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Old 09-06-2016, 10:37 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Really? You may not have noticed, but the majority of cruising boats including sailboats, more resembles FF's description than yours. Not everybody can afford a 6, 7 or 8 figure boat to go cruising on. Most can't afford 3 or 4 figure dockage every night. Should they stay home till they can, or travel on a more modest boat? Are you any better than FF for telling people there is something wrong with them for not traveling at your comfort level? Just out of curiosity, is your idea of "ruffing it" going into a town without a 5 star marina ?

Ted
Wifey B: I'm not telling anyone what to do. I made it clear that if that's what makes FF happy fine but stop trying to convince the rest of us that we're wrong. Now as to powerboats, the majority I see cruising are nothing like his description. The majority of sailboats are. Just because he doesn't want all the modern conveniences doesn't mean he has to put them down constantly. My point too was that all have a level of sacrifice of modern conveniences they're willing to make but none willing to go back to living off the land and no modern conveniences. Just let people choose what they want and stop criticizing those choices constantly. I'm not criticizing his choices in any way. He likes them, that's fine. But constantly putting down our choice to have generators, to have AC is tiring and the majority of boats on this site do have generators.

I am saying it's a bit of a stretch to tell people to ditch modern conveniences on a boat, but they're fine on land.

I want everyone boating in the way that works for them. If I couldn't afford to do it as I am, I'd still be boating. Our boating was a 26', then a 30' runabout on a lake and we loved it. More as he describes except for speed.

As to my idea of roughing it, that's an air conditioned boat with plenty of water and hot water, electric stove and refrigerator and freezer. The marina doesn't have to be five star, but just a decent place to dock. I don't care much about some of the amenities like the laundry and shower facilities because I don't use them.

I admit to liking five star resorts occasionally, spas, nice restaurants, etc. Not to stay in but to visit from the boat. Tennis courts.

Still, marina wise I like the side tie dock at Moore Haven just as much as
Bahia Mar.

Maybe I overreacted to FF's post in this thread and for that I'm sorry. However, he harps on those things constantly. I do doubt seriously that many here want to return to the 20's however, or even the 70's. I was only alive for 7 months of the 70's so can't remember much about them. I do know one thing significant to all of us, the first personal computer didn't come until 1977 and no one was out surfing the internet. So, when we're saying return to the 70's and we're posting it online in a forum, am I the only one who sees the irony in that?

I don't mean to push my way of boating or living on anyone, but don't like it being attacked either, especially with assumptions of problems that we just don't have.

Again, FF is free to live and boat as he chooses. I am as well. I choose generator and AC and electric.
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:50 AM   #22
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I think that it must be clear to all that conveniences come at a cost.

A water maker is a convenience. For some cruisers, it would be a necessity. However, that convenience costs money to buy and install. It costs time and money to maintain. Being yet another system it will eventually fail. There is the cost of the power it takes and the associated sequelae. There is the cost in loss of space inside a boat for the water maker.

The same can be said for any added system in a boat. There is nothing wrong with paying the costs in exchange for the added utility and convenience as long as we understand them going in.
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:55 AM   #23
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Not to be "that guy" but I believe what you want vs what you want to spend is off. I understand not wanting to take on a project like that OA. That was a lot of work and would take a year to get ready to actually cruise. But $50k for a 40ft boat that's perfect is going to be very hard. All boats are going to need that personal touch which costs money.
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Old 09-06-2016, 11:18 AM   #24
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Wifey B: I don't obviously remember the 70's, but I do remember the second half of the 80's, just not as fondly as some. We were in the South but didn't have AC, were lucky when we had working fans. The only heat was space heaters and seldom was allowed to use them. Four or five times a year the electric was turned off. Hot water was occasional but I remember a period of at least two years without it. Lunch at school was by far the best meal of the day. I made sure I always had money for it by finding store owners or home owners who would let me earn a little by helping them somehow. I doubt I was much help, but it was really their form of charity. Clothes came from Salvation Army and Goodwill. Walmart was for rich people. I would sneak out and go to the library and read, mainly because it allowed me to stay in the AC or Heat depending on the time of year. Funny, I ended up liking to read. Outside of my school books, there were no books in our home.

