O/B Trawler type loop boat

[South of Heaven]

Not trying to be argumentative with you Eric, you win. Maybe time to lighten up now?

Sailor: He was probably talking about me! Haha

 

[Nomad Willy]

At that moment I was.

 

[ssobol]

Some people seem to get kind of twisted up about towing capacity and it does depend on the topography in the area you tow. However, I tow my CD 22 behind a minivan. I live on the East coast where the terrain is pretty flat compared to the West coast. The minivan tows the 22 quite easily. Only on longer steep grades (e.g. PA mountains) does the speed decay a bit, but I just get in the hill climb lane with the semi's. There was a C-Dory owner who did tow a CD22 all over the western states and western Canada with a minivan.

The CD25 is larger and significantly heavier than a 22 and therefore less portable. If I were to upgrade to a CD25 I would also need a different tow vehicle.

 

[Nomad Willy]

ssobol,
So how big was your “minivan”?
Most all minivans now aren’t mini at all. How much hp?

 

[sunchaser]

A 3/4 ton pickup will pull a 10,000 lb boat with ease over Western US mountain passes. 70 mph on the freeways no problem. Drive the rig onto the Alaska State Ferry in Bellingham and all of Alaska is now available without those arduous ocean passages.

Or visit the big BC interior lakes like Atlin or more touristy Shuswap. The Great Loop problem areas can be avoided. There are so many options with websites and clubs galore detailing this lifestyle.

This opens the door for say an outboard powered Ranger Tug 30, Osprey, Cape Dory or similar. Keeping the tank levels low and weighty gear in the pickup helps towing comfort. While traveling the boat is like an RV for sleeping and campground stuff.

There are options in the recreational boating world.

 

[smitty477]

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this but......

I'd say go for the 25 footer. The greater size and amenities will make the adjustment from your 34 footer a little easier, and no one has ever regretted having more boat when they are in it.

I think exceeding tow capacity of your SUV can be done safely. Remember that tow rating applies to people towing in Arizona when its 110 degrees and people in Denver who are a mile high and always going up or down a hill.

The ride to your ramp from your condo will probably be short, flat and not involve highway driving. Drive conservatively, don't speed or tailgate and you'll be fine. To me it makes sense to be a little uncomfortable on the 20 minute ride to the ramp and more comfortable on the 8 hour day on the water rather than the other way around. And, if you want to do a long tow once in a while, you can rent a truck from Uhaul or Enterprise.

I used to tow a 3000 lb trailer without trailer brakes on a little SUV with a tow capacity of 1500 lbs. Other than needing a lot of space to pull onto the highway, I never had any trouble.

Whatever you do I would not suggest exceeding the rated tow capacity of the car/truck. Please do not exceed the tow capacity of the trailer in use either. Having your tow rig under rated capacity and insured up to the requirements for your state as well as following the local towing regulations is a minimum.
If you plan to travel outside your home state a review of those state rules and regulations is well worth the time as is a call to your insurance company.

 

[Scratchnsaw]

Some people seem to get kind of twisted up about towing capacity and it does depend on the topography in the area you tow. However, I tow my CD 22 behind a minivan. I live on the East coast where the terrain is pretty flat compared to the West coast. The minivan tows the 22 quite easily. Only on longer steep grades (e.g. PA mountains) does the speed decay a bit, but I just get in the hill climb lane with the semi's. There was a C-Dory owner who did tow a CD22 all over the western states and western Canada with a minivan.

The CD25 is larger and significantly heavier than a 22 and therefore less portable. If I were to upgrade to a CD25 I would also need a different tow vehicle.

One advantage with the sea dory boats is the lack of vertical height when comparing it to the Roseborough hulls, weight not withstanding. So this does change the conditions when towing with certain vehicles. But for my personal use, as we actually considered the Sea dory was that they were a bit too low to the water for our likes and desires. We felt like were in a hole when we went in the cabin. So we went back to the custom route and gave up tons of weight from the production fiberglass hulls.

