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Old 10-24-2015, 11:00 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post

Oh, and even though someone can tell pretty easily when I'm somewhere else, they don't know who else is in my house..... That's my secret weapon - sort of.
The house check is so much easier. Too many signs whether it's being lived in or watched or not. Mail. Lawn. Newspapers. Lights at night. Coming and going. Trash being put out, so casing on trash day is done. Flyers at front door. Then of course, everyone you told or notified. Now, Facebook announcements are nice and make it easier.

So most house thiefs are not looking for AIS.
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Old 10-25-2015, 08:24 AM   #102
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I consider AIS a key safety feature. One example is entering a busy harbor like Norfolk at nigh with heavy traffic. Very comforting being called by name with ships intention and staying in synch with traffic.
Recently I found out a big negative with AIS. NOAA tracks boats via AIS while traveling through Right Whale habitat. If you are going over 10 knots and over 65 feet you will be notified by certified mail and fined sometimes 18 months later.
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:39 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Marin View Post
This statement trips up a lot of boaters. "Appropriate" does not mean "have to use it." In a USCG presentation to our boating club a number of years ago this topic came up. A question was asked "who determines what is appropriate?" Answer- you do, meaning the captain or whoever has responsibility for the vessel.

Another question was does this mean if your boat has a working radar you have to have it on when you are underway? Answer- no. However if you have a working radar and you are involved in a collision or accident that using your radar might have prevented had you been using it then you may be deemed at least partly responsible for the accident.

I suspect the same holds true for AIS which, like radar, is not required for recreational boating. Use it if you determine it is appropriate for the conditions. If you don't think it's appropriate you are under no obligation to use it.
And this message illustrates why forum readers should not rely on the opinions expressed by members, but should look instead for an authoritative source, in this case the USCG NAVRULES FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:
11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it.
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:50 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by refugio View Post
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS[/URL]:
11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it.
I believe that's almost what that means but not quiet, so perhaps another rule is careful interpreting rules or FAQ's. Proper use does not mean one must use it at all times, but means that one must use it if conditions and circumstances warrant.

Now that we have differing interpretations of one statement, that does point out the difficulty of some of the rules. My interpretation was the if they meant it must be used at all times they would have stated "that radar must be used at all times if fitted and operational" or something stronger and more rigid than what they did state. Now, there's now way of knowing whether your interpretation or mine is correct and I'll bet if you spoke with multiple CG officers you'd get differing interpretations as well.
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Old 10-25-2015, 12:06 PM   #105
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I believe that's almost what that means but not quiet, so perhaps another rule is careful interpreting rules or FAQ's. Proper use does not mean one must use it at all times, but means that one must use it if conditions and circumstances warrant.



Now that we have differing interpretations of one statement, that does point out the difficulty of some of the rules. My interpretation was the if they meant it must be used at all times they would have stated "that radar must be used at all times if fitted and operational" or something stronger and more rigid than what they did state. Now, there's now way of knowing whether your interpretation or mine is correct and I'll bet if you spoke with multiple CG officers you'd get differing interpretations as well.

My opinion. I will deter to the expert opinion of a maritime lawyer on this one. Until that time, I will keep all Nav aids in operation when the vessel is underway.


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Old 10-25-2015, 12:13 PM   #106
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But Keith, really, look what you just said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
And this message illustrates why forum readers should not rely on the opinions expressed by members, but should look instead for an authoritative source, in this case the USCG NAVRULES FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:
11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it.
When you site a Reg and then say "In other words" you are just expressing YOUR opinion.

The first half of your post negates the second half.
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Old 10-25-2015, 12:14 PM   #107
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My opinion. I will deter to the expert opinion of a maritime lawyer on this one. Until that time, I will keep all Nav aids in operation when the vessel is underway.


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It could take a team of maritime attorney's all arguing with each other as a couple of more complex words. You say you'll keep them all in operation. That may not mean proper use. I trust you would put it to proper use, but I've seen people who had no idea how to properly set their radar and/or didn't pay attention to it.
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Old 10-25-2015, 12:49 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JDCAVE
I will deter to the expert opinion of a maritime lawyer on this one.
Then expert "opinions" line up on the other side and that's what keeps the self serving, billable minutes industry going.
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Old 10-25-2015, 01:56 PM   #109
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Then expert "opinions" line up on the other side and that's what keeps the self serving, billable minutes industry going.

I have a former colleague who practices maritime law. I'll ask him if leaving your AIS off would constitute proper use of the equipment when underway.


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Old 10-25-2015, 02:08 PM   #110
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I have a former colleague who practices maritime law. I'll ask him if leaving your AIS off would constitute proper use of the equipment when underway.
But that's just it isn't it?
Unless there is substantive case law, all he can cough up is an opinion.
In that case, his word is no more definitive than yours, mine or the man in the Moonstruck.
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:29 PM   #111
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Full quote of the USCG Frequently asked question from post #103:

"1. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it. The Navigation Rules are not meant to discourage the use of any device, rather they expect prudent mariners to avail themselves of all available means appropriate...as to make full appraisal of the situation (Rule 5), e.g. the use of radar. At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact.

