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Old 04-28-2016, 10:18 AM   #201
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Not all commercial vessels are required....have to check specific caregories till you get to a certain tonnage.

Maybe to use certain services but in general, I doubt the whole sound would be exclusive legislation.

It sure is a great idea...but has so many issues both in implementation and tech so far...that it still requires absolute trust in you radar in limited vis over AIS, and in good vis....a good set of eyes, situational awareness and decent radio skills offset it's importance.

Luxurious in some situations, just electronic eye candy in most.
The rules just recently changed and pretty significantly increased the scope of vessels required to have AIS. I don't recall the exact phase-in schedule. The tonnage for commercial ships came down quite a bit (it was very high initially), and the requirement for passenger ships came was down to. Something like 65' and over with 20 passengers or more. But I think all rec vessels are still not required.
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Old 04-28-2016, 10:24 AM   #202
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The rules just recently changed and pretty significantly increased the scope of vessels required to have AIS. I don't recall the exact phase-in schedule. The tonnage for commercial ships came down quite a bit (it was very high initially), and the requirement for passenger ships came was down to. Something like 65' and over with 20 passengers or more. But I think all rec vessels are still not required.
Yep...just saw that yesterday and didn't get a chance to digest it yet.

But as usual, birds of a feather....so where most small recreational boats are ......so are other small boats, even commercial ones wit out AIS.....

.....like any other tool in the box.....over reliance on it is never good....but what it is good at...it is hard tp beat..
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Old 04-28-2016, 10:34 AM   #203
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On our display, seeing your size info and other data requires a cursor movement and a button push. Not difficult, but not always worth futzing with... in situations where a negotiation is useful, no matter what size the other vessel might be.

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Old 04-28-2016, 10:45 AM   #204
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This notion that freighter, ferries, etc. won't change course for anything certainly hasn't been my experience. I've found that 90% of them do a great job of following the rules. For example, I've passed between the two crossing ferries in various places in the PNW, and they always do what they are supposed to do. I give way to the stand-on ferry, and the other gives way to me. I've called them on various occasions to confirm their intentions, and it's always as expected.

What I think a lot of people confuse is when large vessels are operating in a VTS lane system of some sort. Where there is a traffic separation scheme, participating vessels are required to stay in the lanes, and non-participating vessels are required to stay clear. In other words participating vessels are always stand-on relative to non-participating vessels who are always give-way. And that includes boats under sail.
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Old 04-28-2016, 10:45 AM   #205
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COLREGS or not, I just think it's stupid for someone in a 30' boat to expect an ocean liner to alter its course to avoid them. The guys on the cruisers forum were saying the ocean liner was supposed to alter its course for a 30' sailboat under sail.
They were right. COLREGS say so whether you like it or not. Do you think an 18 wheeler shouldn't stop at a pedestrian crossing because the pedestrian is so much smaller?

The problem is making it subjective. What if the sailboat is 60' and the cruise ship is 400'. Or 100' and 300'? Where do you draw the line? COLREGS does use as size of smaller than 20m as a "do not impede" limit for traffic lanes. It doesn't for open ocean under Rule 18.

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And while we're on the subject, what is the "course" of a sailboat anyway? In my experience, it's similar to a squirrel trying to cross the road. The last time I came home from a cruise, there were a couple dozen small ones racing around randomly in the harbor directly in the channel. Each time I would change course to avoid them, they would turn into my heading.
Those sailboats were not following COLREGs if they altered course to cut in front of you. A 30' sailboat in the ocean isn't going to be doing that right in front of a cargo ship. And if they do then they can expect to be hit.

Like I said - I do avoid collision courses a long way off - hopefully far enough away that the ship's captain has not started to change course. And this is where AIS is very useful.

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Old 04-28-2016, 10:53 AM   #206
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This notion that freighter, ferries, etc. won't change course for anything certainly hasn't been my experience. I've found that 90% of them do a great job of following the rules. For example, I've passed between the two crossing ferries in various places in the PNW, and they always do what they are supposed to do. I give way to the stand-on ferry, and the other gives way to me. I've called them on various occasions to confirm their intentions, and it's always as expected.

