Oil change Needed

[Wxx3]

OK

I had debated whether this post this question, as it makes me feel pretty stupid. More so than usual.

When I left Waterford for the boat yard at New Ross, the plan was to change the oil as I waited for the water to flood for the lift.

I forgot. Totally.

Now, Dauntless is out of the water for winter with oil that has 200+ hours on it.

I can hardly sleep at night if I think about it.

I will be going to Ireland in December for a few days to do a few things for winter.

Concerning the oil, I am thinking of the following:

1. Put my little electric heater under oil pan for 24 hours. This will probably get oil temp to 75f at best.
2. Heat up some oil in microwave, put it into engine
3. Change oil normally
4. Turn engine over momentarily, not fire,
5. Pull out another few quarts
6. Refill and done

What do you think?

Am I worrying too much over nothing? Or is the above plan worthwhile?
Any parts I should absolutely do or NOT do?

 

[cardude01]

What does it hurt to have "old oil" in the engine during the winter layup?

 

[Gurryman]

Pull the impeller from the raw water pump, run the engine at idle. Engine at idle will develop little exhaust temp, you can use an infrared temp gun to monitor exhaust hose temp.

 

[bayview]

Go to sleep until spring. No sweat.

 

[Larry M]

Go to sleep until spring. No sweat.

 

[Xsbank]

Leave it. I agree that it doesn't matter.

 

[Bay Pelican]

Change the oil normally. Unless the weather is below freezing you will get the bulk of the impurities away from the engine. My thought anyway.

 

[jleonard]

I wouldn't bother trying to heat it up. I change oil cold often.
Or just leave it as suggested. I think it does more harm in theory than in practicality.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The reason to change is chemical .. acids and corrosion ect. Don't know the details so I can't jump on the bandwagon w the last three posts. I know oil sitting over the winter is not ideal but I don't know the extent of the dangers. One changes oil usually after running the engine while at usual full warm temp .. like 170-180 degrees. That is to get contaminants .. probably mostly solids suspended in the oil so they will be extracted w the oil change. As to the corrosion causing chemicals .. they may be in suspension in your engine oil as we speak. Changing cold now may get them out of the oil in the crankcase but not the oil in the engine.

However in the spring you will want to change out the oil whether you change it now or not so if you change it now in a manner of speaking that will be wasting 30 quarts of oil.

Another question that arises to me is what are the downsides or dangers to pulling out the oil cold now and having the engine spend the winter w no oil in the crankcase? And that leads to the question of would that be any different than leaving the oil in the crankcase till spring? Perhaps condensation would be more likely inside the crankcase w no oil in it.

Perhaps Larry, bayview and Gurryman are right and that leaves me on the bandwagon w them. I'd like to see David's and Sunchaser's opinions on this. And the oil up in the engine not in the crankcase will remain in the engine w whatever chemicals it contains for the duration even if you change the oil cold now.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

When you go to change the oil heat the pan so the oil flows easier. But otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Marin]

I've had to change the oil in one of our FL120s when it was cold. Our usual procedure is to pull the oil out through the dipstick tube with a pump after the engine has been run up under load to near operating temperature (oil filter warm).

The cold 30wt oil was so thick that while the pump did pull it out it was incredibly slow. So much so that after nearly an hour I had gotten less than a gallon out. In this case I could not run the engine to heat up the oil so I finally simply removed the drain plug and let it all run into the drip pan and then cleaned it out.

The issue with leaving a diesel sit for long periods with dirty oil is the acids that build up in the oil can attack bearing/bushing surfaces. I have no idea how long it takes to do this or how "acidic" the oil has to be to cause damage.

I don't know how long it will be until you launch and use the boat again. If it's three or four months it's probably no big deal. If it's going to be sitting for longer than that I'd want to get advice from someone in the diesel engine industry who knows the specifics of this issue.

In my case I have a good friend who for decades until his recent retirement was the head of the engineering department at Northern Lights/Lugger aka Alaska Diesel Electric. I suspect that someone like him would be knowledgeable on the realities of this issue.

I have never heard any credible recommendation to change the oil prior to a winter (or any) layup and then change it again in the spring. That to me makes no sense. The clean oil is just sitting there being clean all winter so why change it out prior to using the engine in the spring?

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Great, we just got him to sleep through the night and you two show up to scare him awake with the dreaded acid attack issue.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Richard,
You can un-hook the hose from the seacock and put it in a plastic bucket. Run the engine normally at idle or slightly above continually adding water to the bucket as the engine pumps the water out. As long as you have the water supply (preferably a hose w pressure) you can run the engine gracefully as long as you like. It's easy to do ... I have done this. When you're through you can use the rig to pump some RV ATF into the seawater system for the winter.

