Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-27-2018, 07:51 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Roger Long's Avatar
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 288
Oil Coolers Needed?

Like many vessels of her vintage, our Gulfstar 43 has absurdly large engines. At our normal cruise, each of the 1977 vintage naturally aspirated Perkins 6.354ís is only producing about 30 of its rated 130 horsepower. I run the boat hard for 10-20 minutes ever day or so but even at WOT, the engines would only be producing about half their rated horsepower. These particular engines seem quite happy with this operating profile. The exhaust is about the cleanest I have ever seen, oil analysis is good, the oil retains its amber color, and the dipstick markings can be seen through it even after more than 100 hours.

The dual raw water oil coolers which serve both the Velvet Drive transmissions and the engines are trouble just waiting to happen. My question: Is there any reason not to just disconnect the RW and bypass the coolers with this power profile? Many engines have no coolers at all and there would be some cooling just from the oil circulating through them. Another option might be to replace them with automotive air cooled units.

Please spare me the usual, ďI donít know anything about this but I wouldnít mess.Ē type replies. Real world experience or pointers to where I could get solid technical advice on this would be appreciated.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Roger and Patsy
"Gypsy Star" Where are we?
https://share.findmespot.com/shared/...BunICxVztYVRlg
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 08:05 AM   #2
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 20,030
The engine oil might be OK not cooled, but what are your tranny temps like?

Most of the advice I have received is dont eliminate them, but make them coolant cooled/warmed (in reality regulated to preffered op temps).
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 08:10 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Roger Long's Avatar
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
The engine oil might be OK not cooled, but what are your tranny temps like?
Good question. I just remembered that I have a remote reading thermometer on board. I should shoot the oil in line and maybe try bypassing and taking the measurement again.
__________________
Roger and Patsy
"Gypsy Star" Where are we?
https://share.findmespot.com/shared/...BunICxVztYVRlg
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 08:20 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Roger Long's Avatar
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 288
It seems to me that something like this should do the job at these power levels although I would need to check pipe size and flow restriction on this particular unit.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...AaAsOSEALw_wcB
__________________
Roger and Patsy
"Gypsy Star" Where are we?
https://share.findmespot.com/shared/...BunICxVztYVRlg
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 08:55 AM   #5
Veteran Member
 
tbtapper's Avatar
 
City: Hilton Head Island
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Lady Maria
Vessel Model: 1987 CT 35 Sundeck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 49
I have wondered about this myself. I raced cars for years and there we ran at red line all the time in the middle of summer. Obviously had oil coolers and oil temp gauges.
In our diesel application running at very slow rpm and power settings itís difficult to conceive of modern oil being remotely stressed especially with 4 or 5 gallons of oil in the sump. Diesels produce more heat than gas engines so there could be some issues there but itís hard to conceive given the over all cooling efficiency of raw water and would be easy to verify with a harbor freight infrared temp reader.
Transmissions are a whole different story, definitely need the cooler to keep temps from breaking down the oil/fluid and keeping temps stable.
All just IMO

tbtapper
tbtapper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 09:27 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Gabe n Em's Avatar
 
City: Point Judith, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: In Sanity
Vessel Model: 1981 Mainship 40'
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 408
I'd second tbtapper on the trans coolers. I've checked inlet and outflow lines on both oil and trans coolers on our turboed 6.3544ms and they're usually 10-15 deg F higher before the cooler. This is at similar, light loads (~1500 rpm). I could see all the coolant in there taking care of the oil but the trans gets pretty warm even with the coolers working!

I'm interested to hear what you come up with though! Good luck!


-Gabe
Gabe n Em is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 10:14 AM   #7
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,761
Greetings,
Mr. RL. "I don’t know anything about this but why?" You note this system is "...trouble just waiting to happen..." but so are a lot of other things aboard. You can probably eliminate the oil cooler if you want BUT there must have been a reason they were installed in the first place. Why change it if it ain't broke? We have cupro nickel coolers and other than changing them every XXX hours, it's a set and forget deal IMO. Yes, I've heard anecdotal tales of cooler failure resulting in destruction of engines and transmissions but how often does that happen with a properly serviced motor which you seem to have?