What I think a lot of people confuse is when large vessels are operating in a VTS lane system of some sort. Where there is a traffic separation scheme, participating vessels are required to stay in the lanes, and non-participating vessels are required to stay clear. In other words participating vessels are always stand-on relative to non-participating vessels who are always give-way. And that includes boats under sail.
Until the vessel required to not impede is impeding, then the stand on vessel is required to follow normal rules...rather than random like some think is the answer to tough helmsmanship. Rule 8 f iii if I remember correctly.

But it is so rare it is an issue unless multiple vessels are involved....again communications are the solution when within 5 miles of the big boys unless there is light traffic and unlimited sea room....because by then they may have already made their correction.
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Old 04-28-2016, 10:53 AM   #207
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Yep, in come cases you are....

Places like major shipping channels, out guessing the big boys puts them in harms way, better to contact than to just randomly change course.

The guys in the English Channel know for sure...there it is like being a driver in Manhatten during lunch hour...no matter what you do you are turning into someone, something.

I even saw it in narrow ICW channels with assistance towing...at the last minute someone would change course after I already did...bad news.

The rules specify sizes in some situations on purpose....don't out guess the rules...communicate before breaking them....or don't be in a place/position where they matter...that's the easiest.

Right. Remember, the rules require TWO things.

1) The give-way vessel needs to alter course.

AND

2) The stand-on vessel needs to maintain course and speed.

When the stand on vessel starts moving around it can really screw things up for everyone.

So, for example, when you give way to safely pass a boat under sail, then they decide at the last minute to tack and cut back in front of you, that's their bad. They don't get to play dodge ball with you.
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Old 04-28-2016, 10:56 AM   #208
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Until the vessel required to not impede is impeding, then the stand on vessel is required to follow normal rules...rather than random like some think is the answer to tough helmsmanship. Rule 8 f ii if I remember correctly.

Yes, that's the rest of the story. But I'd argue that ALL of it is just following the "normal rules".
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:13 AM   #209
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This notion that freighter, ferries, etc. won't change course for anything certainly hasn't been my experience. I've found that 90% of them do a great job of following the rules. For example, I've passed between the two crossing ferries in various places in the PNW, and they always do what they are supposed to do. I give way to the stand-on ferry, and the other gives way to me. I've called them on various occasions to confirm their intentions, and it's always as expected.

What I think a lot of people confuse is when large vessels are operating in a VTS lane system of some sort. Where there is a traffic separation scheme, participating vessels are required to stay in the lanes, and non-participating vessels are required to stay clear. In other words participating vessels are always stand-on relative to non-participating vessels who are always give-way. And that includes boats under sail.
Twisted, my experience mirrors yours with ferries. Even with them however, if I can easily do so, I will alter my course long before there is ever a question as to a possible conflict. This allows the ferry to continue on their route unimpeded. The key in my own mind is to make that change very early and very clear. Most of the time, I am in the South Sound and not up around Seattle where there is a lot more traffic to contend with. In the Seattle area, there can be several ferries that could have a conflict with you at any given time as well as working around the traffic separation lanes. Being predictable and maintaining course as the stand on vessel is more important there.
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:14 AM   #210
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On the Tennessee River, the most insane boating I saw was pulling a water skier across in front of a tow and barges. Skier falls and they have no appreciation for the time it takes the tow to stop or alter course.
Or maybe it was the operator's mother-in-law on the skis. Just sayin'


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Old 04-28-2016, 11:17 AM   #211
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Twisted, my experience mirrors yours with ferries. Even with them however, if I can easily do so, I will alter my course long before there is ever a question as to a possible conflict. This allows the ferry to continue on their route unimpeded. The key in my own mind is to make that change very early and very clear. Most of the time, I am in the South Sound and not up around Seattle where there is a lot more traffic to contend with. In the Seattle area, there can be several ferries that could have a conflict with you at any given time as well as working around the traffic separation lanes. Being predictable and maintaining course as the stand on vessel is more important there.
...predictable and/or communicate. Random helmsmanship is of no use to anyone.
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Old 04-28-2016, 02:08 PM   #212
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It's just a couple of taps with a touchscreen...your fingertip is the cursor!!!

Yeah, I could see where that'd be easier... in some sea states.

But I don't have it. so... I just have to make do. OTOH, I've never had consistent success hitting what I'm aiming at on marine touch screens...

I could install a mouse on ours, but I expect results would be similar.

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Old 04-28-2016, 02:17 PM   #213
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...predictable and/or communicate. Random helmsmanship is of no use to anyone.
There you go. That sums it up.
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