 

[smitty477]

One advantage with the sea dory boats is the lack of vertical height when comparing it to the Roseborough hulls, weight not withstanding. So this does change the conditions when towing with certain vehicles. But for my personal use, as we actually considered the Sea dory was that they were a bit too low to the water for our likes and desires. We felt like were in a hole when we went in the cabin. So we went back to the custom route and gave up tons of weight from the production fiberglass hulls.

Yes - vertical height on the trailer is important for us , thank you for the reminder.

 

[cardude01]

I would add that it depends on what kind of boat ramp you will be using. If it’s a steep ramp you will need a more robust tow vehicle, or four wheel drive. I know my 2WD Chevy Tahoe is rated for 8000 LBs towing capacity, but I also know that it would spin on a steep, wet boat ramp.

 

[JLD]

When towing, one needs to remember payload capacity of the tow vehicle as well. Payload capacity includes all the crap that one puts into the tow vehicle as well as the tongue weight of the trailer (with load). Many times one runs out of payload capacity before they max out the towing capacity. Also, don't rely on the sales brochures for towing and payload capacity. Most manufacturers have charts available on-line, for various makes (1/2, 3/4, 1 ton), styles (regular, club, crew cab), engine/tranny combinations, and other options. The definitive numbers, of course, are those on the door tag on any specific vehicle.

Jim

edited the beginning of the second line to correct "Tow" to "Payload"

Jim

 

[JLD]

I would never encourage someone to exceed the towing capacity of their tow vehicle!

It isn't just a matter of pulling the trailer, it also is a matter of stopping it, and controlling it at speed.

Sometimes folks modify their vehicles (usually trucks) by adding air bags, beefier springs, larger brakes, auxiliary radiator, etc., to their tow vehicle. These can definitely help, but the safer and LEGAL way to do it is to have an acceptable vehicle to start with.

A lot of folks buy trailerable boats because it opens up new cruising grounds, be it across the county, state, or country. Nothing better than driving a properly equipped truck when there is some distance involved.

p.s. Personally, I think the C-Dory 22 is a heck of a boat for the money. It remains on my short list of smaller, towable boats.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Smitty477,
The tow weight issue isn’t black and white.
My Avalon sedan has a tow rating of 1000lbs. My wife’s Golf is rated at 1450lbs. The Avalon has 260hp and a fairly long wheelbase. So I thought the 1k limit was ridiculous. I may have figured it out though. The Avolon has 61% of its weight on the front wheels. With one or two people it’s more. And many people tow w very little tongue weight on sedans. With so many lawyers out there Toyota is propably covering their tail.

So If you really know what you’re doing limits can frequently be extended. However if you get into an accident and a lawyer finds out you were towing over rated capacity you could pay dearly.

Re cabin height that’s one thing that I admire re the SeaDory. A low CG and good weight distribution is very important I think. Many small boats have windage and cabin heights that are excessive. Some are almost ridiculous. As a cruiser the SeaDory’s only real problem is flat bottom and resulting rough ride when the water gets choppy. With a low CG they should be quite seaworthy though. One member has a lot of input on that I’m sure w extensive Alaska cruising experience.

 

[smitty477]

Smitty477,
The tow weight issue isn’t black and white.
My Avalon sedan has a tow rating of 1000lbs. My wife’s Golf is rated at 1450lbs. The Avalon has 260hp and a fairly long wheelbase. So I thought the 1k limit was ridiculous. I may have figured it out though. The Avolon has 61% of its weight on the front wheels. With one or two people it’s more. And many people tow w very little tongue weight on sedans. With so many lawyers out there Toyota is propably covering their tail.

So If you really know what you’re doing limits can frequently be extended. However if you get into an accident and a lawyer finds out you could pay dearly.

