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Old 12-24-2019, 09:12 PM   #1
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Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

Greetings all, I am new here and just posted a small introduction in the welcome area about us but will elaborate here.
My wife and I are retiring in 3 years and we have decided to purchase a trawler to travel the world in. This will be a full time live aboard lifestyle. This decision has been in the making for the last 2 years and after a lot of study, we are approaching the point where I need to draw on the vast ocean of knowledge and experience I have been reading here to pick our trawler.
We have narrowed down our picks to these three trawlers. Nordhavn seems to dominate the market in PR but consider the owners claim to have a Hummer of the sea, Tony Flemings Venture travels around the world and their followers speak for a family of many, and the Kady Krogen owners with nothing but praise for their decision to own a trawler that serves as the best living space trawler to call home. It comes down to what we want, need and can afford for our adventure to circumnavigate the world.
I am a retiring Electrical Controls Engineer so my thinking is purchasing the right tool for the job. So I will lay out the project much like I do as a project manager to the team.
Mission: circumnavigate the world in all weather conditions and anchorages from the Caribbean shallows to the deep waters of Pacific / Atlantic crossings. (In style and comfort).
Budget: 1-3 million. Time is 3-4 years before purchase. Persons are John & Carol husband wife team and Snoopy our furry son. We are shopping for a 2-person crew either family or professional crew.
Ok first question; Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen. I am leaning towards the Nordhavn because I like the protected prop. The keel wraps itself above and under the screw. Touching bottom does not get near the prop. Iím not fond of a one engine boat but I am looking at new vs used.
Next question. New vs used. This is a struggle I am currently experiencing. If you can afford it would you buy new or used? In cars, I have found you get the best deal if you buy a slightly used car that someone just couldnít pay for or maybe it was a demo model with little millage. Everyone knows once you drive a new car off the lot itís value just dropped thousands of dollars. So I ask: Is it the same for yachts? If any of these trawlers had 2000 hours use, I would consider them as slightly used but still has the new boat smell. Will the bank feel the same?
Our experience; Almost none. I have power boat and sailboat experience but nothing like this purchase. Iím a quick study and I have had a year of navigation and Captain license classes and my wife and I will study towards our captainís license before purchasing. But that is why we are here. A lot of owners of these yachts have a story we want to hear. Why do you own them? What are the pros and cons of the choice you made?
A new purchase comes with a lot of company support and sea trials with experts from the factory. We plan on hiring a captain for waters we are not comfortable with and occasionally a crew when we are pampering ourselves. Face it, adventure is fun until it becomes too much work. Let someone else vacuum up the dog hair from stem to stern. A used boat will have support as well but it will have to have the qualities we want.
1. Stand up engine room
2. King bed located mid ship
3. Giant Fridge
4. Spacious fishing platform and cleaning station
5. Water-tight doors especially to the engine room
6. Protected prop from ice, rocks and logs
7. Redundancy Redundancy Redundancy
8. Water maker
Last question which narrows down the trawler is single engine verses twin engines. We are looking at a length of 60 -75 feet for comfort in heavy seas. This may be excessive and we could be talked down to 50. In the next years we will be on board checking out these lengths during bad weather. The downside with over 50 feet is the lack of port accommodations and cost of berthing. Iím not Bill Gates but I can chase Tony Fleming around for a little while. Then itís Holiday Inn for us.
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Old 12-24-2019, 09:23 PM   #2
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You say sail the world, what exactly do you mean? Do you intend to cross oceans? If so, Atlantic or Pacific or both?

Boats are not like cars, new is not always better than lightly used. Expect to spend several months or even more fixing all the production defects on a new boat. Even though the three you mentioned have excellent reputations these are all very limited production compared to any car and that means teething issues.
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Old 12-24-2019, 09:38 PM   #3
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We intend to cross both and beyond. This will be my last voyage and I want to explore every port, passage and country my ship will take me.

I don't have endless money but properly managed, we can sustain the fees associated with this kind of travel. We all want to stretch a dollar and fuel cost and berthing at certain ports i hope to find advice here.
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Old 12-24-2019, 10:27 PM   #4
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None of the above. Consider Steve Dashew design for power boat. His website has a ton of informative articles and interesting videos.

