Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[greatpapabear]

For example, imagine you are in an 'emotional' sea and your satellite compass fails causing multiple warnings on your chart plotter, radar and autopilot. How easily can you change to your fluxgate without reference to any checklists you may have.

And just as important, when did you last check the fluxgate was operational?

The main point I'm making is that muck tends to happen when you are encountering nasty seas. If something fails you need the easiest possible method of changeover. Any failure will be a distraction, so you need to ensure it remains just a temporary interruption to 'business as usual' rather than becoming a major exercise.

I count anything more then a throwing a switch as a class 1 nuisance.

 

[Insequent]

The main point I'm making is that muck tends to happen when you are encountering nasty seas. If something fails you need the easiest possible method of changeover. Any failure will be a distraction, so you need to ensure it remains just a temporary interruption to 'business as usual' rather than becoming a major exercise.

I count anything more then a throwing a switch as a class 1 nuisance.

I run NN3D, but also have a Furuno NavPilot 700 autopilot. The AP setup allows for multiple sensors, including heading sensors, as input and you can change the priority order. If the 1st priority sensor goes offline the AP automatically switches to the 2nd priority sensor, and beeps to tell you that the input sensor has changed. All very simple.

 

[sunchaser]

I run NN3D, but also have a Furuno NavPilot 700 autopilot. The AP setup allows for multiple sensors, including heading sensors, as input and you can change the priority order. If the 1st priority sensor goes offline the AP automatically switches to the 2nd priority sensor, and beeps to tell you that the input sensor has changed. All very simple.

I have the same setup, NN3 and Furuno 711c AP with two heading sensors. Plus I have a Simrad AP 20 with its own heading sensor that is a backup, albeit utilizing the same AP pump. Each AP setup has its own rudder indicator.

Papa Bear, which AP is connected to your NN3? Does it go through a Hub101 utilizing a backbone? Our vessel utilizes a Maretron backbone. Our two NN3s and one Nobeltec use a Furuno GPS. Not connected to the backbone are another Nobeltec using a Simrad GPS and an older Raymarine plotter with yet a third. GPS.

 

[darkside]

I've suffered damage from lightning twice, once off St Tropez and the second waiting for a slot in the Panama Canal.
Only a few items damaged both times, GPS, solar panels, wind instruments.
Several other boats anchored nearby had more damage and we suspect a "sideswipe" rather than a direct hit on both occasions.
Steve we were on a sail multihull, where did your data come from and any idea why multihulls are more susceptible?

That said lightning strikes would be the least of my concerns for electronically controlled engines for expedition boats. I sell both types, in construction machinery, but far prefer to offer mechanical injection engines to customers in Fiji and similar countries where fuel quality isn't great.
Fuel delivery in Sri Lanka in 2002.

 

[Chrisjs]

I figure the most important instrument is the GPS, assuming you also have a paper chart. So, we always carried a spare hand-held GPS on board that was not connected to any other shipboard system, was kept in the OFF position, and stored in a metal (Faraday box) container. In the event of a lightning strike, I hoped this would suffice to get us to a safe location. I guess a spare hand held radio would also be handy. Never did have a lightning problem (except on shore, when an outside ground strike made my hair stand on end while eating dinner inside my home) though we were in some serious lightning storms. I would usually lower the radio antennas as a precaution, especially the SSB whip.

 

[cafesport]

We had had two proximity strikes last year which took out a gps antennae the day before we jumped offshore and another one last month which took out our air mar weather transducer. Never a direct hit and but we try to never let anything get close while underway either. Not sure about it but I think there is a greater risk at the dock or anchorage. If you look at the number of hours you run per year vs the number of hours sitting in harm’s way, most boaters have a greater than 95% chance of getting hit with the engines off and the boat secured. I think the bigger risk for these boats is sinking, fires or electrocution, something nordhavn is pretty good about in their designs.

A sister ship of ours (electronic controls and engine) got a direct hit last year while at anchor in the Bahamas. They were able to start their engine and return but I think their stabilizers were non operational. Another one that I know about had a direct hit at a dock but was also able to start his series 60 electronic engine but once again no stabilizers.

When we bought our boat the biggest concern was a loss of propulsion due to lightning. After going through the Lugger factory and witnessing how the ecm is potted and after talking to the engineers who have dealt with tractors on the plains taking direct hits, I don’t worry as much. A spare pre programmed ecm is a good option. I you have it you’ll never need it.

