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Old 11-19-2015, 11:26 AM   #61
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See my previous post.... looks like not a lot, and I love the oil change side bennie...

http://www.cpperformance.com/instructions/755-7050.pdf

That said, getting to the drain plug can be a challenge in some installs.
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:33 PM   #62
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So what is the difference in turning the engine over with the starter versus turning it over while the cylinders are firing??? You are still turning the UNoiled engine whether it is the starter or the result of combustion. I used to use this method to preheat the engine when there was no preheat available(fuel spray further cools the combustion chamber).
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:41 PM   #63
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I'm surprised that any of you "oilers" can sleep at night with all this worry.

If 90% of your engine wear occurs at startup, why are you advocating useless starts every two weeks?

I still maintain that even with the abuse that occurs and the fact that many of us are the third or fourth in a long line of POs of our boats, virtually none of us will ever wear out a diesel.
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:44 PM   #64
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If 90% of your engine wear occurs at startup, why are you advocating useless starts every two weeks?
Sorry, but this made laugh!!!! A good point! I personally use my boat enough not to worry about it.
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Old 11-19-2015, 05:39 PM   #65
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So what is the difference in turning the engine over with the starter versus turning it over while the cylinders are firing??? You are still turning the UNoiled engine whether it is the starter or the result of combustion. I used to use this method to preheat the engine when there was no preheat available(fuel spray further cools the combustion chamber).
Lots more suck squeeze bang blow before the oil gets to the sensitive pieces. Gentle turning over is a lot less wear and tear.
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:03 PM   #66
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See my previous post.... looks like not a lot, and I love the oil change side bennie...

http://www.cpperformance.com/instructions/755-7050.pdf

That said, getting to the drain plug can be a challenge in some installs.
There are other ways to pre-oil as well.

Canton Racing Products - Accusump Tech
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:08 PM   #67
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Interesting...... While we can debate the benefits of pre oiling, it certainly won't hurt.
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:15 PM   #68
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Heck if you really want to get the most out of your oil system, get a pre-oiler, add small micron bypass oil filters, use synthetic oil and only change it based on fluid analysis.

You may not change your oil for years.
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:26 PM   #69
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Heck if you really want to get the most out of your oil system, get a pre-oiler, add small micron bypass oil filters, use synthetic oil and only change it based on fluid analysis.

You may not change your oil for years.
Depending on use. Trawlers more so than sail boats. They often run for 15 minutes to get out of the hole and back in. Murder on the engine(s). Running for hours is, no doubt better.
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Old 11-19-2015, 10:36 PM   #70
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Lehmans are in a unique category in that the oil is sea water cooled. The oil temp runs WAY cooler than the desired 100C. Add to that most trawlers run at light load and that keeps oil cool also. With cool oil, moisture from combustion can build up and not cook off.

I have personally seen engines damaged from moisture buildup in oil. Corrosion on valve gear. Bearings pitted from corrosion. Oil samples showed no Na, so neither sea water nor coolant entering.

If I owned a FL or other engine with sea water oil cooling, I would change the oil before layup.

In the yard if a garden hose is available, just put the hose in the strainer and run engine til warm. Change the oil and run it a few minutes longer. Then run some antifreeze through the strainer to get some freeze protection.

Richard- If you are not going to change the oil, look in the oil fill hole in the rocker cover and note the condition of the metal rockers/shafts/springs: If shiny grey metal with a coating of dark oil, your engine does not have a moisture problem in the oil. If there is any hue of rust color, engine has moisture in the lube, or has in the past, and I would definitely change it.
Always appreciate your solid voice of experience, Ski.

Could you address how to fog a Lehman? The metal under my valve cover is shiny, but the boat's been sitting on blocks since summer and I'm wondering if I should try to "fog" the valve train. Starting my engines won't be an option for awhile, but the engines only have about 10 hours on them since the last change.
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:06 PM   #71
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Always appreciate your solid voice of experience, Ski.

Could you address how to fog a Lehman? The metal under my valve cover is shiny, but the boat's been sitting on blocks since summer and I'm wondering if I should try to "fog" the valve train. Starting my engines won't be an option for awhile, but the engines only have about 10 hours on them since the last change.
If top end metal is in good condition, no need to fog or do anything.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:22 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Baker...
So what is the difference in turning the engine over with the starter versus turning it over while the cylinders are firing??? You are still turning the UN-oiled engine whether it is the starter or the result of combustion.

Reply by Oscar...
Lots more suck squeeze bang blow before the oil gets to the sensitive pieces. Gentle turning over is a lot less wear and tear.

My annoying query...
Yes, but looking at how many revs my FL 120 needs to get the oil pressure up and the buzzer off, does it ever really get enough oil up to matter just turning it over at starter motor speed..? I very much doubt it, and I used to be an advocate of the 'turn-over-without-actually-starting' tactic.

Running it up to temp for a while every few weeks at least flushes everything else out and allows a check for leaks, belt issues, etc. Doing this one time I found raw water squirting out of a cracked (corroded) tranny oil cooler join. Turning over without starting would never have exposed that because you are at the helm, pushing the stop button, and the revs are so slow no water is really circulating with any pressure. (Like the oil, actually) When leaving the dock, especially with guests on board, one might well not spot that sort of thing because of the need often to lift floors or hatches, with landlubber mishaps then possible.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:58 AM   #73
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"If top end metal is in good condition, no need to fog or do anything."