Bill re Marin's scareing him he did say he didn't know how long it would take to cause damage. But as Marin says the acid issue does exist and should be considered.

 

[Wxx3]

Pull the impeller from the raw water pump, run the engine at idle. Engine at idle will develop little exhaust temp, you can use an infrared temp gun to monitor exhaust hose temp.

Thanks all.

THis was my first idea. But then thought the risks outweighed the gains.

Since most here are telling me to leave it until March, that seems like a plan.

In the past, with 30wt oil, as Marin mentioned, it hardly comes out and I think it will burn up the oil pump before I got 14 qts out.

now there is 15w 40. I don't think it will flow much easier cold, 45F,.

Yes, the whole acid buildup is exactly what I do fear. As well as the added moisture that can now deposit itself on metal cold metal parts for the winter.

I will sleep better knowing it's not a slam dunk answer in any case.

Pulling the impeller does seem easy and there should be no other parts affected by no water flow.

 

[Xsbank]

Guilt is a powerful motivator! The acid build-up thingy is overblown hype. Does anybody have any actual, documented proof of engine damage caused by acids? Damage happens to bearings when the oil film breaks down and the surfaces touch. Crank your engine in the spring with the fuel shut-off solenoid pulled until oil pressure then start it. Then once it's nice and warm, change the oil.

The rest is marketing. Only a tiny percentage if us will ever wear out our engines...

Have a nice winter!

 

[FF]

OLD OIL will have mostly lost its additive package in 200 hours.

The loss of antifoaming agents is not a problem, but the loss of acid eaters and the many other goodies that make up 15-20% of the oil package might.

I would do what I could to change the oil, and spin it over to put the oil in service..

Simply overfilling with oil might help with some of the lost chemicals.

Did you fog the engine to lube the cylinder walls and valves, before shutdown?

Did you drain the exhaust so and perhaps lift muffler so there is not a constant source of moisture to rust and pit the cylinder walls?

Does your Mfg service book require a preserving oil to be run thru the injection system , for out of service for over 30 days?

Don't remember who, Cat Cummins one of them has preserving oil that is volatile and will help if simply poured into the crank case.

Da Book , from the guys that built the engine , not just marinized, it should always be your guide.

Fear not I dont think 1 engine in 50 (yacht service) is done every year by Da Book , yet they still keep chugging along.

 

[Wxx3]

Thanks again all.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Seriously, don't loose sleep over it. Untold thousands if not millions of gallons of perfectly good modern motor oil are changed out every year for no good reason other then marketing hype.

You've got a Lehman for crying out loud.

Other than Marin's English tractor motor experts who seem to think they are delicate little flowers, everybody I know that works on them thinks they are darn near bullet proof and the last thing that's going to harm them in any measurable way is an oil change delayed by a few months.

For the fun of it you could pull a sample of the oil when you change it and send it off to say Blackstone labs and see what condition it was in. You might be in for a pleasant surprise. Because remember, that oil you are pulling out at 200 hours would be the same oil you'd use in an engine that has say a 250 hour change recommendation.

http://m.blackstone-labs.com

 

[Hawgwash]

Seriously, don't loose sleep over it. Untold thousands if not millions of gallons of perfectly good modern motor oil are changed out every year for no good reason other then marketing hype.

You've got a Lehman for crying out loud.

the last thing that's going to harm them in any measurable way is an oil change delayed by a few months.

And untold thousands if not millions of boats get used two weeks a year, sit for multiple seasons without oil changes and live long lives.

To me, given the use and care most of us employ, there is no demonstrated wrong answer.

Richard, don't worry about it.

 

[gaston]

What brand of oil is best

 

[Marin]

Other than Marin's English tractor motor experts who seem to think they are delicate little flowers,

Ignorance is bliss isn't it Mr. Bill.

My UK acquaintances do not think the Dorset is a "delicate little flower" (another amateur-hour absurdity) but they know damn well what its weak points are and how to avoid provoking them.

Most of these guys have forgotten more about diesel engines--- particularly that generation of engines--- than the people who profess expertise on them here will ever know. Which is why I give pretty much zero credibility on stuff that actually matters to internet forums full of self-proclaimed experts and strongly advise others to seek out information from people whose credibility they can judge for themselves, preferably in person.

Forums like this are good fun, but when anyone here says on a clear day the sky is blue, look up first before you buy into their "advice."

 

[dannc]

Go to sleep and change the oil next year.

If you are running an oil that meets the engine specifications and changing per the manual I would not worry about leaving the old oil in the crankcase over winter.