Regardless, you. Are over prepping for this thinking you're going to bashing into headseas constantly and need to mitigate risk. I can feel the PAE sales people salivating from here.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...fpb64-3096510/
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Old 12-24-2019, 10:53 PM   #5
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Have you considered purchasing a "lesser" boat now that can support extensive coastal cruising? This way you could gain experience and find out if the lifestyle is really one you both will enjoy. You could find a really nice well equipped boat for $300-$400k. I can see that you might ultimately decide to go larger for your future global cruise but you could start with a solid coastal trawler in the 35-45 foot range that should be very comfortable for the 3 of you for now.
As far as new vs. used I have owned more than a dozen and only 2 were new. Boats probably take a bigger depreciation hit than cars and as was already pointed out a used boat that was well cared for might be superior to new if it has been enhanced. Certainly new comes with warranties but many boat systems will either fail quickly if underspecd or poorly built or they will run for a decade or more with routine maintenance. I prefer to find solid boats that are significantly depreciated and often updated or improved by a prior owner. You can easily replace older electronics if you want brand new.

I hope this gives you some different perspective as you plan your "exit" strategy!
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Old 12-25-2019, 01:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magneto View Post
1. Stand up engine room
2. King bed located mid ship
3. Giant Fridge
4. Spacious fishing platform and cleaning station
5. Water-tight doors especially to the engine room
6. Protected prop from ice, rocks and logs
7. Redundancy Redundancy Redundancy
8. Water maker
Last question which narrows down the trawler is single engine verses twin engines. We are looking at a length of 60 -75 feet for comfort in heavy seas. This may be excessive and we could be talked down to 50. In the next years we will be on board checking out these lengths during bad weather. .

We pretty much have all of the above except for a water maker but we do have 5000 litres of water tankage but only have half of that connected being used and good rain collection.

We took on some diesel and filled our 2500 liter water tanks last Sunday.
End of June was when we last filled them.
Tender has a 200 liter water bladder for top ups in between when finding somewhere with a tap.
We live aboard full time cruising 365 days a year.


Quote:
The downside with over 50 feet is the lack of port accommodations and cost of berthing.
The upside is the comfort level.
We have not been on a marina berth in nearly 4 years.
Kit the boat out right and its simply not needed.

Oh, and we are doing this on a very small pittance of your proposed budget.
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Old 12-25-2019, 01:16 AM   #7
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Have you considered purchasing a "lesser" boat now that can support extensive coastal cruising? This way you could gain experience and find out if the lifestyle is really one you both will enjoy. You could find a really nice well equipped boat for $300-$400k.
I posted an immaculate 50ft cruiser a few days back that had gone around the world and it sold for that sort of money.
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Old 12-25-2019, 01:31 AM   #8
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I second the FPB series. Also read Passagemaking Under Power.

https://setsail.com/fpb-64/
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Old 12-25-2019, 04:42 AM   #9
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Quick question; how many folks are going with you?

Personal preface; hydraulicaly stabilized.
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Old 12-25-2019, 06:01 AM   #10
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You make no mention of your boating experience and previous cruising. If this is limited, I would suggest starting with a different plan that includes a smaller vessel and gaining experience. It is OK to dream but best to do it in bed!!!
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Old 12-25-2019, 06:11 AM   #11
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Unless you have experience with smaller boats or are going to hire crew to go with you, I would highly suggest starting with a smaller vessel that can be easily handled by two people. Once you have experienced that, you may rethink how big a vessel you want to have if you want to go by yourselves.
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Old 12-25-2019, 07:15 AM   #12
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Unless you have experience with smaller boats or are going to hire crew to go with you, I would highly suggest starting with a smaller vessel that can be easily handled by two people. Once you have experienced that, you may rethink how big a vessel you want to have if you want to go by yourselves.
This is the sweet spot for PAE marketing. They sell risk mitigation, basically a way for well heeled customers to leapfrog years of seamanship skills - hiring a captain etc is just part of the cost. I'm not being flippant or condescending - these are incredibly strong boats with solid certifications for righting moments and dewatering. A very sizeable percentage of their customers started with a similar dream and roughly similar resume - long on desire, an enviable bank account, but short on relevant experience. Basically, they've operated a small business and somewhere in their 50s or early 60s realize the kids are taken care of and they have a decent nest egg and say "honey, let's buy a boat!"

