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Old 11-20-2015, 04:51 PM   #81
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Ski in NC. That's nothing, think of every UPS truck with a Cummins B series in it. They shut the motor off at Every stop. Also many stationary stand by generators are run/cycled on timers, weekly/monthly spool right up to 1800 from cold, and last for years/decades. It is unlikely most here would see any effects from starting engines that have sat for a month or 2. The way you guys talk about these engines you would think they are make out of glass!
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:17 PM   #82
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One of the deficiencies of the Lehman is it uses an oil filter without a check valve. When you shut off, almost all the oil draind back in the sump. I corrected my Lehman by up-ending the filter, mounting it like a cup so the oil wouldn't drain. The result was much quicker oil pressure on startup and much less mess when changing the filter.
Not sure how effective they are but my filters for my Lehman (remote oil filter but that is what American Diesel contends is standard) have an anti drainback valve.

Purolator 30001 on the remote filter adapter.

So does the FL-1A Ford filter.

Probably why they don't care how you mount the remote mount. My filters are always full of oil when I remove them.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:32 PM   #83
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I don't buy into the big time wear at start-up theory.

If that was true why would perfectly good engineers install a self draining oil filter on an engine? They wouldn't. The residual oil film is plenty of lube protection for start up.

However for some peace of mind I will crank my engine three times for 7-8 seconds w a two minute rest period when my engine hasn't been started for well over a month. Otherwise I just start-r-up. And w my glow plugs it starts almost instantly.

And again road vehicles benefit from milti-vis oil because they are exposed to cold temps. Not so on boats 99% of our trawlers never see temps below 50 degrees prior to starting. No use for MV oil.

And for those that think MV oil gives more oil flow at startup consider the fact that oil pumps are positive displacement pumps. X number of revolutions = X volume of fluid pumped. And lube oils are not compressible to my knowledge.
There is no residual oil film. That's the point. Dry engine, that's when the wear occurs. Seems elementary to me but it is just an opinion.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:35 PM   #84
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If 90% of wear occurs at startup, my diesel VW car should be worn out. I start it a few to maybe 8 times a day and have done so for 15 years and 230k miles. So average 4 starts a day. That is 21,900 starts. As far as I know, engine is still in good shape. Runs great, clean oil sample. So I don't buy it either. There is enough oil film keeping bearings wet for the start, it begins in boundary lube and that is fine until full hydrodynamic film gets formed. Not sure if the terms are right, it's been a long time since tribology class!!

I don't like rolling engines on starters to build oil pressure. Many pumps barely pump at all at that speed and you are just prolonging the boundary lube phase. Just start it.

Had an interesting case with prelube. This guy set it up himself and was super proud. A year later a fitting blew off his rig and alarm did not work. He toasted the Cat. I recommended he take both off while rebuilding that engine, he did. All ok afterward.
Engines repeatedly started in the same day do not have a chance to become dry of all oil. This "idea" about dry start engine wear is well-documeted. Ignoring this basic concept strikes me as wanting the facts to fit one's prejudice. Science, guys, science.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:42 PM   #85
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This "idea" about dry start engine wear is well-documeted. Ignoring this basic concept strikes me as wanting the facts to fit one's prejudice. Science, guys, science.
AGREE...

Can anyone cite a study that concludes no significant wear at start????

Lots that support the wear theory.

Is this another case of opinions stronger than facts????

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Old 11-20-2015, 05:45 PM   #86
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Also...
Yanmar recommends start w fuel stop after long sitting.

Where are all those that swear by what the mfg recommends as gospel??

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Old 11-20-2015, 06:22 PM   #87
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Not sure if this has any value....but my engine runs as cool as I am comfy with...say in the 160s at low RPMs and new one 180 at my faster cruise setting.
Same here. Sometimes wonder if my JD 4045 engine runs too cool at 170 degrees F (coolant temperature). No concerns expressed from my engine mechanic, however. Change oil once a year while averaging 125 hours annually, operating year-round, usually at least twice a month.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:58 PM   #88
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The whole discussion of dry starts is thin air until you discuss time the engine is sitting and It begs what type of oil is being used ....so you can determine if the right amount of oil film required to protect the parts still there or not.
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Old 11-20-2015, 07:15 PM   #89
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There is no residual oil film. That's the point. Dry engine, that's when the wear occurs. Seems elementary to me but it is just an opinion.
So why do no vehicle or reciprocating airplane engines incorporate this kind of "spin it before starting it" technology? You would think if "dry" starting an engine, even after a prolonged period of non use, however you define that (week? month? three months?) was truly detrimental to an engine the manufacturers would be all over it. But not a peep.