Re cabin height that’s one thing that I admire re the SeaDory. A low CG and good weight distribution is very important I think. Many small boats have windage and cabin heights that are excessive. Some are almost ridiculous. As a cruiser the SeaDory’s only real problem is flat bottom and resulting rough ride when the water gets choppy. With a low CG they should be quite seaworthy though. One member has a lot of input on that I’m sure w extensive Alaska cruising experience.

"So If you really know what you’re doing limits can frequently be extended. However if you get into an accident and a lawyer finds out you could pay dearly."

Your thoughts seem to be that exceeding vehicle and legal limits are not such a large issue. I cannot disagree more and would never suggest that practice to anyone I know.

 

[RCook]

Some people seem to get kind of twisted up about towing capacity and it does depend on the topography in the area you tow. However, I tow my CD 22 behind a minivan. I live on the East coast where the terrain is pretty flat compared to the West coast. The minivan tows the 22 quite easily. Only on longer steep grades (e.g. PA mountains) does the speed decay a bit, but I just get in the hill climb lane with the semi's. There was a C-Dory owner who did tow a CD22 all over the western states and western Canada with a minivan.

Sounds like our experience. Towed our CD22 all over the West with an 89 Pathfinder SE, maybe 145 hp? Tow rating was 3500 lb, IIRC. Manual transmission and choice of the upgraded "off road" suspension made it possible. Worked very well, with plenty of control of the trailer. We geared down on the big hills, of course.

The CD22 being our first boat, we didn't mind it being low to the water - liked it, actually. Seaworthy? Absolutely. Only disadvantage was pounding on the chop as Eric said. It was great in big waves, which we had a good dose of during a summer in SE Alaska.

 

[RCook]

A 3/4 ton pickup will pull a 10,000 lb boat with ease over Western US mountain passes. 70 mph on the freeways no problem. Drive the rig onto the Alaska State Ferry in Bellingham and all of Alaska is now available without those arduous ocean passages.

Or visit the big BC interior lakes like Atlin or more touristy Shuswap. The Great Loop problem areas can be avoided. There are so many options with websites and clubs galore detailing this lifestyle.

This opens the door for say an outboard powered Ranger Tug 30, Osprey, Cape Dory or similar. Keeping the tank levels low and weighty gear in the pickup helps towing comfort. While traveling the boat is like an RV for sleeping and campground stuff.

There are options in the recreational boating world.

Our experience too. In fact, out 26-footer weighs nearly 12,000 on the trailer. Some 70,000 miles so far on roads all over the West, it tows perfectly with 98 Ram 2500 diesel pickup. Tow rated only 10,000, but later years of the same truck with more hp rated 16,000. The additional hp is clearly not necessary - we use gears to handle the really big hills. Upgraded "camper package" suspension (stronger rear springs), better aftermarket shocks, and manual transmission made it work well.

 

[Scratchnsaw]

Smitty477,
The tow weight issue isn’t black and white.
My Avalon sedan has a tow rating of 1000lbs. My wife’s Golf is rated at 1450lbs. The Avalon has 260hp and a fairly long wheelbase. So I thought the 1k limit was ridiculous. I may have figured it out though. The Avolon has 61% of its weight on the front wheels. With one or two people it’s more. And many people tow w very little tongue weight on sedans. With so many lawyers out there Toyota is propably covering their tail.

So If you really know what you’re doing limits can frequently be extended. However if you get into an accident and a lawyer finds out you were towing over rated capacity you could pay dearly.

Re cabin height that’s one thing that I admire re the SeaDory. A low CG and good weight distribution is very important I think. Many small boats have windage and cabin heights that are excessive. Some are almost ridiculous. As a cruiser the SeaDory’s only real problem is flat bottom and resulting rough ride when the water gets choppy. With a low CG they should be quite seaworthy though. One member has a lot of input on that I’m sure w extensive Alaska cruising experience.

Everything is a trade off. I know a fellow that built a flat bottom dory and did some serious ocean running with it. There is a webpage on that and I will see if I can find it on this cold and blustery day.
With the shallow draft boat you give you a lot of storage below decks, if you plan on using your boat for any extended cruising. But with the added weight below decks when loaded, this offset some of the windage when your hull is higher on the water. Below deck water and fuel tanks makes the boat more stable sideways.

