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Old 06-16-2016, 06:08 PM   #81
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What are they expecting to find out?.
They may say that the ship was in no condition to go into that storm.
They may say that the equipment was not sufficient to go into that storm.
They may say, that the captain was pressure to go into that storm, but, at the end, "wrong turn" based on wrong information will the the primary factor. That where they should start and end. Put the past behind and let those poor souls rest in peace. Does any one think that a new ship with proper safety equipment will stand a chance with that weather force. Good luck with that one.
I understand what you are saying, but NTSB investigations look beyond just faulty equipment, maintenance failures, or bad decisions. They do a very good job at looking at the entire system to see where the problems lie. Sometimes that is just problems in communication or decision chains. I get that not everyone agrees with the expense involved, but I think it is worth it.
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Old 06-16-2016, 06:22 PM   #82
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NTSB renews El Faro VDR search

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Originally Posted by nodestination View Post
What are they expecting to find out?.
They may say that the ship was in no condition to go into that storm.
They may say that the equipment was not sufficient to go into that storm.
They may say, that the captain was pressure to go into that storm, but, at the end, "wrong turn" based on wrong information will the the primary factor. That where they should start and end. Put the past behind and let those poor souls rest in peace. Does any one think that a new ship with proper safety equipment will stand a chance with that weather force. Good luck with that one.

Why are you so afraid of spending some money and doing a proper investigation? You act like the money is coming straight out of your personal retirement account or something.

Think about the families of the folks who died. Don't you think they might want answers? Have a little compassion for crying out loud.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:00 PM   #83
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Do me a favor, look at what regulations came from the Titanic, Morro Castle, Torrey Canyon, Marine Electric, Herald of Free Enterprise, and other maritime incidents. Don't tell me nothing can come from this. I hear the BS about if it saves 1 life when it comes to other things, so what about the men and women who are gone for months at a time so you can get your 65 inch flat screen from China?
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:08 PM   #84
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Why are you so afraid of spending some money and doing a proper investigation? You act like the money is coming straight out of your personal retirement account or something.

Think about the families of the folks who died. Don't you think they might want answers? Have a little compassion for crying out loud.
Nothing wrong with an investigation if there are expected safety payoffs that would justify the very large public expenditure. In this case the big hitter causal factors are plain as day. Cost versus benefits need to make sense. Many of us don't believe they do. NTSB doesn't give a rat's behind as it doesn't come out of their budget. And having worked with them at the top level, I know they are politically driven in a case like this.

I watched the family representatives very carefully on the 60 minute rehash last weekend. They know what happened. The Captain stated he was going to run along the edge of the predicted path of the storm. The hurricane didn't follow the path. The engine failed. The ship went down in a raging storm. One guy said the storm killed his son, the propulsion engineer, and he's satisfied with that conclusion. One wanted covered life boats. OK, if you want real safety I'll up it a couple notches...I demand twin propulsion units for all vessels including pleasure craft (not really)...this wouldn't have happened with a back up power plant. And by golly, I want a full investigation of the two pleasure boat sinking incidents on Lake Erie in May (not really). Where's the safety concern around those incidents?


Safety has a price...just like this misguided political/press motivated investigation. I do not understand what folks think could be on those tapes that would require safety rulemaking. Use your imagination and tell me. I fully understand that there were many procedural issues leading up to the accident....but learning exactly what happened after the storm whacked the ship won't yield anything...an old, virtually one of a kind power plant, old ship. What, you want to hear the crew fighting for their lives? Want to watch them drown in the movie portrayal? You think the families want to hear that?
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:29 PM   #85
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Sure, they got run over by a hurricane...sounds bad for a few people involved...but I would love to know why......
The NTSB does know why. The Captain stated he would take a route to get the ship around the projected path of the storm, and he took that path. The storm took a path different from the prediction (Edmund Fitzgerald scenario). The engine failed. The storm killed them.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:31 PM   #86
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Let's see he cost benefit analysis...


