Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-27-2016, 02:17 PM   #181
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
Many sailboaters think they have the right of way over large ships and expect them to alter course to avoid them. Just read the posts on Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Many? I don't think so. A few? Sure. They are quickly educated on the Cruisers & Sailing Forum if they don't.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 02:23 PM   #182
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
Many? I don't think so. A few? Sure. They are quickly educated on the Cruisers & Sailing Forum if they don't.
Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 02:30 PM   #183
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
Yep, in come cases you are....

Places like major shipping channels, out guessing the big boys puts them in harms way, better to contact than to just randomly change course.

The guys in the English Channel know for sure...there it is like being a driver in Manhatten during lunch hour...no matter what you do you are turning into someone, something.

I even saw it in narrow ICW channels with assistance towing...at the last minute someone would change course after I already did...bad news.

The rules specify sizes in some situations on purpose....don't out guess the rules...communicate before breaking them....or don't be in a place/position where they matter...that's the easiest.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 02:46 PM   #184
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
Wow. That is really disappointing. I am surprised since most of the time they tend to be much better informed.

I agree, size does matter. Not to mention the small issue of the rules for a give way vessel.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 03:03 PM   #185
Guru
 
Arctic Traveller's Avatar


 
City: Juneau Alaska
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Arctic Traveller
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 619
Most all commercial vessels in the U.S. either already will have it or will very soon. We have a recieve only unit and find it quite useful.
__________________
Trawler training and yacht charters at www.arctictraveller.com
Arctic Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 04:25 PM   #186
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
Actually, they tried to "educate" me that because they were under sail, the ships had to alter course to avoid them.

Personally, I believe size wins, especially a freighter or tanker vs. a small recreational trawler, but they wouldn't leave it alone. They claimed that if I altered course to avoid them, I was causing a dangerous situation.

Seriously.
Ok, I'll bite.

First off - from a practical standpoint I will alter course to avoid a large vessel well in advance of needing to worry about collision avoidance. I did that when I had a sailboat too.

That having been said - where in COLREGS is there anything to support the position that a small vessel has to get out of the way of a large one in the open ocean?

In restricted channels and traffic lanes the COLREGS Rule 9 (b) and Rule 10 (j) apply. However, in open ocean Rule 18 (a)(iv) applies.

Let me repeat that I do get out of the way of large vessels well in advance of a situation where either vessel needs to worry about COLREGS. I'm just curious where people believe that it's the large vessels right to maintain course and speed?

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 04:36 PM   #187
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britannia View Post
O
In restricted channels and traffic lanes the COLREGS Rule 9 (b) and Rule 10 (j) apply. However, in open ocean Rule 18 (a)(iv) applies.
I never venture out into the open ocean and therefore I only encounter commercial vessels in traffic separation zones. Therefore to the extent that it is possible, it is up to me to avoid any conflict with them since they are always where they should be doing what they should be doing.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 04:41 PM   #188
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
I never venture out into the open ocean and therefore I only encounter commercial vessels in traffic separation zones. Therefore to the extent that it is possible, it is up to me to avoid any conflict with them since they are always where they should be doing what they should be doing.
100% agree. In and around the SF Bay where I'm located it's always going to be Rules 8 and 10 that apply. I can't see anyone arguing otherwise. I'm just wondering if these "misguided" sailors were discussing the general case where Rule 18 applies (e.g. in the ocean).

Richard
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 05:05 PM   #189
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britannia View Post
Ok, I'll bite.

First off - from a practical standpoint I will alter course to avoid a large vessel well in advance of needing to worry about collision avoidance. I did that when I had a sailboat too.

That having been said - where in COLREGS is there anything to support the position that a small vessel has to get out of the way of a large one in the open ocean?

In restricted channels and traffic lanes the COLREGS Rule 9 (b) and Rule 10 (j) apply. However, in open ocean Rule 18 (a)(iv) applies.

Let me repeat that I do get out of the way of large vessels well in advance of a situation where either vessel needs to worry about COLREGS. I'm just curious where people believe that it's the large vessels right to maintain course and speed?

Richard
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 05:32 PM   #190
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,156
I've seen people on bicycles who thought they had the right of way over all other vehicles. Some will ignore traffic lights and rules of the road. Yes, some or many sailboaters act as if they think they always have the right of way. I've also heard of small boat owners who thought they did my merit of size. Yes, I've even heard of a trawler owner declaring he did because he was much slower. All have probably found situations in which they'd have the right of way, but then they try to apply that to all circumstances.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 05:40 PM   #191
TF Site Team
 
dwhatty's Avatar
 
City: Home Port: Buck's Harbor, Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: "Emily Anne"
Vessel Model: 2001 Island Gypsy 32 Europa (Hull #146)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,733
"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day.
He died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But just as dead as if he'd been wrong."
__________________
David Hawkins
Deer Isle, Maine
dwhatty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 05:49 PM   #192
Wannabe
 
