Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[twistedtree]

Which are also built in China, nowadays.
And anyone who think that this doesn't matter, probably never compared a Taiwanese N'havn with a Chinese one.

They are actually made in both places, but two different yards, depending on which model you are building.

 

[twistedtree]

I have found not all Nordhavns to be single engine. I found this N60 built in 2003, launched in 2012. Twin screws. Boat name; Shogun. Currently in Japan. Why is the launch date so far from the build date?

It will most likely be gone when we are ready to buy. I only bring it up because of the twin engines. It's a lot of boat for 1.5 mil.

And thank you Karen. We will most definitely spend a lot of time cruising on other peoples boats and our charters before purchasing.

Check out:

https://nordhavn-yachts.com/nordhav...emList&cHash=5e198180ab2b006dbb7f75655bb19270

There are quite a few twin engine Nordhavns, as well as wet exhaust. Both are probably a minority, but they are definitely out there.


Based on that listing it looks like the engines were built in 2003. They might have been stock that was sitting around for a while, or it could be a typo. Wouldn't be the first incorrect piece of info in a listing. If you were serious about the boat, a quick check of the serial numbers would confirm. But I also don't think it matters.

 

[twistedtree]

This past summer a good friend had the non operating wing engine prop on his N55 damaged by ice. The boat needed to be hauled to repair. There is never a shortage of gotcha moments.

Yup, there is always something that will disable a wing, and always something that will disable twins. There is an element of boating that is a roll of the dice. With twins you will win some rolls and lose other, and vice versa with a main+wing. But I think in the end your odds are the same.

 

[Magneto]

In the long run it is not a deal breaker for me about twin’s vs single. It is more important for the boat to be configured to my needs and usage. Either prop config works for long distance cruising. So finding a boat that meets 90 % of our needs, would be purchased on that and not the twin/single thing.

I think a deal breaker would be the master suite being in the bow. I’ve seen both configurations with Nordhavn and with one on watch and one in the bed, it needs to be comfortable sleeping while underway. Carpet can be removed. The crane can be upgraded. I don’t want to gut the rooms.

 

[twistedtree]

BTW, you have received lots of advice about getting into boating incrementally, and there is a lot of logic behind that advice. It's certainly how we got into cruising vs small run abouts.


That said, there a number of examples of couple who have plunged straight into the deep end, and pulled it off. Now plenty fail, but lots who succeed. I always find it very impressive. So don't let people convince you to go slower (or faster) than your own pace.

 

[syjos]

BTW, you have received lots of advice about getting into boating incrementally, and there is a lot of logic behind that advice. It's certainly how we got into cruising vs small run abouts.


That said, there a number of examples of couple who have plunged straight into the deep end, and pulled it off. Now plenty fail, but lots who succeed. I always find it very impressive. So don't let people convince you to go slower (or faster) than your own pace.

Getting into boating incrementally is ok if young.

But the OP is not young so he is speeding up the learning process.

He has the resources to "buy" experience via teaching captain.

 

[hollywood8118]

In the long run it is not a deal breaker for me about twin’s vs single. It is more important for the boat to be configured to my needs and usage. Either prop config works for long distance cruising. So finding a boat that meets 90 % of our needs, would be purchased on that and not the twin/single thing.

I think a deal breaker would be the master suite being in the bow. I’ve seen both configurations with Nordhavn and with one on watch and one in the bed, it needs to be comfortable sleeping while underway. Carpet can be removed. The crane can be upgraded. I don’t want to gut the rooms.

I am in the opposite camp, I prefer a bow cabin for the breeze at anchor, the N57 I delivered had the midship owners cabin and it was much cooler in the forward cabin in climates that didn't require the AC to be ran. And I did use the forward cabin underway all the way from San Diego to Panama. Got air a few times in pretty lumpy weather off of Mag Bay and moved to the settee in the aft end of the salon ( best place to sleep underway IMHO )



On all the boats I have taken offshore the best places to sleep are often places you wouldn't sleep in port.. or at anchor. Access to the main deck and a comfortable place to wedge into are typically more important and a berth that is open and great when the boat is at rest can be hard to get good rest if your sleeping with the worry of getting pitched.

I would prefer the Main and a wing vs twins for a passagemaker. The position of wing engines are aft and it usually allows better access to both motors.