I have yet to own a vehicle-- VW, Aston Martin, Land Rover, Range Rover, BMWs, Ford pickups, Subaru, Toyota--- where the manual said to spin the engine before starting regardless of any non-use interval. Hell, it's not even possible on any of these vehicles unless you disconnect something under the hood.

None of the operating manuals for Lycoming, Continental, or Pratt & Whitney powered aircraft I fly or have flown say a word about spinning the engine over with the starter with no fuel if the engine had been sitting for awhile, and it's quite easy to do this with an airplane.

One of my co-workers has a Chevy Blazer he bought new that now has 350,000 miles on it. He has the oil changed "when he thinks of it." So far the only major work the vehicle has needed was the transmission overhaul he had done the other week. If start-up engine wear was such a major bugaboo his engine should have crapped out ages ago.

So while I don't doubt that "engine wear" is at it's greatest at initial startup, I think it's a matter of degree.

Now there very well may be some kinds of engines in which pre-lube is very important. But it sure doesn't seem to be important to the typical automotive engine. And most of the engines powering the kinds of boats most of us have are nothing more than marinzed automotive engines. So if Engine-X will go for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles in a truck with no problems without any pre-start spin-up, what changes when you stick a mariniziing kit on it and bolt it to the inside of a boat? How come now it's suddenly so important to spin it over with the starter before feeding it fuel and letting it start?

Seems to me this is another one of those solutions that's in search of a problem.
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Old 11-21-2015, 12:00 AM   #90
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Settle yourself Richard,
Most oils changes are at 500 hour intervals, all the oil that's in there has been filtered a zillion times by circulation through the filter while the engines been running. The reason for not leaving it in is chemical, it won't do it any harm to leave it in but it's preferable to change it, it can be changed cold without problems, the only reason to heat it is to make it easier to pump.
Fill it back up with good quality oil to the full mark on the dipstick, this level will go down when you start again in spring. Leave a post it note on the ignition switch to check the oil level once the engine has been run for 5 minutes in the spring.
If you need local help outside the boat yard if you go over the bridge to the marina facing you and ask any berth holders for John Dimond's phone number, he's a lovely guy, full of local knowledge and very helpful.
I know you like your Danish and you can get them freshly baked over in Lidl.
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Old 11-21-2015, 06:33 AM   #91
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Ignorance is bliss isn't it Mr. Bill.

My UK acquaintances do not think the Dorset is a "delicate little flower" (another amateur-hour absurdity) but they know damn well what its weak points are and how to avoid provoking them.

Most of these guys have forgotten more about diesel engines--- particularly that generation of engines--- than the people who profess expertise on them here will ever know. Which is why I give pretty much zero credibility on stuff that actually matters to internet forums full of self-proclaimed experts and strongly advise others to seek out information from people whose credibility they can judge for themselves, preferably in person.

Forums like this are good fun, but when anyone here says on a clear day the sky is blue, look up first before you buy into their "advice."
One "expert" you might want to discuss this with is Tony Athens on boatdiesel.com or he can be contacted directly by going to his web site: sbmar.com and getting his phone number.
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Old 11-21-2015, 06:41 AM   #92
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"Also many stationary stand by generators are run/cycled on timers, weekly/monthly spool right up to 1800 from cold"

About bout all that can be done with unattended engines.

Sure they last for decades , but the total hours till removal is minor.

The big boys on cruise ships ,where there may be a dozen generating units that need to be switched in as house and propulsion loads vary ,use plumbing that keeps the off duty engines coolant up to temperature , so they can be switched on and share the loads almost instantly.

UPS , Fed EX and the rest shut down because of idle time rules from the Air Police ,.
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Old 11-21-2015, 07:11 AM   #93
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Homework assignment

Some confusion in the thread. Long term storage, cold and warm starts are not equal. Problem is that unless you routinely dissect your engine in a lab, you will never know how much actual wear that your practices cause.