Lets just see the additional costs above normal operations for all those involved.


Till then ....we are all shooting in the dark behind our keyboards.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:34 PM   #87
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The NTSB does know why. The Captain stated he would take a route to get the ship around the projected path of the storm, and he took that path. The storm took a path different from the prediction (Edmund Fitzgerald scenario). The engine failed. The storm killed them.
So YOU say...

There are many causal factors in an accident...lets wait and see which ones are determined by people involved in the investigation think are the most important...I am willing to wait and have some tax dollars spent to find out...not sure where most people think otherwise...
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:01 PM   #88
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Let's see he cost benefit analysis...


Lets just see the additional costs above normal operations for all those involved.

You will never see those numbers. Buried in what many of you would call fraud waste and abuse under other circumstances.

Look, I'm a huge safety proponent. Early career in Navy and Coast Guard flying SAR, later career with FAA in aircraft certification, which encompasses accident investigation...a lifetime in the business. I've seen it from top to bottom, and I know how it works...and doesn't work. Somebody has to call time out in some cases. Unfortunately, when an incident reaches "Sixty Minutes" there's not a politician or watchdog anywhere that's going to step in and say this is stupid. So be it. But my 40 years in the safety field says this is pointless. We know what we need to know to make the right safety calls. The rest benefits the script writers, and maybe the families from that aspect....and of course the arm chair safety pundits on sites like this one. Far more people killed in recreational boating accidents...where's the outrage...where's the demand for more stringent safety regulations and oversight. Laughable. Want to save lives? Regulate the trucking industry that kills hundreds maybe thousands every year.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:08 PM   #89
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So YOU say...
No, so say dozens of news releases.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:15 PM   #90
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I don't give a damn how much it costs, I want to know how much pressure TOTE put on the captain to sail. Had he not sailed, he would have been fired, without a doubt. Mariners are on an island, all alone, and have nobody to back them up. I hope this changes that, and something the captain said on the bridge during that 12 hours brings more to the light. Just about every professional mariner knows what happened and now we want it to come to light!
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Old 06-17-2016, 05:37 AM   #91
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Want to blame some one - blame the guy who give that captain wrong information's.

How do you know the captain was given wrong information?

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Old 06-17-2016, 05:59 AM   #92
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I'll hit just 3 points.


1. You'll never see the cost numbers because there aren't any...many involved are getting paychecks and boats funded for repair and fuel whether they sit at the dock or do this investigation...numbers that the public get are spun both ways.


2. I too flew SAR for 20 years with the USCG...we assisted with stuff like this all the time...not one cent more was being spent than what was already in the budget. My last job in the USCG was Head of USCG Aviation Safety....so I rubbed a few elbows with the people who make this kind of stuff happen. You are correct in that you could sit back and "guess" this whole thing through. I think there's more to learn and the money being spent is a spitball compared to many things.


3. So you use news releases to help in your solving an accident investigation? Even if they are quotes from the NTSB or other experts...not sure I remember one that in just a few words declared the hurricane the guilty party.
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Old 06-17-2016, 06:18 AM   #93
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How do you know the captain was given wrong information?

-Chris
Do you really believe that the captain deliberately took that ship into path of that storm?. No job is worth a life and he knew that. Accusing that captain of risking life of his crew - under pressure from that company - is sick.
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Old 06-17-2016, 06:35 AM   #94
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Do you really believe that the captain deliberately took that ship into path of that storm?. No job is worth a life and he knew that. Accusing that captain of risking life of his crew - under pressure from that company - is sick.
I am no merchant mariner so I will let them chime in to confirm...

But I believe I read in some testimony from some in the releases so far that it IS common for a ship the size of the El Faro to plot courses near areas of Cat 1 hurricanes...obviously not aiming for them but not going too far out of the way to miss them either. I believe on high ranking operator said the El Faro rode storms like a Cadillac.

