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Old 10-11-2015, 06:06 AM   #81
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80 posts and no discussion (or at least I haven't noticed it) of the tendency of single engine long distance trawlers in out of the way places to have an auxiliary engine (wing/kicker/get-home) mounted off center. These are usually Yanmar 27 hp on the Krogen 42s and Nordhavn 46s, and larger (Yanmar 40??) on the 48s and 50s.

In many ways this arrangement has the benefit of both twins and singles and is significantly less expensive than twins.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:24 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
80 posts and no discussion (or at least I haven't noticed it) of the tendency of single engine long distance trawlers in out of the way places to have an auxiliary engine (wing/kicker/get-home) mounted off center. These are usually Yanmar 27 hp on the Krogen 42s and Nordhavn 46s, and larger (Yanmar 40??) on the 48s and 50s.

In many ways this arrangement has the benefit of both twins and singles and is significantly less expensive than twins.
Marty I mentioned it in post 28. Bottom line, most if not all of the commonly known single brands built in the past decade have get homes. So they are essentially twins in disguise.

As example, how many single engine Nordhavns are without a well thought out spare installed engine and drive train? Answer is obvious.
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Marty I mentioned it in post 28. Bottom line, most if not all of the commonly known single brands built in the past decade have get homes. So they are essentially twins in disguise.

As example, how many single engine Nordhavns are without a well thought out spare installed engine and drive train? Answer is obvious.
Guess following that logic, the single with the 15' tender and 35 hp outboard is a twin also.

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Old 10-11-2015, 11:17 AM   #84
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Single,Bow Thruster, Vessel Assist.
I prefer twins for all the reasons stated above, plus at least in most cases, the added power and speed you may need to get out of a bad situation.

Nothing says you can't putter around on one engine.

That said, the single will give you better efficiency and lower operating cost as previously stated.

As someone else mentioned.
If you're mostly inshore, vessel assistance is readily available, and you're not doing large open water crossings, and more than anything your budgetary constraints, the single may be the ticket.

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Old 10-11-2015, 11:28 AM   #85
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Marty I mentioned it in post 28. Bottom line, most if not all of the commonly known single brands built in the past decade have get homes. So they are essentially twins in disguise.
Thanks, had forgotten the line in post 28. I feel there is a great difference between a single engine with an auxiliary and a twin engine boat. The main engine prop (on most) is protected by a keel, underway only one engine is used and generally the auxiliary is small taking up much less real estate in the engine room.

Our 27 hp Yanmar is tiny compared to the Lehman 135. Also a fraction of the cost.

When used for a get home the Yanmar gives us 4.5kts (flat water) and for docking the auto pitch max prop digs in and allows us to back in both directions.
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Old 10-11-2015, 11:33 AM   #86
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Guess following that logic, the single with the 15' tender and 35 hp outboard is a twin also.

Ted
The last few vessels we've tried to buy were all singles, for reasons as stated in the laborious singles vs twins threads seen on TF during the past few years.

With two primary caveats of course, a spare sizeable drive system and not planning on going faster than 10 to 12 knots.

I do like your idea though of towing a vessel assist boat behind us. Should it have one or two outboards?
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Old 10-11-2015, 12:44 PM   #87
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The last few vessels we've tried to buy were all singles, for reasons as stated in the laborious singles vs twins threads seen on TF during the past few years.

With two primary caveats of course, a spare sizeable drive system and not planning on going faster than 10 to 12 knots.

I do like your idea though of towing a vessel assist boat behind us. Should it have one or two outboards?
Doesn't matter as long as it has the right anchor.


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Old 10-11-2015, 01:14 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
80 posts and no discussion (or at least I haven't noticed it) of the tendency of single engine long distance trawlers in out of the way places to have an auxiliary engine (wing/kicker/get-home) mounted off center. These are usually Yanmar 27 hp on the Krogen 42s and Nordhavn 46s, and larger (Yanmar 40??) on the 48s and 50s.

In many ways this arrangement has the benefit of both twins and singles and is significantly less expensive than twins.
Our boat has a version of this - a 9.9hp kicker which is not only great for fishing, but also a lifesaver when the main has a problem. Our little C-Dory had one too.

