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Old 12-21-2013, 10:51 AM   #61
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With ethanol in the fuel the storage life is perhaps a month.
That has not been my experience at all. 7 generators, 5 trash pumps and 2 welding machines, a dozen or so pressure washers and various sundry small gas powered equipment. 3-15 years old, some used monthly, most sit for months at a time with "stale" ethanol fuel in the carb. All of them start first or second try every time.

I didn't count the 80 or so pieces of grounds keeping equipment of the same vintage as they are used weekly if not daily. The ethanol boogie man we so often talk about here has had absolutely zero affect on my operation.

Perhaps routine maintenance trumps fuel chemistry?
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:38 PM   #62
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That has not been my experience at all. 7 generators, 5 trash pumps and 2 welding machines, a dozen or so pressure washers and various sundry small gas powered equipment. 3-15 years old, some used monthly, most sit for months at a time with "stale" ethanol fuel in the carb. All of them start first or second try every time.

I didn't count the 80 or so pieces of grounds keeping equipment of the same vintage as they are used weekly if not daily. The ethanol boogie man we so often talk about here has had absolutely zero affect on my operation.

Perhaps routine maintenance trumps fuel chemistry?
While I agree that ethanol boogey man is not from fuel sitting...he is still out there waiting for a spot of free water to enter his domain (fresh or salt)....once the saturation of ethanol laced gas get to the right level and phase separation takes place...stand by for a gig PIA straightening out the fuel system if it choked on that mess.

I see it a lot on boats where water gets into fuel tanks or filters and that slimy boogey phase separation man makes work for me and mechanics and plenty of pissed off boaters.

And those that think most... or if any in reality...fuel additives stop phase separation...I'd love to know for SURE which ones because in my experience...they don't.
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Old 12-21-2013, 03:27 PM   #63
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I'm not into snake oil additives either. Kinda in the John Baker camp when it comes to water saturation in boat fuel, shove a crowbar in your darn wallet, throttle up and use the stuff and it's a non issue. I'd make a horrible cold environment boater, months of layup is not in my sunshine loving DNA.

As to the equipment I'm responsible for, the mechanics in my shop haven't asked for more money to maintain the stuff yet so life's good. They're still purchasing the same number of carbs and injectors as pre ethanol days according to my inventory records.
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:00 PM   #64
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ETOH (ethanol is great at absorbing water, heck it is the stuff that the northern folks put in the tank to prevent frozen fuel systems (aka HEET). ETOH added to the fuel actually helps keep water problems at bay, things such as rusty fuel tanks and the like.

The problem is when it reaches saturation with water, the 10% added to fuel is really a large quantity of a very hygroscopic liquid so it will hold a whole bunch of water and is very eager and happy to do so.

But when it can no longer hold the water nice and suspended in with the gas watch out, as it changes into a completely new liquid that wont burn and sinks to the bottom of the fuel tank to be picked up by the fuel system where it most decidedly is NOT fuel. It is a corrosive and icky solvent that will pick up what ever crap is in the fuel system and take it on a ride through some very expensive equipment, like high pressure fuel pumps, injectors and then into a cylinder ready to not burn but to cause corrosion to aluminum and steel parts.

Bottom line its the phase separation that is the problem and that happens after saturation occurs, prevent that and it is really not a bad additive ask any NASCAR, INDY or CART or TOP FUEL guy they use a much higher percent up to 100%.

Google.... Phase Separation in fuel with ETOH

http://epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #65
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wow...an echo....
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:33 PM   #66
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wow...an echo....
Sigh.....

That's what I get for starting a post and then getting delayed from finishing and then posting without reading newer posts.

I started this in the morning but was distracted, sorry




You know the saying ....great minds and all that
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:11 PM   #67
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A very valuable lesson(s) learned...

GFC - I hope you post more information about this sinking - more specifically, what happened..

Thanks,
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:45 PM   #68
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I've been going down to the dock every morning to watch (and photograph) their progress. The boat is fully afloat as of this morning and there is no damage to the hull. At this point it's still speculation as to what the cause is but it appears that something froze and broke and allowed the water to enter. After the batteries gave their last breath the bilge pumps kicked off and the boat sank.

The salvage crew knocked off today and will reconvene on December 26th. The plan at this point is to tow the boat to a nearby commercial pier where a large crane will lift it out of the water and set it on a trailer.