But along the lines of the shallow draft and the higher freeboard, the overhead height on the inside of the cabin dictates how low your overall hull can be unless you like stooping over most of the time.

But when running in limited visibility like rain and some misty rain,and or in the evening, the sunken cabin restricts some of the visibility inside.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Scratch,
My take on it is one dosn’t stand very often in a small boat anyway so having to lower your head a bit while moving around isn’t a problem. One sits most often.
High windage and/or high CG is a problem.

With a shallow draft boat one would have little or no storage belowdecks I would think. And if you’re buying or building for full headroom having storage belowdecks also really gets the cabin top up there.

 

[Scratchnsaw]

Scratch,
My take on it is one dosn’t stand very often in a small boat anyway so having to lower your head a bit while moving around isn’t a problem. One sits most often.
High windage and/or high CG is a problem.

With a shallow draft boat one would have little or no storage belowdecks I would think. And if you’re buying or building for full headroom having storage belowdecks also really gets the cabin top up there.

Have you or your lady friend ever cooked in the hunchback position? And with boats under 30 feet, the majority of your cruising will never deal with being blown around in open water or needing stabilizers to minimize the roll.

Remember retirement or doing long journeys in a true Pleasure craft is not really about being uncomfortable or being restricted. If I want to be in a partial fetal position I will take a ride in the cattle car sections on the current airplanes. to my destination.

 

[caltexflanc]

I'm a C-Dory/TomKat fan too , even more-so the Rosborough. However as we are alos in the market for a "camping boat" I have added to the list the "walkaround" style boats from the likes of Grady White, Scout, Cobia, Pursuit, Parker etc etc. Very similar creature comforts and in someways better ergonomics. You trade some cabin space for more outdoor living space. Being in a temperate climate, we see that as a plus. Not "trawlerly" looking but a proven design from many proven brands.

Another concept is to look into using a "dry stack" marina rather than finding a place to store the boat (many condos don't allow that, especially a big boat) and going through the rigamarole of launching and retrieving. We use one here in Morehead City for our skiff and it's well worth the cost in our personal opinions.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Having grown up with outboards and ski boats, I would love to do the Loop in an outboard powered small 'trawler' type boat. But alas, the Admiral wants creature comforts, and we have many, many close friends and family that will be joining us for parts / all of the Loop. So I need at least two nice staterooms and heads - so looking at 40-44' sundeck models. We have been on a friends Defever 44 and my wife loves the covered sundeck area - ok, me too Plan to start the Loop late fall '19 from Columbus, MS, on the Ten-Tom, and leave the boat in south FL over the winter and pick up late Mar and head north. Will keep TF informed on the progress.

 

[ssobol]

ssobol,
So how big was your “minivan”?
Most all minivans now aren’t mini at all. How much hp?

Mine is a Toyota Sienna with a tow package. It is a V6, 215hp, 6 speed auto transmission. The van is big enough to lay a 4x8' sheet of anything flat on the floor of the back.

Trailer is aluminum and has brakes.

The van is FWD. One advantage to this is that the drive wheels are usually on the less slippery part of the ramp.

A disadvantage is the van body is lower than the typical truck body. This can limit how far down you can get the boat into the water on shallow angle ramps. However, the C-Dory 22 is fairly light, and the flatter bottom lets it float on/off the trailer in relatively little water.

Since you are standing on the bottom of the boat, there is a lot more headroom inside than might appear when looking at the boat from the outside. I'm 5'11" and there is plenty of head room to stand up straight. The C-Dory also comes in a high top version with even more headroom.

With the front hatches and windows closed, you can take a wave over the front of the boat with no problem.

Because the C-Dory is smaller and the cockpit floor is at the bottom of the boat, there can be some issues with boarding from high fixed docks. However, you can board the boat by stepping on the side, the bow, or even the cabin roof.