Agreed , seldom does rust on the valves or valve seats get so bad they do not seal in use.I have seen valve springs get so rusty (Volvo) that the snapped in use.

Fogging is mostly to keep the cylinder walls from rusting and potting.

Sealing the intake and exhaust from moisture would be ideal , but is seldom done as the exhaust is a PIA.

"Running it up to temp for a while every few weeks at least flushes everything else out and allows a check for leaks, belt issues, etc. Doing this one time I found raw water squirting out of a cracked (corroded) tranny oil cooler join"

The problem is diesels idle very efficiently so bringing some of the coolant up to a gauge reading has not warmed the engine .

Operating UNDER LOAD is the only real way to get the engine and lubricants up to operating temperature.Always a great idea.

This is a far better idea than ideling in the slip, even in gear.
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Old 11-20-2015, 08:52 AM   #74
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Thanks, guys.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:03 PM   #75
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One of the deficiencies of the Lehman is it uses an oil filter without a check valve. When you shut off, almost all the oil draind back in the sump. I corrected my Lehman by up-ending the filter, mounting it like a cup so the oil wouldn't drain. The result was much quicker oil pressure on startup and much less mess when changing the filter.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:38 PM   #76
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With engines that had sat while unused, Bob Smith recommended holding down the stop button while starting for 10 seconds, stopping and waiting a minute, doing that again, waiting a minute and then starting the engine normally. He said that process was to oil the engine.


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Yes, I do that. Even if not run for a few days, I hold stop button for a minute or until I get bored, whichever comes first, usually about 10 seconds

Clearly the oil is hotter inside the engine, but when I check the temperature at the oil filter, it's consistently 155F, transmission 127, top of radiator 158, stuffing box varies.

I'm not going to worry about it anymore.
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Old 11-20-2015, 02:28 PM   #77
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One of the deficiencies of the Lehman is it uses an oil filter without a check valve. When you shut off, almost all the oil draind back in the sump. I corrected my Lehman by up-ending the filter, mounting it like a cup so the oil wouldn't drain. The result was much quicker oil pressure on startup and much less mess when changing the filter.
X-bank,
That's a good one needs to be seen agian IMO.
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Old 11-20-2015, 02:36 PM   #78
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Operating UNDER LOAD is the only real way to get the engine and lubricants up to operating temperature.Always a great idea.

This is a far better idea than ideling in the slip, even in gear.
I agree. On the advice of acquaintances in the marine diesel industry we run our engines in the slip if we haven't had a chance to actually take the boat out for four or five weeks. We run the engines one at a time to so we don't over-strain the docklines. After a brief warmup we put them in gear and take them up to 1400-1500 rpm. This gets the coolant temperature up to it's normal cruise reading and gets a decent temperature on the EGT. We hold them there for about 30 minutes and then bring them down to idle for a couple of minutes and shut them off.

As to the notion of turning an engine on the starter with the fuel shut off to distribute oil before firing the engine, I think the theory is fine but the reality is that it doesn't accomplish much or anything in terms of the longevity of the engine. If this was truly a valuable thing to do then every vehicle and reciprocating aircraft engine on the planet would incorporate some sort of mechanism to do this automatically. None do, so far as I know.

I can see where a proper pre-lube system can be valuable or even essential under some operating conditions or situations. The RNLI in the UK keeps their boats ready to go to full throttle immediately upon launch down the rails or departing the pier by circulating coolant through the engines 24/7/365 that is heated to operating temperature. However I'm not aware that they use any sort of pre-lube system prior to startup.

But spinning a normal engine under normal circumstances on the starter to build up oil pressure before starting does not seem to be an important consideration to the folks who make engines for vehicles, planes, etc. I suspect an engine will eventually deteriorate to the point of needing an overhaul for some other reason long before whatever wear that occurs during an engine start becomes a factor.
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Old 11-20-2015, 03:12 PM   #79
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I don't buy into the big time wear at start-up theory.

If that was true why would perfectly good engineers install a self draining oil filter on an engine? They wouldn't. The residual oil film is plenty of lube protection for start up.

However for some peace of mind I will crank my engine three times for 7-8 seconds w a two minute rest period when my engine hasn't been started for well over a month. Otherwise I just start-r-up. And w my glow plugs it starts almost instantly.

And again road vehicles benefit from milti-vis oil because they are exposed to cold temps. Not so on boats 99% of our trawlers never see temps below 50 degrees prior to starting. No use for MV oil.

And for those that think MV oil gives more oil flow at startup consider the fact that oil pumps are positive displacement pumps. X number of revolutions = X volume of fluid pumped. And lube oils are not compressible to my knowledge.
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Old 11-20-2015, 04:30 PM   #80
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If 90% of wear occurs at startup, my diesel VW car should be worn out. I start it a few to maybe 8 times a day and have done so for 15 years and 230k miles. So average 4 starts a day. That is 21,900 starts. As far as I know, engine is still in good shape. Runs great, clean oil sample. So I don't buy it either. There is enough oil film keeping bearings wet for the start, it begins in boundary lube and that is fine until full hydrodynamic film gets formed. Not sure if the terms are right, it's been a long time since tribology class!!

I don't like rolling engines on starters to build oil pressure. Many pumps barely pump at all at that speed and you are just prolonging the boundary lube phase. Just start it.

Had an interesting case with prelube. This guy set it up himself and was super proud. A year later a fitting blew off his rig and alarm did not work. He toasted the Cat. I recommended he take both off while rebuilding that engine, he did. All ok afterward.
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