I'll be there to photograph that and when it's all over I'll post the photos on a new thread.

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Old 12-22-2013, 12:16 AM   #69
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Mike / GFC - I look forward to your picts and to learn more as WTF happened to sink that boat.

Regarding fuels and additives:

Think what you like and like what you think! I do!! LOL

For long term fuel stability with little to no seperation as well as water turned fuel compatable...Soltron works for me! Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment ~ Save on Fuel, Save the Earth

For carb cleaner - Seafoam is my friend! http://seafoamsales.com/

Years personal experience is my back ground.

Toluene is also my carb cleaner friend! Bad ass stuff! Toluene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Happy Boating Daze - Art
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:22 AM   #70
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I just know that I tow lot's of people with severe fuel issues from separation that are Soltron users as well as every other one out there on the shelf.

Like "an apple a day keeps the doctor away"..sounds great and you believe it if you don't get sick...the guy gravely ill who has eaten an apple a day his whole life doesn't believe the saying any more...same with fuel additives and PHASE SEPARATION...they are good for other fuel ills...
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Old 12-22-2013, 07:03 AM   #71
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I just know that I tow lot's of people with severe fuel issues from separation that are Soltron users as well as every other one out there on the shelf.
Even Soltron's own literature makes no claim that its additive can prevent or reverse phase separation in gasoline. They imply that constant refilling will eventually reabsorb separated water but don't offer any data and conveniently skip over the ethanol fraction of what gets re-absorbed.

The MSDS shows the stuff to be nothing more than kerosene or mineral spirits with 1/2 of one percent some secret sauce. No way is that going to counter phase separation or do much of anything to anything.

I have a bucket that has never leaked in 10 years. It hasn't had anything in it for 10 years either.

I think CAT got it right a long time ago when they started putting the advice to "buy clean fuel - keep it clean" on their fuel caps.

Highly relevant photo below:
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:35 AM   #72
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My experience:

Purchased twin screw gas powered boat with extremely gunked up, considerable water at bottom, and dirty brown colored fuel; in easily accessible spin on filters (same size/look as big oil filter) for each 100 gal tank. Drained filters into clear glass jar during 3 consecutive filter checks... each at approx 15 hour use intervals. Installed new filters each time. Gas in glass jar looked just as brown colored dirty with water at bottom of jar each of the 3 times. I then began putting very heavy doses of Soltron (1 ounce per 10 gal gas) into each tank that was carrying less than 1/2 capacity. Continued per 15 hour use fuel filter content check and replacement schedule. Within 2 more filter replacements I noticed a big difference in gas inside glass jar. Within 4 filter replacements the gas had gone clear and no water in bottom. Continuing to check in same schedule and manner it became clear that the gasoline in both tanks had become clear of color, I no longer saw debris crap floating in gas and there was no longer any water. Now I check filters in 50 hr schedules and after peering at gasoline in my glass jar I pour the completely clear gas back into filter and reinstall it. Every second check (100 hrs use time) I install new filter – not because filter is full of crap (it’s still clean) but rather because I don’t trust rubber seal for more than two compressions during tightening onto base.

We all have our different reasons for doing different things. I tend to rely on practicable tested knowledge, i.e. especially my own experiences – not manufacturer stats, or no stats, or others telling me that just ain't possible! BTW: Since my gas cleared I use Soltron at about 2X recommended amounts. Cost is minimal for the clean gasoline I constantly have in my boat... even after some long durations of no run. For years I’ve had no problems with my boat’s gas – NONE!

This year will be a good check up on my gasoline’s condition. Our 90 yr Matriarch has needed close care and we have spent little time aboard. Next visit (in January?) it is time I do a gas filter check and replace. Plan to let you know what I find in my clear glass jar of gasoline poured right out of the filter!

Happy Holidays! And, Happy Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 12-22-2013, 09:31 PM   #73
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Just a thoughtabout a pattern I noticed; I don't know if it's accurate but I am interested in what y'all think...


People who don't seem to have problems with ethanol in their fuel tend to run their tanks almost all the way down before refueling. (Car, boat, lawnmower... whatever.)

People who DO seem to have problems tend to top off their tanks frequently, rarely running them even halfway down.