Being light and flat bottomed can make docking in a wind more difficult. The C-Dory bow tends to go swing downwind when power is off. So when docking in a crosswind you need to be prepared and ready to act when approaching the dock.

With the C-Dory 22 there is surprising amount of room for storage on a relatively small boat. There is space in the large cabinet under the stove and sink, under the helm seat (without the fridge installed), under boat dinette seats, under the dinette floor, and under the v-berth. There are also two lazarettes on the stern (one often has the ship batteries in it though). Since the power is O/B there is no big engine located in the passenger areas.

My wife is the one who decided we had to have a C-Dory boat and she is quite happy with it.

 

[Benthic2]

.....Your thoughts seem to be that exceeding vehicle and legal limits are not such a large issue. I cannot disagree more and would never suggest that practice to anyone I know.

But wouldn't you agree that a universal limit for everyone in all conditions is impractical or unrealistic ? The same vehicle can tow more in Florida ( no hills ) than in San Francisco or Denver ( all hills ) Tow ratings don't come with topography exceptions, temperature ratings, or even wind resistance considerations. If you can tow 5000 pounds at the speed limit, doesn't it seem logical that you could tow a little more at 5 mph below the speed limit ?

Tow limits can be set by a number of factors, but those factors can also be compensated for. Perhaps your transmission will overheat. But ratings never specify a time or temperature limit, so if you can reasonably expect to tow a trailer for a 10 hour drive in the Arizona Desert without over heating, you can probably go 10 miles accross town without a problem.

Perhaps the weight is an issue for handling.....so you don't take offramps at 60 mph with your boat behind you....

Perhaps the braking capacity is the limiting factor...so you slow down a little, don't tailgate, avoid rush hour,etc.

Perhaps acceleration is the issue....so you adjust accordingly, just like you do if you are driving in bad conditions. With an inch of snow on the road you can't accelerate as well either.....

Perhaps wear and tear on the car is the issue.....so you expect to replace your brakes and shocks a little more often. That might be preferable to having to buy a new tow vehicle, but again, remember that tow limits don't come with qualifiers....so if you can tow a certain amount for 8 hours per day, every day.....you can probably tow a little more on the occaisional weekend trek to the local boat ramp.

Also, who are the limits set for ? Does Ford give you a limit so they don't have to do more warranty work on your car, or because they're worried about your safety ? ( anyone remember the Ford Pinto ?? )

When you think about all the variables involved in determining what is "safe" and what is not.......there is no way that any parameter can be reduced to a single number that applies to all situations.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Have you or your lady friend ever cooked in the hunchback position? And with boats under 30 feet, the majority of your cruising will never deal with being blown around in open water or needing stabilizers to minimize the roll.

Remember retirement or doing long journeys in a true Pleasure craft is not really about being uncomfortable or being restricted. If I want to be in a partial fetal position I will take a ride in the cattle car sections on the current airplanes. to my destination.

Scratch,
Read you loud and clear. Cooking would be a problem. Tending the helm would be definitely better being able to move around gracefully. Yea I did post w/o much thought.
Wonder if the cattle car sections would be half price?

 

[ssobol]

Another thing to add to the list is the condition of the tow vehicle's tires.

I would be quite interested to know what tests are done by the vehicle manufacturer to determine a vehicle's tow capacity.

I would hope that there are some objective handling, performance, and wear tests that are done to determine the tow limit rather than some engineer's WAG. My guess is that a particular vehicle's tow limit is more of the latter.

I would expect that the tow limit of any vehicle on any given day is more a condition of the vehicle and trailer and the vehicle operator's skill and comfort level. A well maintained vehicle and trailer can tow a lot more than ones in poor condition even if the load is less than the tow limit. I don't really think twice about towing my boat. My wife would never even consider doing it.

However, if you exceed the tow limit or the maximum vehicle gross weight and something bad happens, you can expect some lawyer to leverage that against you if for nothing else than to limit the payout of your insurance company.