To the O.P,
The best value boat is a factor of purchase price,cost of financing or lost income of money in boat vs investments, operating cost, maintenance, length of time to sell and final selling price. Don't be fixated on the MPG of LWLL boats as the berthing costs vs space makes them costly for berthing vs decked boats like a Nordhavn, and boats typically spend more time tied to shore than at sea.

As all members here know I am a Nordhavn fan and I have intimate knowledge of a number of the models, I believe most of them on the used market are a represent good value if bought already equipped the way you want your boat equipped. Most of the owners take real pride in their boats and maintain them to high standards. As someone previously mentioned I would buy a used over a new one to not have to deal with all the issues related to a new yacht vs one that has had all the bugs worked out.

HOLLYWOOD

 

[Whodgins]

Magneto, et al, first let me wish all of you a VERY Happy New Year and new decade! Sorry to have not been able to join in sooner but Wow! what a great way to start my first day of 2020 with this read.

Not sure I have much to add to the many other great comments from some of the truly great TF contributors who have already added their sage advise but perhaps I can add a few other perspectives that would seem relative to your OP Magneto and to many of the other topics touched on here already. I do suffer from a severe case of neverasentencewhenaparagraphwilldo syndrome or as some friends refer to it I am “brevity challenged” but I will do my best to keep this as short as possible.

Having just read through what I find to be one of the best TF threads I’ve read in some time I will go back and respond separately to a few of the other comments in this thread which referenced me and the new XPM78-01 mv Möbius which my wife and I are building here in Antalya Turkey with Naval Yachts. For those interested in our boat and the build project I maintain a blog at Mobius.World with weekly progress updates on the design and build of our 24m/78’ all aluminium eXtreme eXploration Passage Maker so I won’t delve into that here. I will say that our priorities in designing and now building this boat are Safety, Efficiency, Comfort and Low Maintenance and we factor all four of these into most every decision we make.

To put my comments into perspective and better keep them in context let me start with a bit of info and background on my wife, myself, our cruising background and our current situation with the new boat we are now building. Christine and I are former single handed sailors until I left a comment on one of her blog postings which ignited a spectacular spiral of Emails, Skype calls and twitterpation. At the time Christine was on her sailboat in the Caribbean and I was on mine in Fiji so we decided to meet in person almost six years ago today and had our “first date” be a very eventful 3000nm sail from Fiji to Majuro. We figured that there were likely only two outcomes from such a first date; either one of us would throw the other off the boat on the passage or we’d never be single again. I’m delighted to let you know the latter happened and I can attest to the fact that finding true love in your mid 60’s is awemazing! We have now been married for five years and between us we have 3 children, 3 grandchildren and 2 dogs, all of whom we hope to soon be hosting on our new boat once we launch in the next few months.

Moving on to more pertinent and relevant information. While we have only done a few passages on power boats, which is perhaps the biggest reason for switching over to power now, we do have a reasonable amount of sailing experience with over 100k miles between us and Christine has had her 100 Ton Captains license since she was in her mid twenties. Fortunately for us we both LOVE long passages and have made more of them than we can count and done multiple crossings of every ocean except the Indian so far and intend to cross that and many more as soon as we are back out exploring this awesome planet’s waters again later this year.

Until we sold our previous boat, a 52’ Bruce Roberts designed steel sailboat and moved ashore here in Antalya to build our new boat our boats were our full time homes and we will move aboard Möbius shortly after we launch and pick up where we left off sailing the world. Our history and future intent is to most often be the only boat in the each bay we are in so we spend most of our time in extremely remote parts of the world be they uninhabited tropical islands or polar ice flows and have designed and built Möbius accordingly. Therefore over engineered, over built and overly redundant is our norm. We are almost always on anchor other than to be hauled out every few years for bottom paint or other larger maintenance items. We therefore set up all our boats for eXtreme self reliance and the assumption that we have no access to shore power or any other land based assistance.

As several others have mentioned here already speed does matter. Most importantly speed adds a significant safety factor to your passages. The ability to either get out of the way of bad weather or stay with the good or get where you are going sooner, dramatically increases the degree of safety of your boat. In our case, the ability to AVERAGE 10+ knots on multi week long passages and thus do 250 mile days does indeed “change everything” for us as this is double what we have averaged in our past decades of sailing AND is then multiplied by the MUCH larger weather windows when have in a power boat compared to sail. This speed therefore equally expands the range and number of experiences available for us to chose from.