Btw papa bear try setting up something like this:


under the global data sources tab. A lost signal will alarm the pilot but the navnet should grab the data from the other sources. Then you can change the heading source on the app without all the beeping. Our sat compass has been remarkably stable. We have two auto pilots and have configured them for different sea states as well as multiple heading sources. If the sat compass were to go down it’s much quicker to just change the heading or position source there.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Steve, is that "multi-hulls" meaning sailing vessels or power only? Because if it's sailing (or sailing AND power), you're comparing trawler/motor-yacht with short/no mast with multihull sailing boats with, lets face it, cloud-penetrating aluminium lightning attractors - quite different beasts...

The statistic is for sailing multi hulls. I mentioned multi hulls only because it stands in stark contrast to trawlers.

I have not seen any strike stats on multihull power vessels.

 

[darkside]

I'll hazard a guess as to the reason why sailing multihulls feature so highly in the statistics is they anchor out more than any other vessel type.

They are both very expensive to keep in a marina and also a lot more comfortable than other vessels while at anchor.

They do have slightly taller masts than the monohull sail boat in general as the extra wetted surface means more drag in light winds.

 

[greatpapabear]

Steve, is that "multi-hulls" meaning sailing vessels or power only? Because if it's sailing (or sailing AND power), you're comparing trawler/motor-yacht with short/no mast with multihull sailing boats with, lets face it, cloud-penetrating aluminium lightning attractors - quite different beasts...

We were moored at Port la Foret on the west coast of France a couple of years ago. It's a large marina and home to the Vendee Globe yachts. Big yachts with tall masts, and we were berthed amongst them. Wanting to be with motor boats rather yachts, I soon changed my mind when thunder and lightning and a huge downpour thrashed around us one afternoon. Their masts were providing the finest multiple lightning conductor ever created for me...

 

[OldDan1943]

Has anyone considered or installed lightening protection on the high point of their boat/mast and run it to an underwater hull plate?
I have had a couple GPS antenna and a small mushroom sat radio mysterious 'fail', over the years. They were not the high points on my house roof.
There was no effect to the GPS nor the sat radio.
The boat is docked a bit north of Miami so storms and lightning are not unusual.
I think I have a number of GPS backups on board. 2 handheld VHF, a Sat phone with GPS read out and I think a "first edition" of a hand held GPS. And of course, I am well stocked with almost current paper charts too.
This year the AM/FM part of the sat radio went down so I replaced it.
I dont consider these losses to be monumental, more like a nuisance. So far I have been lucky, my auto pilot has been unaffected nor my main VHF radio. I did install a 2nd VHF antenna with the theory and understanding, if one GPS antenna goes down, the 2nd antenna magically takes over.
My only concern is what a strike might do to my engine's electronic system. "Hello Tow Boat?"
There is a lot to be said for writing down your position every 30 minutes or an hour plus SOG. At least it will give you a 'where I was' starting point.

 

[twistedtree]

Has anyone considered or installed lightening protection on the high point of their boat/mast and run it to an underwater hull plate?

Standard equipment on Nordhavns. I'm not sure how long ago it became so, but I think for at least the last 10 years, and maybe longer. Now how well it works is anyone's guess........ and nobody will ever know. It's kind of like life after death - believe whatever you want.

 

[Kapn]

I know of a boat that was struck by lightning on the bow pulpit. It hit the wooden jack staff with the burgee flying. Not the highest part of the boat, not the most conducive, and in a marina surrounded by sail boats. It totally didn’t make sense based on what everyone thinks about lightning. The systems on board had all kinds of strange flukes, some working partially, others complete failures and some not effected at all. Took a few months to get things back to normal and insurance helped a lot from what I was told.

 

[Mako]

The systems on board had all kinds of strange flukes, some working partially, others complete failures and some not effected at all.

Now Imagine that happening to you in some very remote location. You’re down in Patagonia or halfway across the ocean.

What’s your contingency plan? That’s a tough one, especially when it comes to electronic engines. What does a typical set of ECU and sensors and support equipment cost? $10k?

 

[greatpapabear]

I know of a boat that was struck by lightning on the bow pulpit. It hit the wooden jack staff with the burgee flying. Not the highest part of the boat, not the most conducive, and in a marina surrounded by sail boats. It totally didn’t make sense based on what everyone thinks about lightning. The systems on board had all kinds of strange flukes, some working partially, others complete failures and some not effected at all. Took a few months to get things back to normal and insurance helped a lot from what I was told.

