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Old 05-19-2016, 03:02 PM   #61
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Maybe that could be a change, to require a full VDR, not a simplified one.

It will be interesting when the NTSB completes their review, which will probably be this fall.
The referenced NTSB document says the El Faro had the simplified version as retrofitted to older ships.
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Old 05-19-2016, 06:14 PM   #62
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Never know what could have been said on the bridge for 12 hours.

There COULD be something important....we will only know with the recorder as there are no eye witnesses.

One piece of a puzzle sometimes allows either an accurate hypothesis...or actually figure out what happened.
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Old 05-19-2016, 06:18 PM   #63
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Never know what could have been said on the bridge for 12 hours.

There COULD be something important....we will only know with the recorder as there are no eye witnesses.

One piece of a puzzle sometimes allows either an accurate hypothesis...or actually figure out what happened.
Some of the best information comes when you don't know what you're looking for.
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Old 05-19-2016, 07:09 PM   #64
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Was the head of accident investigations for USCG aviation for two years.....the biggest advance we made while I was there was pushing for voice recorders over just data recorders...sometimes one word made a difference...especially how expressed.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:03 PM   #65
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Was the head of accident investigations for USCG aviation for two years.....the biggest advance we made while I was there was pushing for voice recorders over just data recorders...sometimes one word made a difference...especially how expressed.
The Captain's change in voice over the course of the phone calls sure showed a lot of the deterioration of their situation. Who knows who was heard yelling what on a recorder.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:07 PM   #66
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I would think that is exactly why it is important to the investigation....while many scenarios can theoretically be debated.....and true many may not change shipping in general...it might.

Hopefully someone has done the cost analysis of going a fter the recorder better that we can with little direct info.

Amazingly enough...sometimes the government actually is a good steward of tax dolkars.
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:10 PM   #67
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Cost /benefits are abandoned when these cases enter the realm of politics and hype. This effort was stopped and relaunched. Some politico is applying pressure. That's how high profile incidents work. I worked side by side with NTSB at many levels for decades....from field accident investigations to headquarters level management. They are decidedly political and don't give a rip about cost/benefits when some politician gets on their case. On the aviation side, their technical staff are often inexperienced generalists and must rely on FAA and company engineers during investigations. They're front guys/women....the "suit" in front of the camera. They have a place, but they have a penchant for making off the wall, politically motivated recommendations that are NOT anchored in safety.
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Old 05-20-2016, 05:35 AM   #68
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Well thankfully in my position I wasn't political and didnt sway...probably helped an early end to my career.

But I would still go after the recorder based on no eyewitness accounts, unless I already knew something not being released yet or the recovery was all commercial and not NAVY or government equipment/personnel for the majority of it.
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Old 06-14-2016, 06:41 PM   #69
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The next step and how they intend to go about it.
NTSB News Release: 6-6-16 – El Faro Incident Site
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Old 06-16-2016, 06:03 AM   #70
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What a waste time and money. The captain decision to go into that storm was base on weather information provided to him. There are 2 weather "models" -US and EU. While the EU shows - at that time - the storm on his way, the US "model" provided him with false information. Looking to blame someone - blame the weather providers.
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Old 06-16-2016, 02:35 PM   #71
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Just curious, how many people here sail commercially? I mean an actual sailor in the US Merchant Marine?

A waist of time and money?! ARE YOU KIDDING!?! 33 people died out there! Yes, there should be a full investigation. Investigate the USCG, ABS and TOTE. It's easy to sit in your lazy boy and say "Oh, I would have said/done...." because the hardest decision you have to make all day is "do I want large fries or regular size?"

When your job is threatened and the models show nothing definitive, it's hard to say no, I'm not sailing. Maybe now they will force companies to put enclosed lifeboats onboard, maybe some convictions of shore side people will make companies second guess sending vessels out in harms way. Maybe this will force the USCG and ABS to perform real inspections and actually detain ships that are not seaworthy. Had his been a tanker, people would be singing a different tune about how there's no benefit for the general public.

Most people have no idea the pressures of working on a ship, and until you do, you have no right to say whether this is a waist of time and money or not!
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:07 PM   #72
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I do have the right to speak my mind. There would be no need for more lifeboats or any other equipment if the ship will not go to that storm. It does not matter if is a commercial ship or a small sailboat. Storm is a storm, and they have bad reputation for a reason. No safety equipment can save you. The captain was experienced man, and it was his decision, based on information provided to him, to continue. The damage is done - get over it. Just do not trust the "weather man" with your life and your crew.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:24 PM   #73
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Wow..speak your mind but I am not sure you are close on the facts of the entire story.....well at least with your oversimplification of "it was the hurricane stupid".

