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Old 07-06-2014, 11:51 PM   #81
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I guess if the biggest piece of "evidence" so far is "immaterial"...then what an "investigation" does...is find out what is "material".......hmmmmm

And yes I know something went wrong...there are actual photos of it...but I still possibly haven't seen all the pieces that went wrong...could be as simple as ballast...maybe there IS more.

I apologize if I mislead anyone about the report...there is a 2 pages of writing and 8 pages of diagrams and tables...not sure what the proper terminology would be for how big the report is....
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Old 07-06-2014, 11:54 PM   #82
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I guess if the biggest piece of "evidence" so far is "immaterial"...then what an "investigation" does...is find out what is "material".......

I apologize if I mislead anyone about the report...there is a 2 pages of writing and 8 pages of diagrams and tables...not sure what the proper terminology would be for how big the report is....
Actually what I wrote was that the commented on weight of stonework was immaterial, not that the report was immaterial. The report for anyone posing the question "I assume you have full knowledge of the design stability issues at hand and know that full ballast (which is a disaster for transport) is required to float upright in a mill pond?" would be material for someone actually wanting to understand the design stability issues at hand.

What you call a report of 10 pages is a 10 page report.
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:23 AM   #83
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You know, when I look at the drawings of the Grand Banks 54, I cannot see how it could possibly stay right side up. But somehow it does.

Grand Banks Yachts - 54 Heritage EU Overview
Exactly. Take a look at any of the older Hattrases or Viking motor yachts out of the water. Very flat hulls with very little boat in the water. But magically they stay afloat. Of course they suck in a followng or beam sea with out stabilizers.
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:37 AM   #84
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Look at a Forida Bay Coaster (style) or the "Ferry" class houseboats by Jay Benford....
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:31 PM   #85
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Look at a Forida Bay Coaster (style) or the "Ferry" class houseboats by Jay Benford....
There you go. According to my absolutely non professional eye, there is no way that the Florida Bay coasters could possibly stay upright. Yet they do, and very capably I gather. There was a case a few years back of one capsizing, but it was not related to the stability; rather (if memory serves) an unsecured battery let let go and knocked a hose loose, which let in an overabundance of ocean.

As I recall, in the above case there was a lot of forum chatter about how badly the vessel was designed, until the investigation showed something completely different.
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:54 PM   #86
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Look at a Forida Bay Coaster (style) or the "Ferry" class houseboats by Jay Benford....
Yes, but this photo doesn't show you the BEAM on these boats. It's substantial and I would guess adds stability along with the hull design. It was obvious on that Northern that it didn't look right, as mentioned by many- days before it was launched.
One's eye can tell you all you need to know. One doesn't need facts and figures to tell you what you obviously can see...I say it all the time "if it looks good-it is good, and if it looks bad-it is bad". You can spend ton's of money to prove this statement, but why would you?
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:19 PM   #87
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For a Florida Bay Coaster the name says it all. Not intended for passage making.
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:26 PM   #88
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For a Florida Bay Coaster the name says it all. Not intended for passage making.
Especially with the Jeep on deck that many had, yet they've roamed pretty far from home.
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:26 PM   #89
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Yes, but this photo doesn't show you the BEAM on these boats. It's substantial and I would guess adds stability along with the hull design. It was obvious on that Northern that it didn't look right, as mentioned by many- days before it was launched.
One's eye can tell you all you need to know. One doesn't need facts and figures to tell you what you obviously can see...I say it all the time "if it looks good-it is good, and if it looks bad-it is bad". You can spend ton's of money to prove this statement, but why would you?
Absolutely beam is key in this design as I think Benford goes to great lengths to elaborate on it in his publications.

The pumpkin seed hull design of Catboats and others use beam for stability.

And yes a good eye does reveal much...but without any doubt in my mind...it does not and can not predict stability ....especially from photographs that only reveal profile and/or really not enough info to see what the beam is...even that matters much less than total weight and weight placement when it comes to stability.

There are plenty of strange sculptures out there that withstand earthquakes and hurricanes that defy standing in perfect stillness.

Engineering is a science that allows man to move beyond common sense or "what meets the eye"...proper accident investigation reveals what is missed by the "obvious".
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:36 PM   #90
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I was in Anacortes over the last weekend in June. I had to go check out the latest tourist attraction there. It certainly is a beast of a boat. Lots of scratches down the port side of the vessel.
the boat is not even fenced in. Although there was a fence between where we we were standing and where the boat was, it was just sitting in a field and could be approached on foot by anyone who wanted to walk the distance from the road . of course they would need a tall ladder to get on board, but nonetheless its just sitting there.
I agree that it would make a nice land based home for someone.
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Old 07-07-2014, 03:55 PM   #91
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For a Florida Bay Coaster the name says it all. Not intended for passage making.
Stability is not a value but a range of values. The Coaster has some range of heel angle that if exceeded will cause her to turn turtle. The greater the distance between the center of buoyancy and the center of mass, the lower the range of stability. A sailboat is unstable upside down while the Coaster or the Baden would be quite happy in that position. There is even an advantage to having a lot of boat above the water in reduced roll rate, which is more comfortable than something snappier. Anyone who has been on a sailboat that has been dismasted will attest to how crazy the motion is for this very reason. It is also why they are building cruise ships so tall - they roll, but slowly. The tradeoff is that once the vessel exceeds that roll people die. In Baden's case, even if properly ballasted she is a dead duck at a heel angle greater than 65%, as far as I remember. I can think of lots of conditions offshore where even a 90' boat can be rolled through 65 degrees and if that happened to Baden she'd be a goner.

So when I see a boat like the Florida Coaster, I assume that she is well ballasted, but also know that when you start putting cars on the upper deck you want to avoid offshore conditions, which is how she is recommended to be used.
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Old 07-07-2014, 04:13 PM   #92
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I live about 10 miles from Anacortes and frequent the town often. I have seen the boat before it was launched and by just looking at it I thought there is no way that boat was going to stay upright. It made for great talk amongst the locals!!!
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:07 PM   #93
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???? Why was this thread moved?
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:54 PM   #94
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???? Why was this thread moved?
It got away from the science of fact and into the religion of beliefs. just my guess.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:20 PM   #95
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It got away from the science of fact and into the religion of beliefs. just my guess.
Good comment - although wouldn't most threads belong in the Off Topic Forum then?
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:08 PM   #96
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They should certainly end up here.
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:21 PM   #97
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It got away from the science of fact and into the religion of beliefs. just my guess.
But, it's been that way since almost the beginning of the thread, so I don't get it either.
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:39 PM   #98
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???? Why was this thread moved?
Apparently stability in trawler yachts doesn't have anything to do with trawler yachts. Just a guess, of course....
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:56 PM   #99
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???? Why was this thread moved?

Short answer: because I'm about as dumb as I look. Fortunately I can fix it
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:02 PM   #100
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Comparing Baden and the Florida Bay does not really work, they are completely different boats. The beam/height ratio is far different. And Jay Benford actually did inclining tests and established real stability numbers.

Launching accidents are fairly common, here's another that's eerily similar

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