So, don't anyone think for one moment, I don't know what it's like to live without things. I feel greatly for those doing so today, but none of them are on this site, not the poor. You own a boat, you're rich compared to them. If you don't realize that, you need to go find them. 15% in the US are below the poverty line. 50% of the people in the world live on less than $2.50 per day. 22,000 children die each day because of poverty. Talk to those in homeless shelters or living on the streets and you realize it could have been you. You're not superior to them, just luckier than them.

We worked hard to get where we are, but we still recognize it wasn't because we deserved it more than others, we were just luckier. We try to help others but, no, we haven't taken a vow of poverty and given it all away to others. Should we? I don't know. I don't apologize for not doing so, but always wonder if I should be doing more.

We talk here about whether boats should have generators or not. Don't we realize how we're among the privileged minority to even entertain such a subject? Thing is we're all rich and all poor compared to others. Hubby's former boss is worth $67 billion. I don't resent him though as he and another man worth $75 billion do a lot of good and have committed half their worth to charity.

Now, back to boating.
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Old 09-06-2016, 11:33 AM   #25
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Wifey B: I'm not telling anyone what to do. I made it clear that if that's what makes FF happy fine but stop trying to convince the rest of us that we're wrong. Now as to powerboats, the majority I see cruising are nothing like his description. The majority of sailboats are. Just because he doesn't want all the modern conveniences doesn't mean he has to put them down constantly. My point too was that all have a level of sacrifice of modern conveniences they're willing to make but none willing to go back to living off the land and no modern conveniences. Just let people choose what they want and stop criticizing those choices constantly. I'm not criticizing his choices in any way. He likes them, that's fine. But constantly putting down our choice to have generators, to have AC is tiring and the majority of boats on this site do have generators.

I am saying it's a bit of a stretch to tell people to ditch modern conveniences on a boat, but they're fine on land.

I want everyone boating in the way that works for them. If I couldn't afford to do it as I am, I'd still be boating. Our boating was a 26', then a 30' runabout on a lake and we loved it. More as he describes except for speed.

As to my idea of roughing it, that's an air conditioned boat with plenty of water and hot water, electric stove and refrigerator and freezer. The marina doesn't have to be five star, but just a decent place to dock. I don't care much about some of the amenities like the laundry and shower facilities because I don't use them.

I admit to liking five star resorts occasionally, spas, nice restaurants, etc. Not to stay in but to visit from the boat. Tennis courts.

Still, marina wise I like the side tie dock at Moore Haven just as much as
Bahia Mar.

Maybe I overreacted to FF's post in this thread and for that I'm sorry. However, he harps on those things constantly. I do doubt seriously that many here want to return to the 20's however, or even the 70's. I was only alive for 7 months of the 70's so can't remember much about them. I do know one thing significant to all of us, the first personal computer didn't come until 1977 and no one was out surfing the internet. So, when we're saying return to the 70's and we're posting it online in a forum, am I the only one who sees the irony in that?

I don't mean to push my way of boating or living on anyone, but don't like it being attacked either, especially with assumptions of problems that we just don't have.

Again, FF is free to live and boat as he chooses. I am as well. I choose generator and AC and electric.
B, sorry if I missed your post as a broader comment on FF's generally frugal recommendations. As a stand alone post it just really struck a nerve. I apologize for my off the handle response. For the record, I've stayed at FF's. He practices what he preaches.

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Old 09-06-2016, 11:40 AM   #26
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Odd - when I read your post it references a "Hilton" rather than a 5 star marina. As to Hilton, IMO, that would be living in the past.
I posted it as Hilton. That was an expression from the 70s that I keep forgetting to discard. Edited it to be more current.

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Old 09-06-2016, 12:52 PM   #27
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B, sorry if I missed your post as a broader comment on FF's generally frugal recommendations. As a stand alone post it just really struck a nerve. I apologize for my off the handle response. For the record, I've stayed at FF's. He practices what he preaches.