Sounds like you are already reading and watching the other blogs and YouTube channels which have been mentioned here, as do we, and I would just add my vote to continue to do what you are already doing by reading and researching everything you can. As you’ve discovered TF and indeed the world is filled with incredible teachers, we just need to learn how to ask and to find them. It certainly confirms my long held belief that “When the learner is ready, the teacher will appear”. I called my previous boat “Learnativity” because I love learning and I thought that there would be lots of that if I were to go sailing around the world singlehanded. Trust me, she lived up to her name and I become a more voracious researcher and learner every day. I mention it here not only for its importance but to suggest that anyone who does NOT love the challenge of learning more about more things than ever imagined, then I’m not sure sailing the world, by sail or power, would be a good choice. Based on your comments and questions here already it is obvious you do love this type of learning and the resultant solutions you are able to come up with for each challenge as they come along and this bodes very well for the likelihood that you and your wife will take to living aboard and sailing the world like a duck to water.

A few final comments and recommendations I have to offer are:

Listen and learn from all the first hand expertise you have already received in this thread alone and others in TF and other venues BUT be sure that all the decisions you make are based on what is best for YOU as a couple and what fits you both the best. There is no such thing as the “best boat” until you complete the thought with “for me”. Even then it will only be “best for you” at a given point in time and until you decide to go after your next boat. Prior to even beginning the design process, Christine and I referred to this as Project Goldilocks, and still do, because our aim is to design and build the boat that is just right, just for us.

Do whatever you need to do to GO NOW. GO charter those boats on your short list. GO on passages or any amount of on the water experiences with anyone who will take you along. GO find and buy the boat that is calling your names the loudest. GO on that first passage and never look back. I’m in the camp that would advise you to buy the boat that you think fits you both the best NOW. If it turns out that after a few years on that boat you decide you want something else then cross that bridge when you get to it. I don’t recommend a “starter boat” and would second the others here who have recommended similarly that the amount of experience you will gain learning THAT boat will IMO, far outweigh any advantages of starting smaller and then having to unlearn and relearn a whole new boat in a few years.

We are down to the last few months before we launch this first XPM so we are close to being consumed 24/7 with the build and in the shipyard six days a week and home for the seventh just long enough to write those weekly blog posts so I don’t get much time for anything else these days. However, I will do my best to stay tuned into TF and this thread in particular and add any additional comments or answer any questions here that you or others may have.

If it would happen to fit your travel plans, I would also extend a sincere offer to you or anyone else here on TF to come for a visit to Naval Yachts in the Antalya Free Zone to see and inspect XPM78-01 Möbius for yourself. I’d be glad to make time to give you a guided tour and answer questions as to why we have designed and built the way we have. For those who have not been, Turkey is a truly wonderful country and her food, sights and people will exceed your expectations and would make this so much more than “just” a visit to see Project Goldilocks in person.

Lastly for now let me again thank you Magneto for starting this thread and thank all of you who have contributed to creating a thread that is so densely packed with hard earned knowledge and wisdom. If this is how my first day of 2020 begins I can’t wait for tomorrow and getting back to a life at sea as soon as possible.

Here is to making 2020 be the best year yet for us all.

-Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

I am in the opposite camp, I prefer a bow cabin for the breeze at anchor, the N57 I delivered had the midship owners cabin and it was much cooler in the forward cabin in climates that didn't require the AC to be ran. And I did use the forward cabin underway all the way from San Diego to Panama. Got air a few times in pretty lumpy weather off of Mag Bay and moved to the settee in the aft end of the salon ( best place to sleep underway IMHO )



On all the boats I have taken offshore the best places to sleep are often places you wouldn't sleep in port.. or at anchor. Access to the main deck and a comfortable place to wedge into are typically more important and a berth that is open and great when the boat is at rest can be hard to get good rest if your sleeping with the worry of getting pitched.

I would prefer the Main and a wing vs twins for a passagemaker. The position of wing engines are aft and it usually allows better access to both motors.