Britannia's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stillwater
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 54
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhatty View Post
"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day.
He died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But just as dead as if he'd been wrong."
COLREGS Rule 8 (f)(iii)
Britannia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 08:47 PM   #193
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I've seen people on bicycles who thought they had the right of way over all other vehicles. Some will ignore traffic lights and rules of the road. Yes, some or many sailboaters act as if they think they always have the right of way. I've also heard of small boat owners who thought they did my merit of size. Yes, I've even heard of a trawler owner declaring he did because he was much slower. All have probably found situations in which they'd have the right of way, but then they try to apply that to all circumstances.
There is no "right of way" in the COLREGS. Well, I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't...
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 09:01 PM   #194
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
There is no "right of way" in the COLREGS. Well, I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't...
No, it isn't called right of way in the regs.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2016, 10:57 PM   #195
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,170
Baker "I was under that impression. He called his app his "AIS receiver". That is not a very good way of looking at it. So I asked the question to clarify. So I assume it is the same thing as Marine traffic...."

Similar, but not the same. MT is not real time. Boatbeacon is real time where I boat.

For example, on Sunday, in the Traffic Separation Lanes, I watched (visually) as a 28 knot (according to Boatbeacon) vessel approached a freighter, to put a Pilot on board. As I watched this happen, Boatbeacon showed the Pilot vessel slow to the speed of the freighter, as I watched them come together, offload the pilot and leave, Boatbeacon showed the speed and position of the Pilot vessel corresponding exactly to what I was watching. The only quibble I have with its accuracy, is the symbols on the screen were the same size for the pilot vessel and the freighter, though their real sizes were vastly different.
I don't think the information received by a receive only AIS could be any more accurate.
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2016, 07:45 AM   #196
Guru
 
No Mast's Avatar
 
City: Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Country: US
Vessel Name: Moana Huaka'i
Vessel Model: Selene 53
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 816
Not using your AIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by koliver View Post
Baker "I was under that impression. He called his app his "AIS receiver". That is not a very good way of looking at it. So I asked the question to clarify. So I assume it is the same thing as Marine traffic...."

Similar, but not the same. MT is not real time. Boatbeacon is real time where I boat.
It is the same. Both get their data from ground stations not directly from ship AIS transmitters. Both are subject to lag and are as good as the Internet connection you have.


[QUOTE=koliver;437344I don't think the information received by a receive only AIS could be any more accurate.[/QUOTE]


An AIS receiver is more accurate. Not all ground stations relay real time. From their own faq "other stations report once a minute, they accumulate the data over a minute and then send it to us. So on average these reports are 30s behind real time." Boat beacons own site says it should not be used for navigation.
No Mast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2016, 08:03 AM   #197
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardude01 View Post
Yes. Same goes for calling barge captains using the boat name. They already see you on their AIS so when you call them they always answer. If I'm coming up to a bend I ask them where they want me to be.

When they can't see me visually they are usually surprised when they finally lay eyes on my little boat. Which doesn't make sense because I think my size data should be on their screen.

On our display, seeing your size info and other data requires a cursor movement and a button push. Not difficult, but not always worth futzing with... in situations where a negotiation is useful, no matter what size the other vessel might be.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2016, 08:28 AM   #198
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
COLREGS or not, I just think it's stupid for someone in a 30' boat to expect an ocean liner to alter its course to avoid them. The guys on the cruisers forum were saying the ocean liner was supposed to alter its course for a 30' sailboat under sail.


And while we're on the subject, what is the "course" of a sailboat anyway? In my experience, it's similar to a squirrel trying to cross the road. The last time I came home from a cruise, there were a couple dozen small ones racing around randomly in the harbor directly in the channel. Each time I would change course to avoid them, they would turn into my heading.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2016, 09:15 AM   #199
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,903
People who have never driven a large ship or a large barge with an underpowered tug just can't understand.

Large ships alter course all the time when others are the stand on vessel...early usually so it DOESN'Tbecome an issue later. At least those captains I have dealt with and all, the USCG ships I sailed on (over 15 different ones if I recall corectly). In fact the CO would order to be briefed if even a close pass was coming up...like 3 to 5 mile CPAs.

The ship may have already altered course in accordance with multiple Colregs, and now your course change has just made things worse.

It is always a judgement call, so smaller vessels that make significant course changes well outside of even becoming a crossing situation...then great...but close aboard with multiple large contacts...randomly not following the regs creates headaches unless all vessels involved are making proper whistle signal arrangements. What a responsible skipper should do...not just "apply the law of tonnage" which usually exists in the minds of those who don't really understand the rules...that's why they are written and readily available to all...and TAUGHT somewhat even at the boater safety course level.

Sailboats randomly altering course in confined areas and cutting in front of power vessels aren't following the rules either.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2016, 10:06 AM   #200
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,156
On the Tennessee River, the most insane boating I saw was pulling a water skier across in front of a tow and barges. Skier falls and they have no appreciation for the time it takes the tow to stop or alter course.
__________________

BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012