Is your quest for elimination to simplify the system? IF you do eliminate the cooler will you be placing a screen in line to trap any bits of water pump impeller in case of a failure of same?
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 10:26 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Roger Long's Avatar
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 288
Oops! I didn't think this through before posting. Since the coolers are on the suction side of the RW pump, there is no way a leak could let sea water into the oil. I guess I should be the one to say, "I don't know anything about this but don't mess." Thanks to all and apologies for wasting your time.
__________________
Roger and Patsy
"Gypsy Star" Where are we?
https://share.findmespot.com/shared/...BunICxVztYVRlg
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 10:49 AM   #9
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,761


Awww. Just when it was getting good...
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 11:49 AM   #10
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,245
I still am mystified why sea water cooled engines run salt water through the oil coolers etc.? As soon as you keel cool an engine, coolant is run through these coolers and the incidence of corrosion and the chance of cross-contamination goes to zero. Keel cooled engines don't bake toast or explode with coolant-cooled engines, why not just re-plumb and run coolant through the engine oil and transmission oil coolers? You would have to calculate whether the existing engine heat exchanger is adequate but you could add a second if necessary. The engine heat exchanger is a nuisance if it fails but it will not kill the engine if it fails like a failed oil cooler will. You will still have to run the waste salt water out through the exhaust so that part won't change. The oil temperatures in the engine and transmission will be perfect if the coolant temperature is within limits.
This would simplify maintenance and lower costs too, with a caveat that you "might" need a larger engine cooler or a larger water pump.
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:14 PM   #11
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
Oops! I didn't think this through before posting. Since the coolers are on the suction side of the RW pump,.
Doesn't this mean your coolers are between the raw water pump and the through hull valve?
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:28 PM   #12
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,761
Greetings,
Mr. X. Now, THERE'S an interesting question, to be sure. Makes a heck of a lot of sense. Oversize the heat exchanger, if necessary, and cool everything via appropriate plumbing. GOOD idea. DAYUM!!! Yet another thing to add to the "list". Thanks a lot (NOT). Have a drink, in any case...

__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:40 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
timb's Avatar
 
City: Oriental N.C.
Country: usa
Vessel Name: true heading
Vessel Model: marine trader 38 dc
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
I still am mystified why sea water cooled engines run salt water through the oil coolers etc.? As soon as you keel cool an engine, coolant is run through these coolers and the incidence of corrosion and the chance of cross-contamination goes to zero. Keel cooled engines don't bake toast or explode with coolant-cooled engines, why not just re-plumb and run coolant through the engine oil and transmission oil coolers? You would have to calculate whether the existing engine heat exchanger is adequate but you could add a second if necessary. The engine heat exchanger is a nuisance if it fails but it will not kill the engine if it fails like a failed oil cooler will. You will still have to run the waste salt water out through the exhaust so that part won't change. The oil temperatures in the engine and transmission will be perfect if the coolant temperature is within limits.
This would simplify maintenance and lower costs too, with a caveat that you "might" need a larger engine cooler or a larger water pump.
if I'm not mistaken my American diesel uses the coolant loop for the engine oil cooler but uses raw water for the trans oil cooler. It's half way there.
timb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 12:45 PM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 20,030
Am Diesel has a cooler/kit to change over to coolant cooled.

They do NOT recommend coolant cooled tranny cooler. At least when I called.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 02:16 PM   #15
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,245
Funny they only recommend half...my Cummins has engine oil, transmission and turbocharger cooled by coolant but my keel cooler is my entire keel so I have no idea its capacity, it is not a commercial unit with specifications I can check. I can, however, run WOT for 24 hours a day and it won't overheat (seems very frantic, rushing about at 10 knots but the noise is horrendous) but I did have to get a larger coolant overflow tank because the coolant expanded considerably when I ran WOT and it overflowed - now I'm totally contained with a repurposed dragster fuel tank [made out of TIG-welded aluminum 8^)].

Heat exchangers are readily available and there are many quality-made non-Chinesium coolers out there if you have to add some more capacity.

