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Old 10-26-2015, 09:45 AM   #121
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My AIS has an on/off button. Not unique in this respect I'd guess, so not seeing nearby vessels (why not?) can be accommodated.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:57 AM   #122
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My AIS has an on/off button. Not unique in this respect I'd guess, so not seeing nearby vessels (why not?) can be accommodated.
Well...AIS is receive (i.e. "seeing nearby vessels") and - depending on device - transmit (i.e. "informing nearby vessels about your vessel"). Folks on this thread have expressed a variety of preferences - some like the info, some want the other vessels to behave differently (!), some like "privacy". So some want what I guess is better software on their chartplotter (to filter out "too many boats") and others want to turn transmit off at various times. Sure, you can put a breaker / switch on AIS to turn it off. And some (most?) transcievers have a "silent" mode that stops transmitting.

But then there are those pesky NavRules that require / encourage / suggest that you must / should / might use every available means.
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:17 AM   #123
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Took me a while to find that - here is the link to http://navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/AIS/33_CF..._FR_linked.pdf

But you certainly did some selective editing there, leaving out:
ß 164.01 Applicability.
...
d) Provisions of ß 164.46 apply to some self-propelled
vessels of less than 1600 gross tonnage.
Shouldn't have taken that long to find it. All you had to do was follow the links you had already posted, like I did.

Not selective editing at all and if I decided that was needed, I would certainly be asking you to be my tutor.

I saw no need to include "164.46" because it;
(a) appeared in previous posts within this thread.
(b) refers primarily to Class A devices except when:
(i) it deals with using a Class B in lieu of Class A in;
(ii) a small group of special category vessels.

Now, looking at Refugio, it is my opinion she is neither a dredge, nor commercial fishing vessel. Maybe she fits one of the other small categories, I don't know, but it's still my opinion Part 164 is not applicable to most on here.

For anyone wishing to waste a day burrowing through it all, here is the entire line up for the game...
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=0c5dd6d3634467f25e4f3c284ace32c3&rg n=div5&view=text&node=33:2.0.1.6.33&idno=33

If nothing else Keith, we might be entertaining 1 or 2 folks here and also bringing their attention to some useful (or not) information.
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:32 AM   #124
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One last (maybe) comment;
When trying to wade through Part 164, which is but a thumbnail of the big picture, it becomes apparent how difficult it must be for LEOs to know how to enforce these things either at sea or on land.

But, like I said earlier, we must ensure there is a jug of Nunís Island in the desk drawer of every lawyer.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:52 PM   #125
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One last (maybe) comment;
When trying to wade through Part 164, which is but a thumbnail of the big picture, it becomes apparent how difficult it must be for LEOs to know how to enforce these things either at sea or on land.

But, like I said earlier, we must ensure there is a jug of Nunís Island in the desk drawer of every lawyer.
Fortunately there aren't more accidents to set up more legal battles. It becomes, however, the totality of the situation. Did the failure to do some reaonable act lead or contribute to the accident.

I doubt it impacts many recreational accidents. However, it probably is a strong part of many commercial accidents.

I do know of one recreational accident where not having the radio on and not having the radar pulled up were cited and I think might have influenced the decision.
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:35 PM   #126
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Modify the meaning? Not in my mind, but in the interest of completeness, here is the rest of that FAQ:
The Navigation Rules are not meant to discourage the use of any device, rather they expect prudent mariners to avail themselves of all available means appropriate...as to make full appraisal of the situation (Rule 5), e.g. the use of radar. At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact.
So, ok, you'll get your day in court via "due process", which is constitutional (in the US). I can't wait to hear the arguments against using Radar (and AIS) - I'll bet it sounds like the guy this summer who was found guilty of "homicide by watercraft" who claimed he was in the "fast lane" on Lake Washington.
I have plenty of examples of navigating without having the radar on because it is of no consequence.

If you spend enough time on the water...anyone could think of them.

And thus the additional comments added by the USCG suggesting that only a court can determine that issue....a fact conveniently left out in earlier posts...

Also, having taught the captains licensing course...that question came up often...and usually the answer from the USCG was no...there are times it does not have to be on, especially for toy boaters and little commercial ops.

"Prevailing circumstances"........why even use the word if the requirement is 100 percent "must".
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Old 10-26-2015, 03:58 PM   #127
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"Prevailing circumstances"........why even use the word if the requirement is 100 percent "must".
I'm sorry, are you arguing with me? Or with the USCG? As far as I know, they are not monitoring this thread.