Never had a bad-fuel-related incident, but have had plenty of temporary overheats due to kelp wrapped around the sterndrive and blocking water intakes, belt failures, damaged props, and one sterndrive failure. In many of those cases we would soon have been on the rocks without the kicker. It's taken us to safety from as remote locations as the west coast of Vancouver Island near Kyuquot, west coast of Chichagof Island, and partway up into Glacier Bay - I'm very fond of it.
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Old 10-11-2015, 01:46 PM   #89
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Well here is one person with twins that wishes he had a single. So I do not fit the category of "I like what I bought". Now don't get me wrong, I like my boat and I like my engines. I just don't think you will find a planning motor yacht with a single engine. So to put it briefly, I need the speed so I need the other engine.

For those that get a twin for maneuverability, that should be a bonus...not the main reason for buying one. A bow thruster is WAY cheaper and simpler than another engine. And after having significant experience with both configurations, I can maneuver a single with a bow thruster much better than a twin....and I'm pretty good with the twin. A single/bow thruster is just simpler....all the way around.

Another thing that was very briefly mentioned is engine room space....as it relates to maintenance. While I do not defer maintenance due to the cramped space in my engine space(I have a difficult time calling it an engine "room"), I do farm out a lot of work due to that space issue. I used to do pretty much all of my maintenance on my single engine boats. Now if it is a pain in the ass to get to...I call someone. Can I do it myself, most likely. Especially if I "had" to...in a pinch. But I am willing to bet there are people out there that defer maintenance just because it is difficult to get to. Something as simple as changing impellers on my boat is a multi hour job...especially on the port engine. Most boats I've had changing an impeller was a 15 minute job. I fantasize about boats like DeFevers where I can pull up a stool and sit next to my engine(s) and do whatever needs to be done. Changing an impeller on my port engine requires that I lay across the top of the motor(and using my hands as my eyes since you have to feel around down there...not enough room to get your head down there)...let's hope it's not hot!!! I also fantasize about the Tiara express cruisers where the entire deck lifts up and your engines are just sitting there...winking at you!! So for me it is space and simplicity!!!

I don't think the comparison to airplanes is all that valid. Airplanes are more complex and there is a lot more things going on(like gravity and impact with the earth) that aren't really a consideration in a boat.

Just FYI:
FAR part 23 requires that single engine airplanes stall at 61 knots or below. Coincidently, at the time those regs were made the speed limit of cars was 70mph(61 knots). The thought being that the landing speed in a forced landing situation should be close to crashing a car at the speed limit of 70mph.

The certification of light twin engine airplanes requires them to maintain a climb rate(I think the spec is 100fpm up to 5000 feet) on one engine at MGTOW and with the critical engine failed. And guess what....if they are not able to meet that specification, then they are required to have a stall speed of 61 knots or below...just like a single. I think a Piper Apache(PA23) falls into this category.

The only reason I mention this is because there is the belief that twin engines are less safe than singles and someone on this thread insinuated it. If you are proficient in the handling of an engine failure on a twin, it is a better alternative. There ain't no single engine airliners out there. There are also no on demand charters(part 135) IFR at night(human cargo) with single engines. IOW, ignorant paying passengers deserve the safety of two engines...and a qualified pilot(s).

Again...we are talking about impacting the earth at a high rate of speed...not just "getting home".
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:00 PM   #90
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I was undecided on a single or twins when shopping for my current boat. Having no SeaTow in this area and very little boat traffic, I wanted the redundancy of twins. I also have a habit of running aground occasionally, so I wanted the protected prop and rudder.

On my limited budget, I was looking at 25+ year old 30 - 35 foot boats. Anything with twins had very tight access, and the engines were nearing the end of their life. I didn't want to have to rebuild or replace two engines in very tight quarters.

In the end, the motor sailer gave me the backup power and the prop protection. I'm slowly learning the manoeuvrability. It works for me.

Neither singles or twins are better, its just a matter of suitability to the owner and the boat.
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:10 PM   #91
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Neither singles or twins are better, its just a matter of suitability to the owner and the boat.
Very nicely said!!!
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:58 PM   #92
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Old 10-11-2015, 05:47 PM   #93
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That's kinda like "boxers or briefs" it's whatever you're comfy with. Personally, I drive and prefer a twin, but, if I'd found a boat that fit everything I wanted as this one does with a single, I wouldn't have hesitated to purchase it either. It's more about the boat than the engines in my opinion.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:46 PM   #94
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First large boat for me and using primarily as live on board. Planning on having slip in SF Bay Area location or possibly as far inland as Antioch. I'd like to be able to take it out and do some fishing or cruising on multi day trips.
Will I be disappointed with a single engine vs. twins?
What are advantages and / or drawbacks from either?
I've got several on my radar but have been shying away from singles.
Please let me know your opinions and why.