Thanks for the viewpoint....but I will stick with the "get the data recorder crowd", let the NTSB do its job, and wait for the pundits to bring up all the after the fact tidbits before I will even begin to understand what really happened and only then point a finger if one is deserved.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:50 PM   #74
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Maybe, if the engine would not quit, then maybe the ship would make it.
Maybe, if the boat was brand new and stronger, then maybe it would make it.
Maybe, if that was a tanker and not container ship, then maybe it would make it.
That is all maybe, because the wind and water force was able to to rip that ship apart.
I was in transportation business, as a truck driver, for 40 years and I know the pressure company put on workers to deliver a load on time. Sometime, I had to bent the DOT rules to get it on time and accident free. It is not the equipment, but the man that is using it. 10 years ago, truck begin to have VORAD - advance warning collision system. In dense fog will give to you warning that something is on the road at 150 feet in advance. Driver had the option to turn it on or off. Still, some truck were getting into accidents in a fog. My point is - they all looking to blame some one into wrong places. Want to blame some one - blame the guy who give that captain wrong information's.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:18 PM   #75
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About the wrong information - few years ago, I went to small town in Arkansas to pick up a load. Company provided to me directions to that shipper. At one intersection, I was told to make left turn. It was wrong directions and I end up in residential street - no truck allowed. I had to drive 5 block, before I found place to turn around. Someone called police and I got $150 ticket. If I would be loaded (80,000 lbs) the damage to those streets will run into hundreds of thousand of dollars. The truck was in very good condition and I was rested. If I would cause a damage to those streets, some government authorities would be involve in the investigation. After few months of investigations, they will find that the truck and driver were in compliance with DOT regulation and the reason was - wrong directions provided to driver from company. I would tell them, just as I told that policeman, that I got wrong directions they are wasting a time and money lookinf for someone to blame.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:59 PM   #76
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I would tell them, just as I told that policeman, that I got wrong directions they are wasting a time and money lookinf for someone to blame.
I don't think that you understand the primary purpose of an NTSB investigation. It is not to "find someone to blame". They are there to improve the safety of the transportation system. The reason they investigate accidents within the transportation arena is to determine the chain of events that led to the accident. Sure, when all is said and done, weather will likely be a huge contributing factor but there are likely other factors as well. As SaltyDog mentioned, there are a lot of folks that depend on that information to help avoid future losses.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:06 PM   #77
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Oh you can speak your mind, but you're speaking out of your rear and it's obvious you don't have a clue. I don't care you were a trucker, you have no idea what it's like to be a captain. There's no "it happened, get over it" I want to know what the VDR says.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:31 PM   #78
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I don't think that you understand the primary purpose of an NTSB investigation. It is not to "find someone to blame". They are there to improve the safety of the transportation system. The reason they investigate accidents within the transportation arena is to determine the chain of events that led to the accident. Sure, when all is said and done, weather will likely be a huge contributing factor but there are likely other factors as well. As SaltyDog mentioned, there are a lot of folks that depend on that information to help avoid future losses.
What are they expecting to find out?.
They may say that the ship was in no condition to go into that storm.
They may say that the equipment was not sufficient to go into that storm.
They may say, that the captain was pressure to go into that storm, but, at the end, "wrong turn" based on wrong information will the the primary factor. That where they should start and end. Put the past behind and let those poor souls rest in peace. Does any one think that a new ship with proper safety equipment will stand a chance with that weather force. Good luck with that one.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:45 PM   #79
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Thanks for the viewpoint....but I will stick with the "get the data recorder crowd", let the NTSB do its job, and wait for the pundits to bring up all the after the fact tidbits before I will even begin to understand what really happened and only then point a finger if one is deserved.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:56 PM   #80
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Maybe, if the engine would not quit, then maybe the ship would make it.
Maybe, if the boat was brand new and stronger, then maybe it would make it.
Maybe, if that was a tanker and not container ship, then maybe it would make it.
That is all maybe, because the wind and water force was able to to rip that ship apart.
I was in transportation business, as a truck driver, for 40 years and I know the pressure company put on workers to deliver a load on time. Sometime, I had to bent the DOT rules to get it on time and accident free. It is not the equipment, but the man that is using it. 10 years ago, truck begin to have VORAD - advance warning collision system. In dense fog will give to you warning that something is on the road at 150 feet in advance. Driver had the option to turn it on or off. Still, some truck were getting into accidents in a fog. My point is - they all looking to blame some one into wrong places. Want to blame some one - blame the guy who give that captain wrong information's.
How do we know someone gave the captain wrong info?

Isn't that the point of getting a recorder that MIGHT tell us who knew what, when?

Guessing is a fun game....but I never had the stomach to do it over someone's grave or publicly on a forum that could get back to their relatives....not until something concrete pops up.

Sure, they got run over by a hurricane...sounds bad for a few people involved...but I would love to know why......and not speculation by a lot of people with either no clue of what happened or even how it could have happened...and not speculation.by people who do have a clue but obviously some ax to grind.
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