The good news is its harder and takes longer to pay for a boat like this than to learn how to operate it safely so the OP is over halfway there. YouTube has several Nordhavn folks who started similarly and cruised successfully, albeit with pretty high costs (above my pay grade).

If you haven't already, read Ken'sBlog.com. He's been cruising a Nordhavn for many, many years and is a prolific and candid writer of his experienced and decisions. He started with a N62 and upgraded to an N68 which he sold a year or so ago to build a GB60 so he could do The Loop. He has cruised all over the world and seems to really endorse the Nordhavn brand for distance travel.

In the early 2000s, I delivered a bunch of new Nordhavns - I have over 20k offahore on new Nordhavns, usually with owners aboard. They're nice boats and PAE tries pretty hard to do the right thing (as does KK - I have zero experience with Fleming). I set aside delivering and training to re-enter corporate America and and now getting ready for my own cruise. My choice is to be much more simple than any of the boats the OP mentioned, but I am a small boat sailor at heart so that's my style.

My advice to the OP is to watch the videos and read the blogs carefully and make. Nordhavn owners are especially geeky and often display their upgrades and repairs. These repairs are not unique to Nordhavn, but offer a window into the true cost and cadence of cruising a boat like this. For example, Ken Williams (KensBlog) would fly a couple favored techs into wherever his boat was (Phuket? Dubrovnik?) at the beginning of the cruising season to freshen the boat. Although he rarely discusses finances directly, clearly he writes a lot of checks in the $25k range. I do okay as a management consultant in corporate America but I am at least two commas away from this expression of my favorite hobby. Plus, as a result of delivering so many higher end boats, I have swung the other direction to more austerity and simplicity for my cruising.

The main reason I suggested the Dashew boats is they are fast. Lot to be said for +250 nm days in an offshore boat. That alone opens many cruising windows. Unlike the three boats the OP mentions, the Dashew FPB is never a first big boat for an owner - on its surface, it's an expensive boat. Once you've been around offshore boats for a while, you understand the beauty and design. Sort of how J-Boats had an appeal in sailing - simple, fast, well built (and expensive)

Long way of saying the OP sounds perfect for a Nordhavn. The only question is which model. Lightly used and recent? General rule is you'll get the POs upgrades for free and avoid the lengthy build process. In other words, you will pay approx the same for a used boat as base price on new. Of you've never been through the commissioning process, it's incredibly expensive. Believe it or not, it's pretty easy to get sucked into spending $25k on a searchlight that you will only rarely use.

Good luck!
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Old 12-25-2019, 07:27 AM   #13
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I would first arrange a Bluewater trip if you haven't done one. Charter a boat with captain and crew. A trip to the lower Bahamas or similar when the weather is rough but not brutal to get a feel for what it's really like. I'm not a Bluewater cruiser. Have spent thousands of days running scuba diving charters in the Atlantic. Have been most of a hundred miles offshore trying to survive Mother Nature several times. I think it's important for you and your wife, to have a real taste before going too far forward.

When looking at boats, I would encourage you to get on a few and realize the size difference. At 50', doubling the internal space can be accomplished with an increase of 10' in length as the beam also grows. Not sure you are visualizing the size difference between 60 and 75' within the same boat manufacturer. The second part of the equation is deciding if you and your wife will ever cruise without crew. For each person (solo) or couple there will be a limit to how big you can handle, without help.

Regarding single versus twins, I'm one of the biggest proponents here for single engine boats. If you plan to cross oceans and visit third world countries, you need to be self sufficient. A tow boat isn't always going to be a few hours or days away. Couldn't imagine crossing an ocean without a second engine.

The last part for now is to consider annual budget. As the boat gets larger, so does the annual budget. Does 10 to 25% of purchase price sound reasonable? Adding good paid crew and all their expenses adds up quickly.