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Old 10-26-2015, 05:02 PM   #128
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Sorry, I misread post 88 where you did say radar is not required to operate at all times.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:21 PM   #129
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It comes down to using good, sound judgement. That's what the USCG really cares about and what your insurer cares about. Even what courts care about. If you're out running offshore at night then you better be using your radar and anything else you can use. If you're doing a day trip on the ICW you better be keeping your eye on the water and all the boats that you can see just by looking, because one or more of those boats may do something crazy and you won't be warned of that by a radar. Then if there happen to be a few water skiers or boarders or PWC's, concentrating on what is in front of you becomes even more critical. The most disconcerting situation I can recall recently is a Whaler pulling someone on a tube across right in front of us. The Whaler cleared easily, but if the person on the tube had gotten tossed off, only our attention would have prevented harm.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:38 PM   #130
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Sorry, I misread post 88 where you did say radar is not required to operate at all times.
Ah, OK. That's what I believed when I wrote that message, and it aligns with what you and Marin have said, but...it doesn't really align with the NavRules FAQ (which I also posted). That FAQ was last updated last month - could it be that the USCG's thinking has "evolved"? Or is it possible that everyone got it wrong previously?
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:51 PM   #131
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4

The entire FAQ discusses the option of using it at the end.....what the USCG says in an opinion as opposed to what they say later is really up for the courts to decide says it all in my mind.
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Old 10-26-2015, 06:43 PM   #132
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...could it be that the USCG's thinking has "evolved"?
The USCG is no different than any other law or regulation-enforcement organization. The "correct" interpretation is what the officer/official you are dealing with at the time says that it is.

We run into this all the time with Customs, not just in this country but in lots of countries because we travel with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of video equipment all over the planet. We have all this equipment on a carnet, but even that is open to interpretation by the officials in the country we are dealing with at the time. And some countries like China don't accept carnets for professional equipment at all but have their own constantly-changing requirements for equipment coming in and going out.

So there may be the published "rules" which may or may not be easy to interpret. But the only thing at actually matters is what the official standing in front of you says is the "rule" at the time.

In our case regarding the use of radar, the USCG officer told us that the determination as to whether or not its use was "appropriate" to the circumstances was a determination only we could make; the "rule" did not define what constituted appropriate circumstances or use.

One could probably find another USCG officer, perhaps even in the same station, who might interpret the "rule" as saying that if you have radar it has to be on all the time.

We've witnessed heated arguments between Customs officials in the commercial declaration office at the border crossing at Blaine, WA over the interpretation of some seemingly pretty straightforward definition regarding some trucker's load. In the end, the only interpretation that mattered was the one believed by the official who won the argument.
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:10 PM   #133
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It comes down to using good, sound judgement. That's what the USCG really cares about and what your insurer cares about. Even what courts care about. If you're out running offshore at night then you better be using your radar and anything else you can use. If you're doing a day trip on the ICW you better be keeping your eye on the water and all the boats that you can see just by looking, because one or more of those boats may do something crazy and you won't be warned of that by a radar. Then if there happen to be a few water skiers or boarders or PWC's, concentrating on what is in front of you becomes even more critical. The most disconcerting situation I can recall recently is a Whaler pulling someone on a tube across right in front of us. The Whaler cleared easily, but if the person on the tube had gotten tossed off, only our attention would have prevented harm.

So...if you're only using your radar when you run at night, how do you know what the radar returns represent? How does that work out for the beginning boater? Inquiring minds and all...


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Old 10-26-2015, 07:39 PM   #134
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I don't know what you mean by definitive. I would suggest however he would qualify as an expert in these matters, given his practice is maritime law (I, on the other hand am no such expert). He is a member of the Transportation Appeal Tribunal of Canada. His bonafides were deemed sufficient qualification to earn his position on that tribunal.
Sorry Jim, in all the dust, I missed this one earlier.
By definitive, I meant that even he would give an answer based on interpretation which, in a stretch, you might call guess or opinion. As learned as he may be the ultimate answer comes from a trier of fact and even that is sometimes subject to a higher trier.
That doesn't mean a CO Judge either.
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Old 10-26-2015, 08:16 PM   #135
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So...if you're only using your radar when you run at night, how do you know what the radar returns represent? How does that work out for the beginning boater? Inquiring minds and all...

There's rules and the interpretation of rules, and then there's common sense. We don't have to have our radar on when we run our boat because nobody officially tells us we have to. At least that's what we've been told by the USCG person who 'splained all this radar business to our club.

Okay, fine. That's the "official" word we got.

But...... when we operate our boat our radar is on all the time, even if the visibility is unlimited and there is no other boat in sight.

Why? We obviously don't have to, given the "official" interpretation of the regulations we've been given by the USCG.

Because it seems common sense to us that if we always have our radar on when we're running, and we refer to it often which we do because we run it in split screen mode with the plotter's steering directions, we know what the display looks like and how to interpret it. We are used to adjusting the gain to make small targets more visible and then adjusting it again to make large targets less dominating. We know how to take a bearing and range on a target because we do this from time to time just to stay current on the process.