To the O.P,
The best value boat is a factor of purchase price,cost of financing or lost income of money in boat vs investments, operating cost, maintenance, length of time to sell and final selling price. Don't be fixated on the MPG of LWLL boats as the berthing costs vs space makes them costly for berthing vs decked boats like a Nordhavn, and boats typically spend more time tied to shore than at sea.

As all members here know I am a Nordhavn fan and I have intimate knowledge of a number of the models, I believe most of them on the used market are a represent good value if bought already equipped the way you want your boat equipped. Most of the owners take real pride in their boats and maintain them to high standards. As someone previously mentioned I would buy a used over a new one to not have to deal with all the issues related to a new yacht vs one that has had all the bugs worked out.

HOLLYWOOD

I am in the same camp with Hollywood with the preference for a forward master cabin. Primary reason is one of the ones stated by Hollywood and others which is the great ventilation you get through the hatches and/or dorade vents on the typically much more open foredeck. We've designed our new boat with a cabin up front although the first 4 meters out of 24 overall is forepeak and then the distance to where our heads will be is another 4 meters back so arguably closer to midships than the bow which is a large factor behind this design.

So for us a forward master cabin that maximises natural ventilation is a feature not a bug.

 

[grandbanksbayfield]

I go with they guys who suggest first trying a smaller boat for coastal stuff. Get a GB42 and bring it up to the Great Lakes, especially Lake Superior, and do a lot of crossings and think it over. Nordhavns are the real ticket if you have to go big right now. A class five boat can stand up to 50 knots sustained wind and 13-foot waves. Ever think about a sailboat? They are inherently more seaworthy and have just one engine.

 

[sunchaser]

Magneto
Are you confused yet? So many options have been presented on this thread with personal preferences not so subtly woven in.

For instance, master forward which is non desirable for many and with AC a non issue from the ventilation standpoint. Speaking of ventilation, in wet damp muggy weather a dehumidified boat is a real plus for many.

Regarding boat speed; unattainable above 7.5 - 8.0 knots for many blue water cruisers due to hull design and skyrocketing fuel burn as one approaches hull speed. Thus the advantage of a long waterline and/or hull design to allow plus 9 knots efficiently and routinely.

Then the oft mentioned subject are you truly comfortable with long distance ocean voyages? Few are for oh so many reasons. This issue has to be number one in my mind. As Wayne so ably described, he and his new bride had the open ocean sailing chops. This background is shared by many who gravitate to passage makers.

So my singular advice is to buy a vessel that will for sure re-sell quickly for a fair price. This eliminates virtually all except those on your starter list. Another thought, did you ever wonder why so many very recently built Nordhavns are on the market? My four answers found when N shopping: owners fulfilling bucket list, owners moving up, owners getting old or owners not accepting the rigorous "gone a long time" lifestyle. We would have fallen prey to 3 of the 4.

Enjoy the hunt and the eventual rigors even more.

 

[Whodgins]

you might check out LRC 58 at
https://www.artnautica.com/designs/long-range-cruiser-58
and
Dickey Boats Art Nautica LRC 58 built in New Zealand | Dickey Boats

I too would recommend you checking out the Artnautica sites, there is also artnautica.eu, and the work of Dennis Harjamaa on these LRC's.

FYI, Dennis is our Naval Architect for our XPM78-01 mv Möbius which we are finishing the build of with Naval Yachts in Antalya Turkey. Dennis was the "just right, just for us" NA our Project Goldilocks boat. It took us over a year to find a NA who would work WTH us rather than "for us". Dennis was the perfect fit for we two experienced sailors who knew boats and passage making well, knew what we wanted in our "just right" boat in great detail and needed someone who would work with us to turn all that into a well designed boat, 2D drawings, 3D model and then CNC cut files.

It certainly helped that Dennis had just designed the very first LRC58 AND then went on to take time off to build the first one for himself almost entirely single handed and then move aboard with his partner and it has been their full time home ever since.

We cannot say enough about how great our 2+ year experience with Dennis has been nor recommend him any higher. His "drawing board" is pretty full these days as he is designing new versions of the LRC and XPM of different sizes for several new clients, but I'm sure he would welcome any inquiries and be able to answer questions if you were interested in these type of all aluminium long range passage makers.