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

...
For the fun of it you could pull a sample of the oil when you change it and send it off to say Blackstone labs and see what condition it was in. You might be in for a pleasant surprise. Because remember, that oil you are pulling out at 200 hours would be the same oil you'd use in an engine that has say a 250 hour change recommendation.

http://m.blackstone-labs.com

I put this in my post to not worry about but then decided I was talking to much.

So here is what I took out:

I just went 15,000 miles on the oil in my truck. Recommended change is 5,000 miles. Used Oil Analysis(UOA) said I could have gone a bit more time on the oil but the TBN was 5 so it was a good time to change. The TBN should not go lower than 5. On this oil, I think it started at 12-14. Other oil parameters were just fine. I don't like to run that long but that is what had to happen.

I am getting some lead in the oil which is curious but the engine has 205,000 miles and is 14 years old. The usual wear indicators are low.

Psst. Psst. Shhhh. Don't tell anyone....

Once upon a time....

I went THREE years before changing the oil in my tractor engine, a Yanmar, BTW. Oil had very low hours, unfortunately, looked new and the oil analysis showed the oil was all but new. I threw away perfectly good oil.

Having said this I use very good oils. For a long time I was using JD 0wX40 oil but I have now moved to Shell 0Wx40 since it is easier for me to get. In the past I have used Shell 5Wx 40 oil with similar results. Using an oil the meets the specifications of the engine is all one really needs. I use a bit better oil since I am running longer hours, time on the engine, and doing cold weather starts.

Last trip to buy oil, I noticed there are a LOT of oils that would could think are diesel rated but are NOT. One really has to read the label. This used to be simpler.

I have been using Blackstone for years since I want to know what is going on in my engines and to the oil. The UOA gives me information, saves me time and maybe saves some chump change. The cost of UOA really saves me time which is worth the cost. Knowing the state of the oil is just a bonus.

Later,
Dan

 

[Marin]

Richard--- I just got off the phone on another matter with my friend who for decades was the head of engineering at Alaska Diesel Electric aka Northern Lights/Lugger. This is a fellow who actually knows what he's talking about when it comes to diesels used in marine service. So I asked him about the oil-change before layup thing.

He said that if a diesel is going to be laid up for a month or three, unless the oil is extremely dirty there is nothing to be gained by changing it in terms of the acidity issue.

If the engine is going to be laid up for six months or more and the oil is dirty, it would be a good idea to change the oil and run the engine to distribute it throughout the engine before shutting it down for the layup period.

Running an engine periodically during a period when the boat itself is not going to be taken out is a good thing to do but ONLY if the engine is brought up to operating temperature and then kept there for a period of time. Just starting it, running it for a few minutes, and then shutting it down is worse than not running it at all in terms of the effect on the oil.

I asked him if he had ever seen engine components that had been damaged by effects of oil acidity acting on them and he said he's heard of it happening from a few customers over the years but he has never actually seen it himself.

So you can draw your own conclusions from that. While the oil change interval for an FL120 as spelled out in the Lehman operating manual is 200 hours (it's different in the original Ford Dorset manual), I suspect that the oil is not all that dirty after that period, particularly in boat service.

 

[AKDoug]

Take a garden hose, pop the top off the raw water strainer, run your fresh water into the raw water strainer and just run the engine for a few minutes to circulate the oil. I don't think I would run it long enough to get the engine up to temperature, just long enough to circulate the oil through a few cycles and pick up some of the"solids". Then pump it out as normal and change the filter. I always run it for a few after the oil change to get fresh oil into my system as well.

That's how I winterize too, pop the top off the strainer and just pour my anti-freeze in the top of the strainer with the through hull valve shut off. Let the raw water exhaust normally and you're good to go.

That way you won't be feeling guilty all winter...

 

[Capt.Bill11]

What brand of oil is best

The one you use.

 

[Comodave]

I just took Bob Smith's Lehman 2 day seminar last month. Great class, but Bob says it was the last one he is able to teach. He recommends using straight 30 or 40 weight oil depending on the climate you are boating in. As to changing the oil in the fall, Bob recommended not changing it in the fall, but rather changing the oil in the spring. He said he thought the acid issue was not really an issue. I had always done the fall oil change, but now I am not as worried about it.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Ignorance is bliss isn't it Mr. Bill.

I wouldn't know. So I'll just take your word on it.

As to my "delicate little flower" comment, that was tongue in cheek and meant as bait.

Know any good taxidermist in your area?

 

[Marin]

Richard--- BTW, in the opinion of my Northern Lights/Lugger friend, with regards to your current concern it's not one to worry about.

I wouldn't know.

Oh, look! There goes the point.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Comodave,
Remember though this is the same guy that recomends MMO.

I sure do agree w him on the straight wt oil. Multi-vis provides no advantage in a boat.