Having been struck or even influenced by lightning, you don't know how enfeebled some components may have become leading to later failure.

 

[greatpapabear]

Btw papa bear try setting up something like this:
View attachment 98337

under the global data sources tab. A lost signal will alarm the pilot but the navnet should grab the data from the other sources. Then you can change the heading source on the app without all the beeping. Our sat compass has been remarkably stable. We have two auto pilots and have configured them for different sea states as well as multiple heading sources. If the sat compass were to go down it’s much quicker to just change the heading or position source there.

Thanks for the suggestion. I am in comms with my installer about all this and hopefully we will be able to work something out. At the moment, the nav kit includes:

Furuno NN3D chartplotter
Simrad AP70 autopilot
Furuno PG500 fluxgate compass
Furuno GPS 33 standby GPS
Furuno 2117 BB radar c/w 6' 6" scanner
FLIR M400 thermal imaging camera
Airmar DTS800 log (water speed) via Actisense 2000/183 to feed the radar

 

[cafesport]

So it sounds like you don’t have a sat compass. The failure might be the fluxgate compass which isn’t that unusual if it’s installed near something that can change it’s surrounding magnetic field.

 

[greatpapabear]

So it sounds like you don’t have a sat compass. The failure might be the fluxgate compass which isn’t that unusual if it’s installed near something that can change it’s surrounding magnetic field.

Oops. Apologies. I forgot to add a Furuno ST50 sat compass.

 

[bogranjac1]

Thread drifting ?

I was quite enjoying the discussion that was appropriate to the thread title

 

[OldDan1943]

Gentle Smile
We were discussing 4 brands of equally capable boats and have concluded the choice is an individual preference perhaps based upon the profile of the boat.

We can all dream of crossing the big ponds but few of us will do it. I was getting ready leave the east coast of FL onto Brownsville TX and then down the east coast of Mexico. Fate got in the way and the boat was destroyed in the boat yard.
I decided maybe ICW and coastal cruising was perhaps a more realistic expectation on my part.
For those who still have the trans-ocean crossing, I wish you great success. Go visit the 4 brands of boat prior to your decision. For the rest of us, we shall remain close to shore with maybe some trips to the Bahamas.

 

[Magneto]

Carol and I started this thread without knowledge of the brands of boats in the title. We have learned from owners and captains of these boats very quickly. All three boats, and I now include the FPB’s, are designed and built for different purposes. There have been many captains experienced with each or all 4 of these boats who have offered extremely helpful knowledge of the differences, capabilities, cost, maintenance, comfort, etc. of each of these boats. The merits of all 4 boat types have been properly defended and it became clear very quickly that none of these boat are superior to one another. The real question is what boat is best suited for the needs of the owner.

We have received a lot of good advice on purchasing and the use of consultants and surveyors. Through PM’s we have acquired a lot of good contacts. Some who have already helped us find the right way of approaching our goals. You have shown us that we are not alone in boldly purchasing, training and crossing oceans in 70 tons of a moving home. You have shown us that the boat needs to be built around our needs, experience, expense and long term goals. We have examined and reexamined our desires and goals during the growth of this thread and if anything, it has reinforced our resolve to cross oceans.

Carol and I read every night the Voyage of Egret’s Captains Log starting in September of 2006 through 2015. Very good read and very good detail of an adventure. They are also an example of the type of people we are. The path they laid out and recorded in great detail is just one example of what we hope to accomplish. There are other examples we follow on various YouTube channels such as:

MV Freedom – Shawn & Elizabeth
MS Ata Marie – Dougal & Jen
MV Dirona – James & Jennifer
MV Mermaid Monster – Brooke & Braden

These are just a few good examples of normal (?) people doing extraordinary things. We like to think we are just as (ab)normal as they are. We too share the same boldness of adventure at sea in our hearts. But everyone has to ask themselves what is your desire, your passion, what are your goals and comfort levels? What is your budget? Anyone reading this thread and following down this path will have to decide what’s best for them. Any of these boats are the perfect choice for a particular purpose with consideration to age and boat length. We have decided on a Nordhavn ranging from 52 to 63 feet. That fits our needs. Now it’s off to the boat shows. We hope to see you there.


Greatness is not in where we stand,
but in what direction we are moving.
We must sail sometimes with the wind
and sometimes against it -
but sail we must,
and not drift, nor lie at anchor.

- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

 

[twistedtree]

If this thread, and TF in general got you ramped up on different boats, what matters to you, and what boats might be good fit, then Mission Accomplished

 

[jrs1958]

Nordhavn draws too much for east coast FL keys Bahamas etc. Try to get a boat that doesn't draw over 5'. You get out in the gulf stream and might change your mind about the world. You can't even use the intercoastal waterway in a 70' Nordhavn. Very impractical IMO. You could be stuck in Port because of the weather when the intercoastal would still be fine.

 

[jrs1958]

If you are asking this question how much boating have you done? If very little try the Bahamas and the gulf stream in a 20knot n wind and then see if circumnavigation is for you.

 

[greatpapabear]

I was quite enjoying the discussion that was appropriate to the thread title

I suspect I was the villain in thread drift. In my defense, I thought it was a reasonable drift as follows:

From "Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogan" to "Single vs Twin engine & Redundancy" to "Electronics & Redundancy" to some specific makes of electronics as in the original thread re boat makes.

Nuff said?

 

[OldDan1943]

LOL Think about it, if I were to buy one of the top 4 boats, discussed here, I would disappoint a bunch of people SMILE

Define your 'mission', pick the boat with a draft to satisfy your mission. The rest, fall in line.

 

[Magneto]

I suspect I was the villain in thread drift. In my defense, I thought it was a reasonable drift as follows:

From "Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogan" to "Single vs Twin engine & Redundancy" to "Electronics & Redundancy" to some specific makes of electronics as in the original thread re boat makes.

Nuff said?

IMHO, I don’t think that is a thread drift subject. The original idea was to question the differences between these boats and discuss the purpose of these differences. The discussions have been wide-ranged over these from hull material to redundant systems. The difference between all 4 of these boats (including the FPB’s), invite discussions in redundancy, twin vs single, speed vs slow, air draft, water draft, cost, safety and support. I encourage more on any of these subjects. I have learned a lot from these discussions.

It seems there are several types of owners of these boats.
• River, lock hoping, loop cruising.
• Marina Queens
• Coastal Cruising
• Ocean Crossing

Each owner seems to have a mixture of various degrees of more than one of these categories.
I personally fall into the last two categories. I can’t see a boat built to be perfect for all 4. Even a Swiss Army knife is not perfect for any one function.

 

[PointDoc]

New to Forum and have same questions as Magneto

Hello,

My wife and I are preparing to retire and travel. Have considered rv'ing, but wish to do more! Our sailing resume is short, but doing our work to prepare for this journey.


Desire is favoring coastal travel (home is the Seattle area), but would not like to be restricted to the point that we could not travel worldly (shipping vessel would be an option).

My list is as follows: KK, Nordhavn and Diesel Duck; Fleming, OR, Offshore, Horizon, Hampton; Shannon 52 RDP and N56.



I like the KK in particular for the hull shape;

I wonder if the hull shape contributed to this article? Or maybe another way to ask is would a different hull shape contributed to a different topic write-up?

Nordy knocked down to 69°

Nordhavn 52, Dirona, is mostly having a very enjoyable time on their travels. James and Jennifer came from the PNW and have a very well written and photo-documented blog at MV Dirona Recent Locations Travel Log Map So, a few days ago with a 25-30 kn southerly blowing they were at the east end...

www.trawlerforum.com

As many times I go through my list and adjust for the given priorities, the Shannon 52 RDP remains;

As of today KK, Fleming, Shannon 52RDP and possibly the N62 are top of my list. This list is fluid depending on the depth of my search and priority order. The reason for KK is the hull shape, economy and living quarters, resale. Fleming is the engineering, redundancies, history, resale, living quarters are marginal when compared to a Nordhavn/KK, but acceptable, I also favor the low profile and lower cg. Shannon is having sails as an option and economy, also I find a sailboat attractive, dual engines, U.S. built, quality, but living arrangements above/below is very marginal. N63 whats not to like about this vessel other than it is dated and free space is marginal in the engine area, also I found the passage ways and staircase narrow.


If a comment/observation I have made does not seem reasonable, please bear with me as I go through this journey and any thoughts will be read repeatedly and appreciated!




~PD

 

[Amadeus]

PointDoc, in my view the first decision is whether or not you want to seriously consider a sailboat. The list of appropriate sailing vessels is long and distinguished. However, when most of us reach retirement age we realize that the sheer physical work of sailing offshore, along with the exposure to the elements, is something that we want to avoid. The sails on the Shannon 52 are big and powerful and there is a lot of stress on the rig. No matter the level of automation, I would worry about operating the boat under sail if I were shorthanded, and these days I just cruise with my wife. In addition, there is a very significant learning curve to being able to safely go offshore internationally in a sailboat. You have to ask yourself if you are up for it. And is your wife?