 

[billdomb]

Off topic, but I see you're running a Hatteras 63 that looks very much like our Vantare 64. Would love to communicate outside of the group about your boat if you wouldn't mind. Can tag me at wmdomb@verizon.net.

bill domb
m/y Activated Eau

 

[twistedtree]

We have had both forward and mid ship master staterooms. Our in-progress boat is a forward stateroom.


Here's our take on the tradeoffs:


- Less movement in heavier seas with mid ship. In milder seas it doesn't really matter.
- Less wave slap at anchor with mid ship, if you have a chined hull.
- Natural ventilation is generally a lot better with forward.
- Natural light is generally better with a forward.

We opted for forward for better ventilation and light because we will enjoy that 90% of the time. When/if sea state makes the forward stateroom uncomfortable, we will just move to the salon, and expect that to be way less than 10% of the time.

 

[billdomb]

We intend to cross both and beyond. This will be my last voyage and I want to explore every port, passage and country my ship will take me..

Please keep us all posted on your continued thought process and progress!

 

[Magneto]

Wow! That was well said Wayne and thank all of you for your posts. We read and sometimes re-read all of the posts here. Including the private messages. Forgive me if I don’t reply or thank everyone. We approach this goal with an open mind due to our lack of experience so consider us an empty glass on this subject. But for the last week, there has been a decent amount of rum in it.

A little about us;

I am 60 years old and healthy. In 4 years I hope to be healthier (New Years resolution). My wife Carol is a cancer survivor and doing great. Her sister not so well and that has us worried about Carol’s future. I have traveled the world for my business. She has not and I want to do this with her while we are both capable of doing it. We both love boating, fishing and traveling and have limited experience with large boats which does make us candidates for a Nordhavn as our first boat. But again, we are keeping an open mind and 4 years out, things can change. I can promise you that the loop does not interest us. I’ve spent plenty of time on boats in intercostal and rivers. Where some consider ocean passage boring, I feel the same about the loop.

Carol and I are adventurers and explorers. We have proven that to each other time and time again. We are full time in our RV and happiest when we are moving. We pride ourselves on the ability to pull up camp and be on the road in under an hour. Half an hour if demanded. 10 minutes in an emergency. We are also preppers. Not the ambitious ones that have bomb shelters in the back yard, just the type who believe in being prepared for worst case situations. I’ve been through many hurricanes on land and been close to drowning at sea. I have a great respect for nature and know what she can do. I am certified in Red Cross First Aid and CPR/AED just to aid us in our land travels. We are willing to take any and all courses to aid us in our journey at sea.

I have achieved the finances to jump right into one of these boats we talk about but plan on spending a couple of seasons on charters and friend’s boats at sea before we purchase. This is a big jump-over compared to those of you who are on your 3rd or 4th boat of this class. I’ve only had a 24 foot Pearson sailboat and a 30-foot fishing boat as my largest boat. That’s why I don’t like the forward berth at sea but it makes sense to use all of your berths depending on where you’re at. Good advice. I don’t know if I will get to my 3rd or 4th boat. So I want to make the best decision I can on our 1st. Costal cruiser? Smaller boat first? It may happen. In 2024 if we find that to be our direction, so be it. There is also a reason to get a utility boat to hold a toy we want. We may search for an old utility / research vessel that we can fix up and keep her in the Caribbean. That way we can get our long term sea legs and own a boat to carry a large payload. Then have a better certainty of our next boat.

We have the 4 years to get it right. And this thread makes us smarter every day.
Happy New Year

 

[billdomb]

I second the FPB series. Also read Passagemaking Under Power.

https://setsail.com/fpb-64/

Which FPB series?

Thanks.

 

[Whodgins]

I might give an impression of being very industrial from the outside but its full of comfort inside. with lots of redundancy. The great thing about the raw ali finish outside is you dont have to spend your whole life polishing it. I have been around the world in one of these 64's.

+1 for Peter's sentiments about these more "industrial" looking boats like the FPB and XPM series boats. Peter knows of what he speaks re FPB's better than almost anyone having been so intimately involved in their design, evolution and use.