 

[Scratchnsaw]

Towing with some of the mini vans and any front wheel drive vehicle create some issues depending on the tongue weight of your trailer. Then pulling the boat out of the water will also leave you with little grip.

 

[smitty477]

But wouldn't you agree that a universal limit for everyone in all conditions is impractical or unrealistic ? The same vehicle can tow more in Florida ( no hills ) than in San Francisco or Denver ( all hills ) Tow ratings don't come with topography exceptions, temperature ratings, or even wind resistance considerations. If you can tow 5000 pounds at the speed limit, doesn't it seem logical that you could tow a little more at 5 mph below the speed limit ?

Tow limits can be set by a number of factors, but those factors can also be compensated for. Perhaps your transmission will overheat. But ratings never specify a time or temperature limit, so if you can reasonably expect to tow a trailer for a 10 hour drive in the Arizona Desert without over heating, you can probably go 10 miles accross town without a problem.

Perhaps the weight is an issue for handling.....so you don't take offramps at 60 mph with your boat behind you....

Perhaps the braking capacity is the limiting factor...so you slow down a little, don't tailgate, avoid rush hour,etc.

Perhaps acceleration is the issue....so you adjust accordingly, just like you do if you are driving in bad conditions. With an inch of snow on the road you can't accelerate as well either.....

Perhaps wear and tear on the car is the issue.....so you expect to replace your brakes and shocks a little more often. That might be preferable to having to buy a new tow vehicle, but again, remember that tow limits don't come with qualifiers....so if you can tow a certain amount for 8 hours per day, every day.....you can probably tow a little more on the occaisional weekend trek to the local boat ramp.

Also, who are the limits set for ? Does Ford give you a limit so they don't have to do more warranty work on your car, or because they're worried about your safety ? ( anyone remember the Ford Pinto ?? )

When you think about all the variables involved in determining what is "safe" and what is not.......there is no way that any parameter can be reduced to a single number that applies to all situations.

Ratings are set by the manufacturers of the vehicles that way the liability stays with the one that produces and is responsible for the ratings - they consider all aspects of their usage.
In the unfortunate situation where someone may have an accident any property or personal damage would fall to the insurance or they can subrogate to the manufacturer. As long as an owner/user of the vehicles involved have taken reasonable precautions by following the recommended limits they will be covered. In situations where the owner/user is not seen utilizing the vehicle in a reasonable manner they will find themselves in a problematic position.
Is it really worth it to cut short the manufacturers limits to save some bucks where it can adversely affect both the user and others who were just around for the mistake?

 

[ssobol]

I would think you could have an interesting court case where a vehicle manufacturer had to justify the tow limit on a vehicle (no matter which side of the line you are on). If you where at fault and over the limit you might want to have them show how they got the limit and how it applies in the particular instance in question. On the other hand, if you were the plaintiff in this case, you might want the manufacturer to prove that the limit was actually valid in the particular instance.

However, if you took on a big auto manufacturer on this issue, you better have very deep pockets.

 

[DavidM]

Smitty and ssobol:

You guys sound like lawyers contemplating legal action as a result of a towing accident. It also sounds like you have a client with deep pockets- and more money than sense.

This is a boating forum, right?

David

 

[ssobol]

No, I'm just someone who likes to explore all sides of an idea.

Also, in my line of work, if you do something you better have fairly extensive data to support it.

 

[smitty477]

Smitty and ssobol:

You guys sound like lawyers contemplating legal action as a result of a towing accident. It also sounds like you have a client with deep pockets- and more money than sense.

This is a boating forum, right?

David

No lawyer at all , not even close. But I am familiar with two situations where an acquaintance was operating a two over the limit and had accidents. They were both real 'lucky' that there was minimal personal injury but learned about the costs involved in ignoring standards. Not nearly like 20 years back when we were towing at a legal limit and were rear ended while stopped at a red light and learned how 'lucky' we were that we were legally towing.