lobster guys LOVE huge engines.

I was aboard one where too rapid shifting spun the prop off the shaft.

He called his kid to come tow him home and the tow was done with both !!! boats up on the plane at a guess 20K.

That a big time single engine!
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Old 10-14-2015, 08:01 AM   #111
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The Key West lobster guys LOVE huge engines.

I was aboard one where too rapid shifting spun the prop off the shaft.

He called his kid to come tow him home and the tow was done with both !!! boats up on the plane at a guess 20K.

That a big time single engine!
Why didn't he dive for his prop? What happened to the cotter pin and double nuts? If the son simply brought out a new prop, no tow would have been needed... Still, key west explains a lot.

Stu
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Old 10-14-2015, 08:20 AM   #112
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Why didn't he dive for his prop? What happened to the cotter pin and double nuts? If the son simply brought out a new prop, no tow would have been needed... Still, key west explains a lot.

Stu
I read that as he wrung (broke) the shaft at the prop.

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Old 10-14-2015, 08:36 AM   #113
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lucky that it broke outside the hull
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Old 10-14-2015, 09:19 AM   #114
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Twins - Cause I love ta hear em sing together in revolving harmony when rpm's are perfectly synced. That IS a cool melody!

Kidding aside (sorta)... IMO

Singles are only superior to twins on one aspect: Due to full skeg off keel and back to rudder that can greatly protect the prop during easy grounding. Therein also becoming enabled is cage affair installation to thwart line snags on prop. But, if you are really careful none of that should happen.

Otherwise - Twins and planing hull with hard chines is my boat design of choice. Just make sure you always watch your depth sounder, go very slow in shallow waters, swim a lot!!! And, Play Baby - PLAY!
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:46 AM   #115
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Okay, single or twin??

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Singles are only superior to twins on one aspect: Due to full skeg off keel and back to rudder that can greatly protect the prop during easy grounding. Therein also becoming enabled is cage affair installation to thwart line snags on prop.
Well I like a big rudder too, but that's just me - others may not be as picky about what direction they're going.

I'm also kinda partial to a low COG and rolling moment. And a flat shaft angle, and a big prop, well down in the water. Again, that's just me - others might be happy squirreling along with marginal efficiency and control.

Oh, and I like large tanks. You know, for range.

Keith
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:39 PM   #116
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Well I like a big rudder too, but that's just me - others may not be as picky about what direction they're going.

I'm also kinda partial to a low COG and rolling moment. And a flat shaft angle, and a big prop, well down in the water. Again, that's just me - others might be happy squirreling along with marginal efficiency and control.

Oh, and I like large tanks. You know, for range.

Keith
Keith you don't know how many people you have just PO'd with these truisms.
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:27 PM   #117
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Saw a flight of five or six F6F Hellcats fly overhead last week. All single-engine; none fell out of the sky. (Different-from-the-norm-sounding engines drew me out of the house to see what was about.)
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Old 10-14-2015, 02:05 PM   #118
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Saw a flight of five or six F6F Hellcats fly overhead last week. All single-engine; none fell out of the sky. (Different-from-the-norm-sounding engines drew me out of the house to see what was about.)
Tough game to play Mark. A sad one too. Became familiar with the Pilatus story and airplane a few years through a nephew who regularly flew one. While he was doing that gig another one went down in MT with 14 on board. Unfortunately sad stories of this kind involving small airplanes never seem to let up.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:24 PM   #119
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Tough game to play Mark. A sad one too. Became familiar with the Pilatus story and airplane a few years through a nephew who regularly flew one. While he was doing that gig another one went down in MT with 14 on board. Unfortunately sad stories of this kind involving small airplanes never seem to let up.
Sunchaser, not sure if your were commenting on SINGLE ENGINE aircraft or not.

But just to clarify, That single engine Pilatus crash that you mentioned did not involve an engine failure.

The error chain in action: Pilatus crash at Butte - Air Facts Journal

I agree that in general, small propeller driven aircraft safety (single or twin) is poor when compared to other modes of transportation like jet airliners or cars.

Steve
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Old 10-14-2015, 06:57 PM   #120
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Well I like a big rudder too, but that's just me - others may not be as picky about what direction they're going.

I'm also kinda partial to a low COG and rolling moment. And a flat shaft angle, and a big prop, well down in the water. Again, that's just me - others might be happy squirreling along with marginal efficiency and control.

Oh, and I like large tanks. You know, for range.

Keith
Yup, and all that space on both sides of the engine.

Ted
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