They are definately long, lean and mean looking on the outside but trust me, they are all comfort and luxury on the inside. We designed ours with this duality or two different sides of the same coin very much in mind and love the contrast between the interior and exterior both of which are very much designed and built to match their respective benefits with their very different conditions. Tough, "don't mess with me" and super low maintenance on the outside where those are all big plusses, and then voluminous, safe, gorgeous and super comfy as you step inside.

So this book's cover is quite deceiving and it is definately work a closer look both inside and out. You'll be surprised by what you find when you do.

And you can do quite a bit of "looking" at these boats by spending some time on the SetSail.com and Mobius.World sites. Just be warned that you don't want to go to either if you are into such "boat porn" and don't have a few hours to spare!

 

[Magneto]

I have to admit, if I knew about the FPB and XPM boats before I named this thread, I would have replaced the Fleming's with these. They are now on our radar. A three week charter on Grey Wolf in Scotland is very tempting.

 

[Whodgins]

Which FPB series?

Thanks.

For those who have not seen it yet and are curious about the whole amazing FPB series, Steve recently put together THIS extremely thorough and complete history of how these boats began and how they evolved.

Great way to start your new year reading this IMHO, just be sure to grab a comfy chair and your favorite beverage before you start as it will take you some time to get through and much more to digest.

While you are looking around the SetSail site you will also find several other recent posts from Steve in the past few months which are similarly comprehensive overviews of many other aspects of these amazing boats.

 

[cardude01]

Nothing to add, other than to say I love this thread!

 

[Whodgins]

I have to admit, if I knew about the FPB and XPM boats before I named this thread, I would have replaced the Fleming's with these. They are now on our radar.

Not to worry, as you are discovering quickly, there is an amazing abundance of blogs, articles, YouTube channels to become aware of let alone read and follow.

Whether you and your wife decide that these FPB/XPM style of boats and esthetics calls your name, I think you'll find that there is a LOT of super valuable information to be gained for anyone considering ocean crossing and long range passage making or trawler style boats and lifestyle, irrespective of what specific type and brand of boat you end up with.

To me, it is all about "fit"; matching YOUR preferences and use case conditions with the boat that has been designed and built for those same use case criteria.

Spending some time on SetSail will help you understand the use case scenarios which the FPB's were very specifically designed for and if you are interested you can read over THIS Mobius.World posting I wrote to outline our use case and design criteria for our XPM.

You will quickly see that the use cases for both are VERY similar and hence no surprise that they tend to look similar at first, though there are significant differences once you dig in and become more familiar with them. Similar to the way "all trawlers look the same" when you first become aware of them and then as you learn more about them and spend more time around them they start looking more and more different. Your eyes are already making this journey as you now see more and more unique differences in each of the brands of trawlers you are looking at and they now look so different you can't believe anyone would mistake one for the other.

It's a great part of diving into this whole world. Enjoy!

 

[Whodgins]

Wow! That was well said Wayne and thank all of you for your posts. We read and sometimes re-read all of the posts here. Including the private messages. Forgive me if I don’t reply or thank everyone. We approach this goal with an open mind due to our lack of experience so consider us an empty glass on this subject. But for the last week, there has been a decent amount of rum in it.

A little about us;

I am 60 years old and healthy. In 4 years I hope to be healthier (New Years resolution). My wife Carol is a cancer survivor and doing great. Her sister not so well and that has us worried about Carol’s future. I have traveled the world for my business. She has not and I want to do this with her while we are both capable of doing it. We both love boating, fishing and traveling and have limited experience with large boats which does make us candidates for a Nordhavn as our first boat. But again, we are keeping an open mind and 4 years out, things can change. I can promise you that the loop does not interest us. I’ve spent plenty of time on boats in intercostal and rivers. Where some consider ocean passage boring, I feel the same about the loop.

Carol and I are adventurers and explorers. We have proven that to each other time and time again. We are full time in our RV and happiest when we are moving. We pride ourselves on the ability to pull up camp and be on the road in under an hour. Half an hour if demanded. 10 minutes in an emergency. We are also preppers. Not the ambitious ones that have bomb shelters in the back yard, just the type who believe in being prepared for worst case situations. I’ve been through many hurricanes on land and been close to drowning at sea. I have a great respect for nature and know what she can do. I am certified in Red Cross First Aid and CPR/AED just to aid us in our land travels. We are willing to take any and all courses to aid us in our journey at sea.