Ted
Wifey B: Sorry if I overreacted, but too often it seems to come across not as his preference but more as the rest of us are all wrong for not choosing that way. Not as a choice, but the only intelligent choice. It's not "generators are wrong for me" but "noisemakers are wrong and no one should have them." Even the word, "noisemakers" is a bit out of touch as many generators are not noisy today, and the term seems to be used often in a derogatory manner.

I have no doubt FF likes his lifestyle. We like ours and it wasn't always this way. As to practicing what he preaches, perhaps most of the way. Still one looks around and most are taking advantage of most modern conveniences, starting with computers. Cell phones. Microwaves. Televisions. Digital clocks and watches. It's degrees of modern conveniences as other than those who go to the woods and live in tents there, none of us are giving them up completely. Some a lot further than others. I worked hard to get all of them I could, so I've become a spoiled princess not willing to give any of them up. I admire those who live with less, especially the single moms who somehow take care of three kids while earning little more than minimum wage. I admire any who have found a way to live that makes them happy. I know how it is to hope you get enough in tips to pay for dinner tonight. (Why I tip very well too).

The one I know seems silly to many here is a hot shower every day and clean clothes every day. I remember after I ran away and this nice lady let me have a room for helping her around her house. The first night there I took a bath and shower because I couldn't decide which and both were so incredible compared to any I'd ever had. A comfortable mattress, heat and air, and a bath and shower with warm water. I was in heaven. I thought of her as really wealthy when she wasn't really. Just owned her house and lived on social security. I was so thankful for what she was doing for me. I then realized that she needed some help around the house and couldn't afford to hire it so it was a good trade, plus she was lonely. Oh, and a nice television. We'd sit and watch television together. I know she was curious, but she never asked me any questions about my age or circumstances and I felt safe there too. So not giving up my hot shower.
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Old 09-06-2016, 02:28 PM   #28
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"Are you really ready to give up all your modern conveniences, starting with computer?"

No one suggested giving up modern appliances , just what price comes with each "improvement".

A single solar panel 85W , will allow computers , and fans ,radio , TV and even a microwave and inverter, but not electric cooking.

In our dirt house we tossed the electric range and installed propane, love it.

Our boat has both propane range and a Dickinson oil range.we can comfortably cruise most any season , if the ice is thin.

WE don't freeze at night,or suggest anyone should. HOW a problem is solved is the key.

Going simple is not hard , larger water tanks (2) @ 60 Gallon each keep us delighted with no loss of hot showers .

Showers come after engine operation or a Solar Shower , but the shower is simply to get clean , not a mental health item.''

My comment to gent that cant find a boat without thousands of repairs being required that a simple vessel will have less to purchase, install, maintain , repair and eventually replace than a complex one.

To not go cruising because you cant afford a water maker or multiple noisemakers is to loose a lot of living.
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Old 09-06-2016, 03:27 PM   #29
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"

To not go cruising because you cant afford a water maker or multiple noisemakers is to loose a lot of living.
Wifey B: And I'd never suggest one do that, nor did I suggest that. I would state that one can have both without having major issues. However, he might go with a different boat or it just could be the reason he can't find the right boat is that his heart isn't into boating right now. We tend to not consider that possibility. The OP never said anything about price or about equipment, just junk. We're jumping to conclusions as to why he's saying that. Then water makers and generators (which you won't call that) are brought up. Why the assumption that not being able to afford either of those is causing him not to buy a boat? I don't see the path from point A to point Z. It seems like you've taken the chance to express your disdain for equipment when junk could be the condition of the boats themselves or anything else. Perhaps the engine, and he can't go without it.

Maybe the OP will clarify more as to what he means by junk.
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Old 09-06-2016, 06:08 PM   #30
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Not sure I can buy another boat. . .

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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
B, sorry if I missed your post as a broader comment on FF's generally frugal recommendations. As a stand alone post it just really struck a nerve. I apologize for my off the handle response. For the record, I've stayed at FF's. He practices what he preaches.