Thoughts?
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Old 12-22-2013, 09:36 PM   #74
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Just a thoughtabout a pattern I noticed; I don't know if it's accurate but I am interested in what y'all think...


People who don't seem to have problems with ethanol in their fuel tend to run their tanks almost all the way down before refueling. (Car, boat, lawnmower... whatever.)

People who DO seem to have problems tend to top off their tanks frequently, rarely running them even halfway down.


Thoughts?
I would tend to agree to a point...

The people who have problems with gummed up carbs are those that just don't use the gas enough...

People with phase separation usually have some source of water getting in the tanks or NEVER seem to use their fuel all season.
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:08 AM   #75
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I am not a chemist so I will have to leave that to the posters that are. Our boat is proably a rarity here as she has a 30 gal gasoline tank and is propelled by a 22 yr old Honda outboard. I would be deathly afraid to put ethanol fuel in her as none of her carb seals and parts were ever ethanol certified. Living in Fla, its not a problem to get non-ethanol fuel at the marinas and even at some gas stations so other than the price its not an issue.
I do know that the local paper recently had an article about all the "snowbirds" returning to a car left for 6 month and having serious fuel issues.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:57 PM   #76
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UPDATE--These pics and story are late getting to you by over two months. My bad, I just forgot to post the pics.

They had a diver and salvage team come in a few days later to look at the best way to raise the boat. They decided that putting air bags beneath it and raising it very slowly was the secret. At that point the only diesel leak was a small bubbling up from the diesel heat tank. The tank was sealed off and that stopped it.

Then the diver went down and positioned the lift bags beneath the boat. They secured the bags to the bow rail to keep them from moving fore or aft and started raising the stern first because that's where most of the weight was.

This is a local diver who owns his own dive rescue company. He started early, before the other diver got there, to see if he could plug the diesel leak.





Here's the salvage team diver getting ready to go in and put the float bags in place.


Here they have a bag or two attached below and are starting to inflate them. You can see that the boat is starting to rise. It came up on the stbd side first because some of the port side chine had gotten stuck in the mud bottom and created a suction. At this point they're still trying to pump water out with three pumps running. What they didn't realize (and I wasn't about to tell them) was that with the boat's windows still below water, the water was coming back in as fast as they were pumping it out.


Here they finally got the bottom of the hull unstuck from the mud and it's starting to rise.


I stuck around for several hours but the light was fading so I took off. The next morning I went back down there early and here's what I'd found.....the boat was floating on its own with no pumps required.


They had worked throughout most of the night because once it started coming up they didn't want to stop for fear of it sinking back down. The bags are still attached just as a safety measure.

The end result was they found that a thru-hull that led to one of the engines had frozen and broke. I'm not sure if the fitting broke or the hose attached to it broke, but that was the source of the water.

The boat now belongs to the insurance company. It's still at the dock because the insurance company is starting to realize that:
1. It is going to cost a lot to tow it to a place where it can be lifted. It can be lifted at Lampson Crane's yard which is about 2 miles downriver.
2. It's going to cost a fortune for the cranes and crews to lift it. (DOH!!!)
3. Once they lift it they'll have to put it on a trailer, and they can't find anyone who owns a trailer that's not being used and could afford to let it sit under this boat for months,
4. They can't move it from Lampson's yard without dismantling it because it's too tall so they'd have to bring in a crew to remove the flybridge, etc.
5. They don't want to do that until the boat is sold at auction because they don't want to stand the cost of removing the flybridge.

So here we sit with this beautiful boat floating on its own, just sitting there. They should have had someone come in a pickle the engines right off the boat, but again, that costs money which they didn't want to spend.

At this point it's cheaper for them to continue to pay the moorage on the than for someone to have to make a decision on what to do with it, for which that person would likely be criticized later because they spent a ton of money on getting the problem handled.

So, until the owner (who, by the way has already been paid by the insurance company) gets his new aluminum hull boat built and needs that slip to store it in, it's likely just going to sit there.

And now, as Paul Harvey would say, you know the rest of the story.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:11 PM   #77
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I've seen many yachts sink when the glass in the strainers break from ice. The owners all said "it was freshwater, and we raised it immediately", as if sunk wasn't sunk.
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:48 PM   #78
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Thanks for the update and pics GFC... amazing that this many glitches are following the sinking... lift, trailer, bridge removal, and that probably only scratches the surface... good lessons learned for us... thanks...
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:57 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFC View Post
UPDATE--These pics and story are late getting to you by over two months. My bad, I just forgot to post the pics.