RT, you're using my likeness without my permission...wait...uh...oh...right. Disregard.
A real British pub is my happy place. I wish we had such a civilized way to have a pint without being shouted at or music-ed to death in my country. And a pint of bitter has not much alcohol so you can drink a delicious pint with friends and not get sloppy or stupid. Or you can drink numerous pints and get sloppy and stupid and happy, if you wish. Long live the British pub!
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 02:21 PM   #16
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,245
One last thing, if you insist on using a transmission oil cooler with salt, take it off and replace it with a spare every few years and have the take-off serviced. Losing a trans cooler will ruin your fun and will cost you a lot.
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 02:34 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Roger Long's Avatar
 
City: Albany, NY
Country: Albany
Vessel Name: Gypsy Star
Vessel Model: Gulf Star 43
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Doesn't this mean your coolers are between the raw water pump and the through hull valve?
,

Yes. Seacock > strainer > engine oil/transmission cooler > RW pump > engine.
__________________
Roger and Patsy
"Gypsy Star" Where are we?
https://share.findmespot.com/shared/...BunICxVztYVRlg
Roger Long is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 03:23 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
TomandJeri's Avatar
 
City: Lake Ontario
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Trawler Shopping 35-40'
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Am Diesel has a cooler/kit to change over to coolant cooled.

They do NOT recommend coolant cooled tranny cooler. At least when I called.
Probably because engine coolant runs around 200F [93C], which is the same neighborhood as the engine oil, but hydraulic systems normally run around 140F [60C], give or take, and we try to keep continuous-duty gear reducers at or below that temperature range.

We used to design for oil-to-air hydraulic coolers in front of diesel engine radiators in custom builds (pusher fans, but a low delta-T) in high hp hydraulic system applications, so the hydraulic oil cooler gets the cooler air. The jacket water radiator would be oversized as well as the fan, but with Tier IV engines and aftercoolers and the EPA and such, we use separate heat exchangers now with their own fans so we don't have to deal with complicated combination heat exchanger packages and approvals and so on; easier just to use the factory package and find a place to put a big hydraulic cooler and fan. This is industrial/construction industry stuff, but the fluids don't know the difference.

Just a guess on my part.
TomandJeri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 03:43 PM   #19
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
,

Yes. Seacock > strainer > engine oil/transmission cooler > RW pump > engine.
The new Vetus (Mitsubishi) marine engines have the same configuration.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 06:37 PM   #20
Guru
 
City: Fairport
Country: United States
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
Like many vessels of her vintage, our Gulfstar 43 has absurdly large engines. At our normal cruise, each of the 1977 vintage naturally aspirated Perkins 6.354ís is only producing about 30 of its rated 130 horsepower. I run the boat hard for 10-20 minutes ever day or so but even at WOT, the engines would only be producing about half their rated horsepower. These particular engines seem quite happy with this operating profile. The exhaust is about the cleanest I have ever seen, oil analysis is good, the oil retains its amber color, and the dipstick markings can be seen through it even after more than 100 hours.

The dual raw water oil coolers which serve both the Velvet Drive transmissions and the engines are trouble just waiting to happen. My question: Is there any reason not to just disconnect the RW and bypass the coolers with this power profile? Many engines have no coolers at all and there would be some cooling just from the oil circulating through them. Another option might be to replace them with automotive air cooled units.

Please spare me the usual, ďI donít know anything about this but I wouldnít mess.Ē type replies. Real world experience or pointers to where I could get solid technical advice on this would be appreciated.
When an engineer designs cooling systems, they need to worry with close to "worst case". Part of that equation is the raw water temperature. There are parts of the world with sea temps at 90 deg F at the surface. The FL keys is close to that in the summer. In our neck of the woods, the highest temperature at the surface is closer to 72. That is to your benefit with this idea. The other is torque and speed into the transmission. I ran my VD's at up to 4400 rpm in my last boat, and they did not run hot. Running 2000 is less stress, although the torque plays heavily here also.

question: why is WOT at only half power setting? Under or over pitched?
__________________

diver dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×