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Old 12-25-2019, 07:56 AM   #14
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Magneto
A few early Christmas Day thoughts, with a haze fueled by yesterday's libation:

-- Do you and your wife have proven sea legs so that motion sickness is not an issue
-- Are you mechanically inclined and have a strong background filled with the enjoyment of lifting the hood on your car, changing oil, tearing out a transmission and applying wax?
-- Read James Hamilton's blog starting with his purchase of M/V Dirona. Contact him for some Q&A
-- Add Outer Reef to your list.

Here is a subject to ponder that incites debate. Nordhavn provides the network and established assistance for worldwide repairs, training and education during the new build and beyond times. The others you've listed provide good boats but not the backup as compared to Nordhavn. TF's Twisted Tree is a great go to source of knowledge on this subject.

Good hunting, you're not the first to travel this path. Lots of smart, experienced and sharing cruisers out there with more than opinions.
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Old 12-25-2019, 08:45 AM   #15
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Three good brands, but were it me I think I'd try to expand my comparisons to also include any other brand/model that could fit the mission.

And I think I'd try to get some on-water/underway experience as soon as possible. Maybe some combination of chartering, buying a "starter boat," buying the real boat ASAP, whatever. I'm thinking along two avenues: 1) navigation, safety, boat handling, etc., and 2) boat fixing. In the latter category, consider the example of troubleshooting a fuel issue while underway; maybe not so difficult if coastal and either anchored or towed to the nearest facility, but maybe an order (or three?) of magnitude harder in the middle of the Pacific. (We've had our current boat for 14 years, and I'm still learning how to access/fix stuff.)

New vs. used: Depends. A well-maintained used boat can be a jewel. A new boat with problems can be crap. Depends, but I wouldn't shy away from a used boat just because it's pre-owned if I liked it and it otherwise suited the mission. Marine survey, mechanical survey, then think about it.

If you check out the east coast Fleming dealer (Burr) on the Chesapeake you'll be right next door to our home marina... or maybe even looking at one of the boats they keep in leased slips in our marina. I could probably spring for a beverage or two, if we're around...

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Old 12-25-2019, 09:15 AM   #16
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Thank you all for the good advise.

My first idea was to start with a smaller and older boat such as a 40 foot - 15 year old one. I see lots of these for under 500K. This was my thought a year ago but after seeing the videos of repair and maintenance typical of usage, It seems to me that the newer the boat, the less that needs replaced. I know even a brand new boat has defects but generally true?
A smaller and less expensive boat is most likely where we will start out in. It just seems that every time we search the market, we end up with something around 50 foot or more to give us the comfort of full time live aboard.
We have been living full time in our 35 foot motor home and traveling the country. We consider this our land yacht and even though its apples and oranges to a boat; their both fruit. We are acclimating ourselves to living in this confined space. We love it and have no problem with spending the next 3 years RVing full time seeing the land side of the USA. We've learned the size vs comfort lesson. A large bathroom, kitchen and bed are important to us. We have already sold everything including our house to do this and so far have no regrets.
We want to have enough room to accommodate a captain and two crew which we may hire for difficult passages. Also to accommodate friends and family from time to time. We want to be able to handled the boat by ourselves for when we want to be alone. One example we like to follow is the couple aboard Sea Venture. They are in my age group and seem to do very well. Another good point for a newer boat is the controls for positioning with bow and stern thrusters along with navigational software makes this even easier with today's electronics.
Don't get me wrong, we are not going from RV to a 60 foot new trawler in 3 years. We have already begun lining up charters with various boats for both pleasure and training both in the Caribbean for one season and in the Mediterranean for another. It seems you have to plan this a year or more ahead to reserve the best times so we're on it now.
Also to be clear, I have no experience with boats over 30 feet in salt or fresh water except for deep sea fishing off the coast of Florida from which I am from. But I'm a quick study and have owned small boats all my life and operated them in and off shore in FL. I've been caught is storms while in the Gulf stream in waves that seem like mountains dwarfing our 30 foot fishing boat. It's moments like that makes you wish you were in a 60 foot Nordhavn. A rogue wave nearly ended my life that day.
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Old 12-25-2019, 09:39 AM   #17
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Thank you all for the good advise.