Ted

I've also stayed at Fred's dock. He is no nonsense, DIY kind of guy. I respect the way he lives.

If the sh%t hits the fan, you want to be with Fred.

I respect the way anyone wants to live and boat-- and I'm sure you do as well WifeyB.
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Old 09-06-2016, 06:28 PM   #31
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Even the worst boat you could by is better than living in a fixed house. Screaming kids, lawnmowers, listening to the Battling Bickersons, and on and on...
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Old 09-06-2016, 07:15 PM   #32
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Ok, "junk" might be subjective

The boats I'm looking at look like they have sat around unused for several years before the owner decided (or was forced) to put it up for sale. From Craigslist to brokerage boats. Oldest was a 1968 hatteras, newest was a 1992 Catalina 36. I had high hopes for the Catalina being newer and respectably high asking price might reflect it's condition. No. . .noticed the head door had some funny gaps, bulkhead trim widened out to a 1/4" gap, screws pulled off axis. . .clever inspection mirror and cell phone pictures revealed a rotten mast step. Also found freeze damage in the floor frames, wet and splitting rudder, binnacle someone removed all the screws out of. If you sighted along the hull on the starboard side, there was a slight wave just aft of midships, and evidence the hull had been poorly painted then cut and buffed. Lots of PO diy fixes, frozen thru hulls, rotten hoses, etc.

How do you not take good care of what you think is a $54,000 boat

Typically I'm finding thru hulls that are scary, dry rotting hoses, rust ball engines covered in filth with multi-colored cooling apparatuses and cracking hoses, batteries covered in acid, frayed/green/black cables, leaking everything, bilges covered in or filled with boat juices, leaking widows and staining/rot, rusty tanks (or leaking), soft decks, corroding shafts, old cushions, old everything. . .

Most of the above I've already dealt with via repairing or replacing (even rebuilt my engine, black on red. Very snazzy ) on my sailboat on a smaller scale. Contemplating the effort to do it again on a trawler sized scale is a turn off (ie. kicking myself in the crotch again).

Maybe I'm too anal-retentive. I've never been on a "turn-key" boat to compare. Even fellow members here who have toured me their boats have shown me basically the above. They love them, they use them, and I respect them for that (hell, my boat is no where near perfect), but can I buy into one like that? Possibly the right boat, possibly. . .but. . .

_______________________________________

Quote:
You don't say what size boat you are looking at or the price you can afford, but it sounds like maybe the size you want verses the price you are willing to pay are a little out of sync.
Quote:
What you described is exactly what I think the root cause is when paople have a difficult time buying a boat.

I know it comes as a shock to people that what they think is a lot of money is not enough to buy a good condition boat in the size they want.
Quote:
Not to be "that guy" but I believe what you want vs what you want to spend is off.
Yes! I am shocked, still. . .my Sailboat is my first foray into "Real Boats". Before that it was bayliners and wellcrafts on trailers. For all the boats I've looked at; I can find whats wrong or going to be wrong, how to fix it, how much to fix it, how long to fix it, how to take care of it. . .but I can't really tell you why a crappy 35 yr old Monk 36 will sell for 3 times as much and twice as fast as a crappy 35 yr old Ablin 36 for similar deficiencies. It's all plastic and wood to me, built before I was born, in another country (possibly by the same craftsmen)

So please expand on the above quotes, those got me thinking that I'm totally missing something here.

Quote:
Why aren't you using the sailboat? I think that is a question that may give you a clue. If a boat is going to be underused then why purchase one. Why are you even thinking of buying a boat?
Well, really for the last year I've been hell-bent on finding another boat so I've short shortsightedly spent my nice/free weekends traveling And then there is the fact I live on my smallish project sailboat. So I have to pack up my life and whatever unfinished project is stewing to go out. Like this saturday. It is looking kind of nice. I'm starting tonight to start the process of picking up/stowing/packing away so Saturday morning I can check the weather then go.