When I first met my wife she had just finished sailing around the world. She was also a recent two time U.S. National Champion in crew, rowing in women's eights. She could benchpress 165 lbs and was a 6' tall blonde Amazon. With her aboard a sailboat, any offshore passage was possible, and we did more than our share. Fast forward 33 years. We've made the full time switch to power and we love it. I wouldn't go back to sailing and I don't miss it.

There's an FPB 64 for sale in Australia amd it is one of the ultimate offshore passagemakers. Buy it and sail back to the U.S. through the South Pacific. That's the perfect boat for long distance passagmaking and in my mind the sailing in the South Pacific can't be beat. The fine entry and resistance to pitch of the FPB separates it from all the KKs, Nordhavns and Flemings, all of which travel up and down almost as much as they go forward.

Good luck!

 

[twistedtree]

Hello,

My wife and I are preparing to retire and travel. Have considered rv'ing, but wish to do more! Our sailing resume is short, but doing our work to prepare for this journey.


Desire is favoring coastal travel (home is the Seattle area), but would not like to be restricted to the point that we could not travel worldly (shipping vessel would be an option).

My list is as follows: KK, Nordhavn and Diesel Duck; Fleming, OR, Offshore, Horizon, Hampton; Shannon 52 RDP and N56.



I like the KK in particular for the hull shape;

I wonder if the hull shape contributed to this article? Or maybe another way to ask is would a different hull shape contributed to a different topic write-up?

Nordy knocked down to 69°

Nordhavn 52, Dirona, is mostly having a very enjoyable time on their travels. James and Jennifer came from the PNW and have a very well written and photo-documented blog at MV Dirona Recent Locations Travel Log Map So, a few days ago with a 25-30 kn southerly blowing they were at the east end...

www.trawlerforum.com

As many times I go through my list and adjust for the given priorities, the Shannon 52 RDP remains;

As of today KK, Fleming, Shannon 52RDP and possibly the N62 are top of my list. This list is fluid depending on the depth of my search and priority order. The reason for KK is the hull shape, economy and living quarters, resale. Fleming is the engineering, redundancies, history, resale, living quarters are marginal when compared to a Nordhavn/KK, but acceptable, I also favor the low profile and lower cg. Shannon is having sails as an option and economy, also I find a sailboat attractive, dual engines, U.S. built, quality, but living arrangements above/below is very marginal. N63 whats not to like about this vessel other than it is dated and free space is marginal in the engine area, also I found the passage ways and staircase narrow.


If a comment/observation I have made does not seem reasonable, please bear with me as I go through this journey and any thoughts will be read repeatedly and appreciated!




~PD

When you say N56, N62, and N63, what boats are you referring to? I could guess, but better not to .


As for hull shape, people will argue back and forth forever on that one. The so-called wine-glass stern is a carry over from sail boats, and does give less for a following sea to grab onto. But the rest of the hull, keel, and particularly rudder size play a huge role too. I think it's just too simplistic to say a wine glass is better.


As you have probably noticed, the majority of power boats have moved to squared-off sterns. The benefit is less pitching compared to a wine glass. So like all things boat, you are always trading things off. You also pick up a little more interior volume with a squared off stern.


Another question to ask yourself is if a wine glass stern was all good and no bad, wouldn't all boats be built that way? Why is it than virtually none are in modern designs?


All that said, I think the most important thing is that whatever boat you pick makes you happy, so whatever that is, go for it.

 

[Simi 60]

.


As you have probably noticed, the majority of power boats have moved to squared-off sterns. The benefit is less pitching compared to a wine glass. So like all things boat, you are always trading things off. You also pick up a little more interior volume with a squared off stern.


.

Majority of commercial fishing trawlers have squared off sterns as well and they are often out in some pretty snotty weather.

Ease of access in and out of vessel is vastly improved as well.
It was a major consideration with ours, easy access to cockpit when loading supplies.

Its a shame, I have seen some potentially great vessels over the years, instantly rejected by us as soon as we saw the back bits.

Add: re reading the comment and looking at the KK video I see you are taking more the underwater shape than the actual stern/transom shape.

Ours is somewhat in between, not wine glass but far from flat.