My first idea was to start with a smaller and older boat such as a 40 foot - 15 year old one. I see lots of these for under 500K. This was my thought a year ago but after seeing the videos of repair and maintenance typical of usage, It seems to me that the newer the boat, the less that needs replaced. I know even a brand new boat has defects but generally true?
A smaller and less expensive boat is most likely where we will start out in. It just seems that every time we search the market, we end up with something around 50 foot or more to give us the comfort of full time live aboard.
We have been living full time in our 35 foot motor home and traveling the country. We consider this our land yacht and even though its apples and oranges to a boat; their both fruit. We are acclimating ourselves to living in this confined space. We love it and have no problem with spending the next 3 years RVing full time seeing the land side of the USA. We've learned the size vs comfort lesson. A large bathroom, kitchen and bed are important to us. We have already sold everything including our house to do this and so far have no regrets.
We want to have enough room to accommodate a captain and two crew which we may hire for difficult passages. Also to accommodate friends and family from time to time. We want to be able to handled the boat by ourselves for when we want to be alone. One example we like to follow is the couple aboard Sea Venture. They are in my age group and seem to do very well. Another good point for a newer boat is the controls for positioning with bow and stern thrusters along with navigational software makes this even easier with today's electronics.
Don't get me wrong, we are not going from RV to a 60 foot new trawler in 3 years. We have already begun lining up charters with various boats for both pleasure and training both in the Caribbean for one season and in the Mediterranean for another. It seems you have to plan this a year or more ahead to reserve the best times so we're on it now.
Also to be clear, I have no experience with boats over 30 feet in salt or fresh water except for deep sea fishing off the coast of Florida from which I am from. But I'm a quick study and have owned small boats all my life and operated them in and off shore in FL. I've been caught is storms while in the Gulf stream in waves that seem like mountains dwarfing our 30 foot fishing boat. It's moments like that makes you wish you were in a 60 foot Nordhavn. A rogue wave nearly ended my life that day.
You will not need a captain and crew for long. You may want crew for extended passages, but you will not need a captain for long.

If you're looking at 40-ish footers, the N43 is a nice improvement over the N40. Personally, I'd have zero concern a out buying one that is well maintained. Knowing how particular 80% of Nordhavn owners are, there's a decent chance a 10-year old boat is literally better than new. I watched a video recently of a super detail guy on a N68 who did a rudder post modification to beef up an already stout rudder - who does this?

I didn't catch what part of the country you're in now. But you mention being from Florida. Of that figures into your cruising, air draft matters. The ICW is fun but has occasional fixed bridge. Nordhavn tend to be unsuitable for that Great Loop due to air draft if that figures into your plans.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into a Nordhavn. They are a safe choice for many beginners with big dreams, albeit an over built one that is expensive to get into, expensive to own, but has decent resale. The OP sounds like the quintessential Nordhavn customer. Personally, like Sylo alluded to, there are some custom one-off boats that are fantastic, though would be much more difficult to exit when the time comes. My observation was many nordhavn owners bought their boat, cruised it extensively for about 2-years, then moved in to something else. Perhaps out of boating, perhaps upgrading to a larger boat.
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Old 12-25-2019, 09:42 AM   #18
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Whoa mama, the messages 10-15 pretty much covered everything.
Take the time to read and reread them 2 or 3 times.
Expand your read to the blogs suggested too.
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Old 12-25-2019, 09:52 AM   #19
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Spend some time doing coastal cruising to understand what life aboard is really like before you jump off on a several week passage.
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Old 12-25-2019, 09:55 AM   #20
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The last part for now is to consider annual budget. As the boat gets larger, so does the annual budget. Does 10 to 25% of purchase price sound reasonable? Adding good paid crew and all their expenses adds up quickly.

Ted
This is a very good point and one I have no knowledge of.
It also shapes the budget for the cost and length of the boat.
I'm expecting to pay out 200K per year for our fuel and operational cost.
So is that a realistic budget for a used 52 foot Trawler?
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