Heeling can make a mess if you have a lot of loose stuff and no where to put it! I'm hoping a trawler will provide more room to live, but also provide space to put things away behind doors and of course not lean so much

Quote:
LESS IS MORE!
Yes it is! The fanciest electrical gadget I've added to my boat so far is a light for my ancient Windex so I can see it at night if need be I could also go for a water heater but don't the room currently. . .

So there! How is that for a wall of text?

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Old 09-06-2016, 07:20 PM   #33
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Even the worst boat you could by is better than living in a fixed house. Screaming kids, lawnmowers, listening to the Battling Bickersons, and on and on...
Family and friends always remind me of that!
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Old 09-06-2016, 07:27 PM   #34
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:00 PM   #35
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Cool Beans

I have one suggestion and that is to find a buyer's broker you really feel you can trust. I know it's not the price range they might normally be interested in but some would be willing to assist.

You're scatter shooting rather than focused on a target. You need to write down your requirements in detail, both the wants and the must haves. Put your price range including any rehab work. Work with the broker if you choose that route. Otherwise look only within those that match with condition being one of your requirements. Have them send you current photos of exactly what you choose. Find out the history of the boat.

From a 1968 Hatteras to a 1992 Catalina is a wide span. You need to narrow it down more.

Most of the things you mention below could have been found by current photos. And while searching, get out and enjoy your current boat.
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:54 PM   #36
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What do you consider turn key and what do you expect for 50-60k?
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:32 PM   #37
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Beans: I think I could have written your first post. I've put so much work into the boat I have, there's no way I intend to buy another one and do the same. Meanwhile, I keep looking for that dream boat that has and is everything. I suppose that boat could even exist, but not for less than a million or two. Duh!
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Old 09-07-2016, 05:51 AM   #38
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Beans: I think I could have written your first post. I've put so much work into the boat I have, there's no way I intend to buy another one and do the same. Meanwhile, I keep looking for that dream boat that has and is everything. I suppose that boat could even exist, but not for less than a million or two. Duh!
Yes, I think most would agree, that however new and well-fitted out any boat you could buy was, the minute you took possession of it, you would think of several almost immediate must dos or haves that needed doing.
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Old 09-07-2016, 07:18 AM   #39
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But it's nice to be able to concentrate on the upgrades and not the badly deferred maintenance. That's why we're still looking. There are better boats out there at a good price. Just have to sift through the bad to find the good.
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Old 09-07-2016, 08:24 AM   #40
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But here's an idea: look at boats in the 2X$ price range, compared to whatever $$$ you've been shopping on. Maybe some of those don't come with the same "fix-it" penalty, could maybe offer more of a turn-key changeover.
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Yes! I am shocked, still. . .my Sailboat is my first foray into "Real Boats". Before that it was bayliners and wellcrafts on trailers. For all the boats I've looked at; I can find whats wrong or going to be wrong, how to fix it, how much to fix it, how long to fix it, how to take care of it. . .but I can't really tell you why a crappy 35 yr old Monk 36 will sell for 3 times as much and twice as fast as a crappy 35 yr old Ablin 36 for similar deficiencies. It's all plastic and wood to me, built before I was born, in another country (possibly by the same craftsmen)

So please expand on the above quotes, those got me thinking that I'm totally missing something here.

Unless you speak of specific instance where you know a 35 year old Monk actually sold for 3x a 35 year old Albin... I'd guess it maybe really didn't happen. Maybe a big disparity in price, but maybe not near as much as the difference in "asking" price might have suggested... and maybe explainable by other factors -- like how much "deferred maintenance" the new owner was gonna have to (was willing to) fix, etc.

Expansion on idea (above): STOP shopping for crap. Define the feature you need, features you want, features that would be nice to have... and then go find boats that offer those features. At first, without regard to price. (Although it's probably OK to omit the brand new Vikings and Hatteras and Nordhavns and so forth.)

Once you find likely boats/brands/models/etc... THEN begin thinking about the price issue.

You may still find you can't get there from here, but you might at the same time find that out -- for the right reason. Might be about your expectations, your budget, market issues, whatever.

But because you're shopping for crap, all you're finding is crap.

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