So no, I don't think he had a collision course in mind...but with all accidents, there more to the story.
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Old 06-17-2016, 06:38 AM   #95
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Greetings,
Mr. n. Re-read post #90 until you actually understand what Mr. SD86 is saying. Not unlike a LOT of jobs I'm aware of. What the boss says, the boss gets. If not from you, from your replacement.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:18 AM   #96
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Greetings,
Mr. n. Re-read post #90 until you actually understand what Mr. SD86 is saying. Not unlike a LOT of jobs I'm aware of. What the boss says, the boss gets. If not from you, from your replacement.
Thanks RTF....I know...in fact that's why I want the recorder for possible voice pickup....pretty much said that from the beginning of the "too much money crowd" posts.

I have been in enough scary situations where people often question why they were sent out facing what they are now...and for what good reason....

So yes, one tiny mouthful of voice data could open up a can of worms and maybe get significant things changed in the business.

But maybe not...but until we know one way or another...both in recovering a box where the battery was possibly never replaced (that there should start an uproar)...to an "oh, ho hum" attitude from the board/government officiasl in general....it COULD be a waste of time...but we just don't know.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:36 AM   #97
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To me, all the back and forth about what is known and what isn't is a powerful reason to have an investigation that can answer the remaining unknowns and synthesize the data. All the BS from armchair critics about wasted money--from budgets established for these exact purposes--is more about political ideology than any desire to learn the truth. We know that the Confederate submarine Hunley went to the bottom after it sank the Housatonic. Until they salvaged the wreck in 2000, that was all we knew. Historians could only guess at the probable causes. We can do better than that in the 21st century and we owe it to the mariners who put their lives at risk--and their families--to do the best we can.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:32 AM   #98
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The NTSB knows the Captain plotted a course to skirt the projected track of the hurricane. The NTSB knows the hurricane changed course and caught the ship. The NTSB knows the ship lost power. The fact that they haven't made a statement means nothing....they rarely do before their final report. The decision was initially made to NOT launch an expensive search for the black boxes. Then they changed their mind. Why? Politics, news media, and pressure to find someone to blame. Let's say the Captain says on the voice recorder that he was forced/pressured to make this voyage (he wouldn't if he was the stuff Captains are made of). But suppose he did...so what? Does anyone believe that the question of pressure to sail from the company isn't already under review? If it's a culture within TOTE to hire Captains without a spine, that will come out regardless. That said, I cannot believe this man was of that sort of character. Those of you hoping to hear him whine that the company put him in this position are pissing in the wind looking for someone to blame. And by the way, things said under extreme duress will be ripped apart in court anyway. This was a stand up guy by all accounts. He wouldn't have risked his crew because of "pressure" to sail from the company. I refuse to believe that premise. It's sick.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:21 AM   #99
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Do you really believe that the captain deliberately took that ship into path of that storm?. No job is worth a life and he knew that. Accusing that captain of risking life of his crew - under pressure from that company - is sick.

Must be nice to be a 'ex' truck driver and be knowledgable about how the Captain runs a ship, how all the info needed is 'just given'. And how the condition of the ship is irrelevant. Especially how the company pressures the captain to 'go' or he will be replaced. How long did you spend at sea to be so knowledgable of things seafaring???? You sound like a cook running the ship from the galley.

Fwiw, IMHO the NTSB report will likely center around hull age, maintenance and improper oversight (inspection) from class societies. But who am I? Nobody.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:21 AM   #100
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Cappy...I too think that all those things played a major role.

But my experience also includes that sometimes it is some thing small that triggers the waterfall of events that leads to something like this.

I thought I read that the there was a major discrepancy with the loading of the containers. That the computer data on loading was different that some testimonials.

Other things like what the crew did or didn't do that the recorder may show could have been that tiny act or omission to start things coming completely apart.

One thing about a good investigation...it leaves no stone unturned if possible...we'll see where this one winds up sooner or later...and it will be interesting to see if it has been corrupted in any way....
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