They had a diver and salvage team come in a few days later to look at the best way to raise the boat. They decided that putting air bags beneath it and raising it very slowly was the secret. At that point the only diesel leak was a small bubbling up from the diesel heat tank. The tank was sealed off and that stopped it.

Then the diver went down and positioned the lift bags beneath the boat. They secured the bags to the bow rail to keep them from moving fore or aft and started raising the stern first because that's where most of the weight was.

This is a local diver who owns his own dive rescue company. He started early, before the other diver got there, to see if he could plug the diesel leak.





Here's the salvage team diver getting ready to go in and put the float bags in place.


Here they have a bag or two attached below and are starting to inflate them. You can see that the boat is starting to rise. It came up on the stbd side first because some of the port side chine had gotten stuck in the mud bottom and created a suction. At this point they're still trying to pump water out with three pumps running. What they didn't realize (and I wasn't about to tell them) was that with the boat's windows still below water, the water was coming back in as fast as they were pumping it out.


Here they finally got the bottom of the hull unstuck from the mud and it's starting to rise.


I stuck around for several hours but the light was fading so I took off. The next morning I went back down there early and here's what I'd found.....the boat was floating on its own with no pumps required.


They had worked throughout most of the night because once it started coming up they didn't want to stop for fear of it sinking back down. The bags are still attached just as a safety measure.

The end result was they found that a thru-hull that led to one of the engines had frozen and broke. I'm not sure if the fitting broke or the hose attached to it broke, but that was the source of the water.

The boat now belongs to the insurance company. It's still at the dock because the insurance company is starting to realize that:
1. It is going to cost a lot to tow it to a place where it can be lifted. It can be lifted at Lampson Crane's yard which is about 2 miles downriver.
2. It's going to cost a fortune for the cranes and crews to lift it. (DOH!!!)
3. Once they lift it they'll have to put it on a trailer, and they can't find anyone who owns a trailer that's not being used and could afford to let it sit under this boat for months,
4. They can't move it from Lampson's yard without dismantling it because it's too tall so they'd have to bring in a crew to remove the flybridge, etc.
5. They don't want to do that until the boat is sold at auction because they don't want to stand the cost of removing the flybridge.

So here we sit with this beautiful boat floating on its own, just sitting there. They should have had someone come in a pickle the engines right off the boat, but again, that costs money which they didn't want to spend.

At this point it's cheaper for them to continue to pay the moorage on the than for someone to have to make a decision on what to do with it, for which that person would likely be criticized later because they spent a ton of money on getting the problem handled.

So, until the owner (who, by the way has already been paid by the insurance company) gets his new aluminum hull boat built and needs that slip to store it in, it's likely just going to sit there.

And now, as Paul Harvey would say, you know the rest of the story.
Funny the engines weren't pickled unless they were almost worthless to begin with..every salvage job I've been on that's pretty major as the pickling is chump change compared to the salvage cost and even the engine blocks as "core turn-ins" are usually worth more than the pickling and often cover the salvage or a big part of it.

The concerns of the insurance company are valid but usually managed by someone who either doesn't know or care about the inevitable loss by waiting even a short amount of time.
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Old 02-20-2014, 07:39 AM   #80
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On the broad scope of things...

I can't help but wonder how many boats per year sink at docks and become total losses wherein the ins co needs to fully cover all items? I'm betting this is normally (sans heavy storms and the like) such a small %age of an ins co's coverage range that it becomes a "push" per this type of loss as to whether it is more cost effective for the ins co to try any salvage at all or simply to let the cards fall where they may for eventual disposal of the ruined craft. Heck, if this type ins coverage payment-need becomes too prevalent the ins co can simply raise rates across the board to all its boat owners - you know "shared risk" and all that. Similar as to what happened a few years ago when the big storms decimated tens of thousands boats on east coast... Insurance rates simply went up across the country for all boaters to cover the ins cos' losses. Mine doubled in one year as compared to previous years; I'd never had any claim and never been late on a payment and did not change my policy one Iota!
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