We do the same thing with our plotters. We follow courses to all our destinations, even those that are not far away and we don't need the plotter to get there. Why? Same reason as the radar; so we know what it's like to run the boat "on instruments."

So when we come around the end of an island and run slap bang into a low layer of dense fog lying down the center of Rosario Strait as it does at certain times of the year we can continue our trip seamlessly as we're already running on instruments to a degree.

I think it would behoove a new boater to get some of the very good books on the subjects of navigation and radar and whatnot, learn how to use the systems on their boats and then use them regularly or all the time so they become second nature.
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Old 10-26-2015, 08:17 PM   #136
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So...if you're only using your radar when you run at night, how do you know what the radar returns represent? How does that work out for the beginning boater? Inquiring minds and all...

There's rules and the interpretation of rules, and then there's common sense. We don't have to have our radar on when we run our boat because nobody officially tells us we have to. At least that's what we've been told by the USCG person who 'splained all this radar business to our club.

Okay, fine. That's the "official" word we got.

But...... when we operate our boat our radar is on all the time, even if the visibility is unlimited and there is no other boat in sight.

Why? We obviously don't have to, given the "official" interpretation of the regulations we've been given.

We do it because iit seems common sense to us that if we always have our radar on when we're running, and we refer to it often which we do because we run it in split screen mode with the plotter's steering directions, we know what the display looks like and how to interpret it. We are used to adjusting the gain to make small targets more visible and then adjusting it again to make large targets less dominating. We know how to take a bearing and range on a target because we do this from time to time just to stay current on the process.

We do the same thing with our plotters. We follow courses to all our destinations, even those that are not far away and we don't need the plotter to get there. Why? Same reason as the radar; so we know what it's like to run the boat "on instruments."

So when we come around the end of an island and run slap bang into a low layer of dense fog lying down the center of Rosario Strait as it does at certain times of the year we can continue our trip seamlessly as we're already running on instruments to a degree.

I think it would behoove a new boater to get some of the very good books on the subjects of navigation and radar and whatnot, learn how to use the systems on their boats and then use them regularly or all the time so they become second nature.
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Old 10-27-2015, 12:45 AM   #137
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So...if you're only using your radar when you run at night, how do you know what the radar returns represent? How does that work out for the beginning boater? Inquiring minds and all...


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At no point did I say a thing about only using radar at night. I simply stated that on a busy day on the South Florida ICW you had plenty of more crucial things to do than look at your radar and your radar had minimal value. Obviously you should acquaint yourself with it and learn to use it during daylight and clear conditions.

I simply gave two examples of different situations, one where radar was quite critical and the other where having it on or not mattered little.

I have no idea where you interpreted that as a statement not to use a radar during daytime and/or not to learn to use it during the day.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:54 AM   #138
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So...if you're only using your radar when you run at night, how do you know what the radar returns represent? How does that work out for the beginning boater? Inquiring minds and all...


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Well certainly AIS is a big advantage if the target is transmitting. If you have a plotter that the radar overlays, you can often determine if the target is a landmass or navigation aid. Newer radars also have ARPA which allows you to highlight a target and see if it's moving. The radar over a short period of time will then determine speed and course of the target, closest point of approach, and if on a intersecting course, time to intersection. Lots of neat features to modern radar, but you need to practice a fair amount on a nice clear day to help you understand what the radar is showing you. I run mine whenever I'm underway. As I travel at slower speeds, I get passed a lot. It's easy to learn your radar with overtaking objects as the time period to intersection is much slower.

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Old 04-26-2016, 06:16 AM   #139
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I'm thinking about getting an AIS receiver/transponder thingamajig. Read this whole post and think I want it. I travel the ICWG a lot and find that the tug traffic can get hairy sometimes-like this past weekend heading East into a 35 mph wind and a tugs with a 6 pack tows coming at you around a bend, getting crossways in the channel. Avoided trouble by reducing speed from 7knts to 0 knts. Also, would like the other vessels to know who and where, etc., I am. It's also easier to communicate by vhf if I know the vessel's name, heading,etc. Unfortunately, I'm ignorant about this technology and do not want to buy the wrong thing or over spend for a new gadget that I can really do without. I want it but I don't need it type of thing. If you know what I mean. Any suggestions?
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Old 04-26-2016, 06:34 AM   #140
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Get it.

Although for your example of when it would be really useful I suggest finding out how many of those tugs have it. When in BC I noticed that the tugs with log booms more often than not did not have AIS. In my view it should be mandatory for all commercial vessels, but I don't think that's the case at this point of time.
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