I have achieved the finances to jump right into one of these boats we talk about but plan on spending a couple of seasons on charters and friend’s boats at sea before we purchase. This is a big jump-over compared to those of you who are on your 3rd or 4th boat of this class. I’ve only had a 24 foot Pearson sailboat and a 30-foot fishing boat as my largest boat. That’s why I don’t like the forward berth at sea but it makes sense to use all of your berths depending on where you’re at. Good advice. I don’t know if I will get to my 3rd or 4th boat. So I want to make the best decision I can on our 1st. Costal cruiser? Smaller boat first? It may happen. In 2024 if we find that to be our direction, so be it. There is also a reason to get a utility boat to hold a toy we want. We may search for an old utility / research vessel that we can fix up and keep her in the Caribbean. That way we can get our long term sea legs and own a boat to carry a large payload. Then have a better certainty of our next boat.

We have the 4 years to get it right. And this thread makes us smarter every day.
Happy New Year

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to provide such insights into your history and backgrounds, very helpful and illuminating and many similarities between us in many ways.

As I tell everyone, my Captain aka Beautiful Bride Christine, is the true sailor in our family as she has been sailing since she was a young girl and then started crossing oceans before she was 20. I'm the polar opposite, no previous history of sailing or boating of any kind until I suddenly became interested in sailing in my late 50's, did what you're doing and researched my brains out, listened to anyone who would talk with me and set off to search the world for a boat to single hand sail the world. Found her in my former back yard outside Victoria BC where she was built and had sat for over 10 years, spent 2 years renovating and setting her up for single handed passage making and then cut the dock lines and never looked back.

I turn 67 in a few weeks and I grew up as an "Army brat" my Dad having been a cook in the Canadian military for most of his working life so we moved every 18 months to 2 years so home was never a location for me, just wherever my family was at the time. This is the best I can figure why being a full time liveaboard suits me so well and is now the only life I can imagine.

My version of being a "preppy" as you called it is "Readiness for the Unexpected", a discussion for another time but it is a huge part of how we think and how we designed and now soon will equip this new boat.

The best line, of many, in this update from you is where you said " don’t know if I will get to my 3rd or 4th boat. So I want to make the best decision I can on our 1st. " My brevity challenged self is envious of how well this summed up at least a paragraph of my initial comment to you here. Couldn't agree with you more on this point and I think it will help you find and buy the just right boat for you two.

OK, I'm on Turkey time so late over here while most of you are just starting your New Years Day so I'll sign off for now and just want to thank you again for starting such a great thread and ongoing discussion and to starting my first day of 2020 so well.

- Wayne

 

[Steve DAntonio]

We looked at the three brands you are considering but are strongly leaning toward a Marlow in the 58 foot range. Lots of room below, great build and protect props with their proprietary Veloci Strut design. I wonder why no one this thread suggested a Marlow. They are built in the same yard as Nordhaven and Fleming and are more reasonably priced.

Marlows are not built in the same yards as Nordhavn and Fleming, Nordhavns are built in Taiwan at the TaShing yard, and in Xiamen China at the South Coast Yard, Flemings are built at the Tung Hwa yard in Kaohsiung, Taiwan. The Taiwan yards for Fleming and Nordhavn are exclusive to those brands. Marlows are built by the Norseman yard, Chi Hu, Fujian Province, China. The newest Nordhavn, the 41, is being built in Turkey.

I've been to and worked with Naval Yachts in Antalya, Turkey. Turkey is a well-kept secret for yacht building, they have some very capable yards and craftsman, on par with the best northern European and Taiwanese yacht building quality. And, like every country that builds yachts, Turkish construction quality overall runs the gamut, from excellent to poor. Buyer beware remains the watch phrase for both new construction, and pre-owned acquisitions regardless of geographic location.

 

[Whodgins]

Have enjoyed reading this thread and all the wonderful expertise. Would suggest you look at the website Mobius.World and connecting with Wayne. I think he may be building the kind of boat you might want to consider. His XPM78 is well designed and engineered to travel the world. Good luck in your adventure.
Cheers
Stan

Thanks for the mention Stan and sorry to take so long to read it and respond. As you can imagine our time is completely consumed with the build these days as we push towards finishing and launching in the next few months so I don't get too much time to keep up with my online connections and reading.