Should you be in a collision how would a judge/jury rule on your contention that the use of radar was impracticable (due to electrical drain, crew shortages, etc.)? Also, if a collision does occur, then there was obviously a risk of collision beforehand. Could the determination of that risk have been made sooner with the use of radar? It is difficult to answer such questions because the circumstances of each case are different.

More importantly, remember that Rule 7 specifies that assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information."
End quote.

Refugio did not add the bold print words in post #103, they are part of the USCG answer to the FAQ.
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:46 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by refugio View Post
And this message illustrates why forum readers should not rely on the opinions expressed by members, but should look instead for an authoritative source, in this case the USCG NAVRULES FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:
11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it.
I truly enjoyed some of the "interpretations" of "In other words, whoever has one must use it". I'm guessing that those folks didn't recognize a block quote - with emphasis added - or click through to read the USCG FAQ, where they would have seen that that is what the USCG posted in an (apparently unsuccessful) attempt to put to rest all the "interpretations".
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:58 PM   #113
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from "USCG AIS frequently asked questions" site

"6. When must AIS be in operation? Vessels equipped with AIS (either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily) must abide by the requirements set forth in 33 CFR 164.46(d) and should especially ensure their AIS is in properly installed, using an assigned MMSI, and, that its data is accessible from the primary conning position of the vessel. Also, that it be in 'effective operating condition', which entails the continuous operation of AIS and the accurate input and upkeep of AIS data fields during all times that the vessel is navigating (underway or at anchor), and, at least 15 minutes prior to unmooring. Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. The AIS should return to continuous operation as soon as the source of danger has been mitigated."

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=AISFAQ#6
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:02 PM   #114
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Refugio did not add the bold print words in post #103, they are part of the USCG answer to the FAQ.
Yes, but a lot of qualifiers followed the part he made bold that modify the meaning and then ultimately says, and I am paraphrasing, "you can't be sure what a court will decide."
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:10 PM   #115
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from "USCG AIS frequently asked questions" site

"6. When must AIS be in operation? Vessels equipped with AIS (either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily) must abide by the requirements set forth in 33 CFR 164.46(d) and should especially ensure their AIS is in properly installed, using an assigned MMSI, and, that its data is accessible from the primary conning position of the vessel. Also, that it be in 'effective operating condition', which entails the continuous operation of AIS and the accurate input and upkeep of AIS data fields during all times that the vessel is navigating (underway or at anchor), and, at least 15 minutes prior to unmooring. Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. The AIS should return to continuous operation as soon as the source of danger has been mitigated."

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=AISFAQ#6
Nice! That appears dispositive and seems like "common sense" to me, but I suppose that one could always argue that the courts may decide differently!
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:19 PM   #116
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Yes, but a lot of qualifiers followed the part he made bold that modify the meaning and then ultimately says, and I am paraphrasing, "you can't be sure what a court will decide."
Modify the meaning? Not in my mind, but in the interest of completeness, here is the rest of that FAQ:
The Navigation Rules are not meant to discourage the use of any device, rather they expect prudent mariners to avail themselves of all available means appropriate...as to make full appraisal of the situation (Rule 5), e.g. the use of radar. At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact.
So, ok, you'll get your day in court via "due process", which is constitutional (in the US). I can't wait to hear the arguments against using Radar (and AIS) - I'll bet it sounds like the guy this summer who was found guilty of "homicide by watercraft" who claimed he was in the "fast lane" on Lake Washington.
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:23 PM   #117
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Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. ]
Exactly the circumstances we switched it off, just we weren't in US waters at the time.
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:48 PM   #118
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But that's just it isn't it?

All he can cough up is an opinion.

His word is no more definitive than yours, mine or the man in the Moonstruck.

I don't know what you mean by definitive. I would suggest however he would qualify as an expert in these matters, given his practice is maritime law (I, on the other hand am no such expert). He is a member of the Transportation Appeal Tribunal of Canada. His bonafides were deemed sufficient qualification to earn his position on that tribunal.




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Old 10-25-2015, 04:33 PM   #119
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Not in my mind, but in the interest of completeness, here is the rest of that FAQ:
And in the interests of even more completeness here is where it all begins and really the whole thing doesn't appear to include most on here.
Does it?

164.01 Applicability.
(a) This part (except as specifically limited by this section) applies to each self-propelled vessel of 1600 or more gross tons (except as provided in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, or for foreign vessels described in 164.02) when it is operating in the navigable waters of the United States except the St. Lawrence Seaway.

This thread could last all winter.
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Old 10-26-2015, 09:36 AM   #120
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And in the interests of even more completeness here is where it all begins and really the whole thing doesn't appear to include most on here.
Does it?

164.01 Applicability.
(a) This part (except as specifically limited by this section) applies to each self-propelled vessel of 1600 or more gross tons (except as provided in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, or for foreign vessels described in 164.02) when it is operating in the navigable waters of the United States except the St. Lawrence Seaway.

This thread could last all winter.
Took me a while to find that - here is the link to http://navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/AIS/33_CF..._FR_linked.pdf

But you certainly did some selective editing there, leaving out:
164.01 Applicability.
...
d) Provisions of 164.46 apply to some self-propelled
vessels of less than 1600 gross tonnage.
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