Thanks
Well... now that we've covered all the usual angles on this topic...

I shake my head at some of the responses. I wonder how many actually read the OP? All the usual banter about safety, "get-home" engines, unavailability of sea-tow, crossing oceans, and need for Nordhavns. Ok... there have been some good responses and information applicable to the OP including the very well addressed pros and cons.

Folks. To bring this back full circle. He's looking primarily for a liveaboard and will be cruising the SF Bay and Delta!!! Find a boat you can live with, and definitely don't exclude the singles.

Love this forum though.
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:17 PM   #95
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Actually, there have been several responses that answered th op's questions, maybe with a little additional input :-).

Question:

"...Will I be disappointed with a single engine vs. twins?
What are advantages and / or drawbacks from either?
I've got several on my radar but have been shying away from singles.
Please let me know your opinions and why."

Answer (in progression):

1) don't know. Won't know till you try them both on for fit.

2) answered by numerous posters.
Advantages: speed, redundancy, manuverability, power to get out of a bad spot.

Disadvantages : cost, repairs and maintenance, fuel cost, unprotected props, ER space.

Here's where it gets tricky (lol):

"I've got several on my radar but have been shying away from singles.
Please let me know your opinions and why."

That's where just about everyone answered his question. "Opinions" are, well, opinions. And everyone gave him theirs including me in post 84. That's what he asked for.

I'll add one more "answer" to the list.
Don't shy away from either until you've tried them both under the conditions you plan on using yours in. With some research, conversations with the owners, and a little hands on time, you'll probably be able to decide for yourself what fits your needs, lifestyle and budget the best :-)

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Old 10-11-2015, 08:11 PM   #96
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As an operator, all my experience has been with a single engine (not counting motorless gliders, sailboats, canoes, and such): an outboard on an aluminum "row boat" on Storm Lake, Iowa, an inboard on an auxiliary sailboat in the SF estuary, an outboard on an auxiliary sailboat in the SF estuary, and now a single-engine cruiser with a bow thruster in the SF estuary. Also flown on a commercial single-engine plane between Albuquerque and Gallup (but not as the pilot). All my automobiles were single-engine. None ever failed me over fifty-plus decades.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:39 PM   #97
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Fifty decades is a lot, Mark. No wonder your posts always seem so wise!

As Richard ("Brittania") observed earlier on this thread, former sailboaters may by experience feel more instinctively at ease with a single-engined power boat. It's true for me - after years of maneuvering an underpowered displacement hulled 41' ketch with a little two-bladed prop, anything else seems positively luxurious.

Yeah, I got stranded by a bad starter once, with passengers aboard and not a breath of wind. Lashed my inflatable alongside and hip-towed back to the dock.

Also had a 3208 Cat in a twin-engined sport fisherman fail on a dark and windy night, and had to figure out how to back that thing into its slip on the remaining engine.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:42 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Off Duty View Post
Actually, there have been several responses that answered th op's questions, maybe with a little additional input :-).

Question:

"...Will I be disappointed with a single engine vs. twins?
What are advantages and / or drawbacks from either?
I've got several on my radar but have been shying away from singles.
Please let me know your opinions and why."

Answer (in progression):

1) don't know. Won't know till you try them both on for fit.

2) answered by numerous posters.
Advantages: speed, redundancy, manuverability, power to get out of a bad spot.

Disadvantages : cost, repairs and maintenance, fuel cost, unprotected props, ER space.

Here's where it gets tricky (lol):

"I've got several on my radar but have been shying away from singles.
Please let me know your opinions and why."

That's where just about everyone answered his question. "Opinions" are, well, opinions. And everyone gave him theirs including me in post 84. That's what he asked for.
Snip

OD
Well written, and I agree with most of what you wrote. Just a little observation that while we all have opinions, and I enjoy reading many of them, often the "opinion" that is posted has absolutely no relevance to what was asked. Just typical internet stuff! Maybe I'm just tired. I think I'll go to bed early. Wrestle with my kids mom.
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:09 PM   #99
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Well written, and I agree with most of what you wrote. Just a little observation that while we all have opinions, and I enjoy reading many of them, often the "opinion" that is posted has absolutely no relevance to what was asked. Just typical internet stuff! Maybe I'm just tired. I think I'll go to bed early. Wrestle with my kids mom.

Hey brother, I hear ya and agree!
Now, go forth and do battle with yon fair maiden
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:47 PM   #100
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Fifty decades is a lot, Mark. No wonder your posts always seem so wise!
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