Time for a little homework:
www.bobistheoilguy.com/
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Old 11-21-2015, 10:01 AM   #94
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I have rebuilt hundreds of marine diesels, and out of all of those rarely seen a case of worn bearings. Bearings damaged from corrosion, fuel dilution, running out of oil- plenty of those. But wear? Almost never seen. Most engines that come apart the bearings are in good shape, and often go back in.

And an engine that has been sitting for months still has bearings wet with oil. They do not "dry out". Some oil always there as a film, otherwise I would not have to wipe my hands when handling the shells, and I do!! Just a thin film is needed to protect on startup, and it is there.

The engines I rebuilt were due mostly from water getting in, overheating, running out of oil, or oil diluted with fuel. High hp engines run hard have other reasons, but that does not really apply to trawlers.

Don't worry about the bearings.
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Old 11-21-2015, 10:23 AM   #95
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Just a addon.

If you run the engine to temp to warm up the oil. Be sure to pull the dip stick and test the oils temp on it. You'll find the oil temp rise lags well behind the coolants.
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Old 11-21-2015, 01:36 PM   #96
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Good point what barnicles. Most think their engine is warm w the coolant is but it's not.

Just for relative input I worked in a diesel electric powerhouse in Alaska and we pre-heated the lube oil and coolant for 24hours prior to startup. Was 300 gallons of oil and ? Coolant on the most used engine. We re-refined the lube oil on site and reclamed about 70%. Can't remember why but the engineer said the re-refined oil was more desirable/better that new oil never used. We used 30wt Delo.
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Old 11-22-2015, 06:11 PM   #97
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Yes I am an aviator, but radial engines were WAY before my time. I do remember though, that the engineer would "count the blades" as in so many rotations before the mags (ignition) were turned on. This WAS to get the oil flowing.

On turbine engines (as in today) we call rotation up to a certain rpm and oil pressure before adding fuel, but that has more to do with the fact that it otherwise would turn into a bonfire.
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Old 11-22-2015, 06:13 PM   #98
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I have rebuilt hundreds of marine diesels, and out of all of those rarely seen a case of worn bearings. Bearings damaged from corrosion, fuel dilution, running out of oil- plenty of those. But wear? Almost never seen. Most engines that come apart the bearings are in good shape, and often go back in.

And an engine that has been sitting for months still has bearings wet with oil. They do not "dry out". Some oil always there as a film, otherwise I would not have to wipe my hands when handling the shells, and I do!! Just a thin film is needed to protect on startup, and it is there.

The engines I rebuilt were due mostly from water getting in, overheating, running out of oil, or oil diluted with fuel. High hp engines run hard have other reasons, but that does not really apply to trawlers.

Don't worry about the bearings.
Good points. How about cylinder walls and valve train?
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Old 11-22-2015, 08:22 PM   #99
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Yes I am an aviator, but radial engines were WAY before my time. I do remember though, that the engineer would "count the blades" as in so many rotations before the mags (ignition) were turned on. This WAS to get the oil flowing.

On turbine engines (as in today) we call rotation up to a certain rpm and oil pressure before adding fuel, but that has more to do with the fact that it otherwise would turn into a bonfire.
I once had a World War 2 naval mechanic tell me that the reason propellers were turned by hand before the engine was started was to pump oil that had accumulated in the bottom cylinders enough of which that hydro-loc might occur and wreck an engine if it had been started without doing so. That would explain the clouds of white smoke one sees in old films. Sort of like Lehmans at start up. Fact? Don't know.
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Old 11-22-2015, 08:28 PM   #100
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I once had a World War 2 naval mechanic tell me that the reason propellers were turned by hand before the engine was started was to pump oil that had accumulated in the bottom cylinders enough of which that hydro-loc might occur and wreck an engine if it had been started without doing so. That would explain the clouds of white smoke one sees in old films. Sort of like Lehmans at start up. Fact? Don't know.
Just did some research. I had it exactly right. Oil in bottom cylinders get you hydraulic lock, a blown jug, bent crankshaft, blown out spark plug, etc.
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