This thread has sure turned out to be an excellent one and a great way to make the transition into the new year so thanks to you and everyone for that nice gift.

 

[Whodgins]

Re interior space, fuel capacity is definitely a factor in how much interior living space is available. Just to show some contrast, a Fleming 65 hold 1700 gal, where my Nordhavn 68 holds 3400 - double the fuel. That takes a lot of space, and is the price you pay (or at least one of them) for longer range.

Great point Peter about the amount of usable volume inside a boat being a key metric and one that is rarely available when comparing different boats. As you noted the volume of space required for fuel on long range passage makers which are the focus in this thread is important to consider.

Safety was our primary reason for designing our XPM78 to have all tanks be integral with the all aluminium hull which means that almost everything from the waterline down on the XPMs, FPB's similar, is either fuel or water tanks. With total tank capacity for 14,600L/3860 USG of fuel and 7100L/1875 USG water that would have taken up a lot of interior volume but with the tank tops being the start of our floors we essentially loose no interior volume. This is one of the differences that isn't immediately obvious when comparing the interior volume of different boats based on just their basic LOA, Beam and freeboard numbers.

Having all the liquid storage below the WL keeps the majority of our weight down low which helps to meet our design requirement to be self righting and also means that even in the unlikely event of striking something hard enough to open up the hull it would "only" compromise one relatively small tank and not allow water to enter elsewhere so we could most likely continue to travel safely to a shoreside facility for repairs.

The really nice bonus feature of integral below the WL tanks is that almost all the interior volume of the hull is then usable volume within which to design the living and equipment spaces so gave us a lot of freedom with this part of the design.

 

[Whodgins]

Are these folks from Mobius World now owning the old FPB / Dashew design? I never liked the FPB style but I’m curious.

Good question Dan and I can see why some might think so but the only connection between the FPB and XPM designs was that of both were designed for very similar use cases.

Christine and I are voracious researchers, readers and pretty good learners so we seek out and find great teachers everywhere we can. One of those sources and teachers for many years back when we were sailors, was Steve and Linda Dashew, initially with their extremely well written Encyclopedias which we both carried on our previous boats and were perhaps some of the most well used books onboard. So we vicariously joined them in later years as they made their transition journey to Beowolf which begat Windhorse, which would turn out to be the genesis of the FPB series that followed and were very faithful followers of the SetSail blog when they started to use that to chronicle their latest journey and we still follow their adventures to this day and learn a LOT by doing so.

I happened to be in Whangarei on my sailboat Learnativity hiding out during the 2009/2010 cyclone season and was able to be at Circa for the launch of the very first FPB64 Avatar. Steve and the great people at Circa welcomed Christine and I back to their yard when we were again in Whangarei in subsequent years, the most recent of which was 2016 when we spent an entire afternoon crawling through two of the FPB78's and the first FPB70 under construction at the time where we were like two kids in a candy store. We shall be forever grateful to the Dashew's and Circa for being the great teachers they have been by so openly sharing their design and build process and they have been a big part of what inspires and motivates us to be even more open and sharing and practice the 'pay it forward' model that now so wonderfully permeates the 'Maker' and DIY worlds today.

However the initial inspirational sparks which were to later be the catalyst to us making the impossible to imagine at the time decision to design and build our next boat AND switch from sail to power, was one of the years we spent in Majuro in the Marshall Islands. Majuro is a stop over and refuelling station for a lot of the ships traveling East/West across the Pacific and while anchored there we would often awake to find a new neighbor which was a brand new pilot boat or modern tug boat that had just been built in one of the many shipyards in Asia and was on its way to its new home in North America. They were SO impressive in how totally purpose built they were, how they could take on ANY sea conditions including many that were self righting, their negatively raked PH windows for great visibility especially on night watches, etc. As is often the case in life we didn't understand at the time just how much of an influence these boats were having on us and our future, but you can sure see it now.

Before we even began actual design work, Christine and I had spent a lot of time articulating our use case scenarios, foundation design goals and priorities which were the synthesis of our many years as full time live aboards and thousands of sea miles of mostly single handed sailing around the world. If you are interested you can read a version of that in this early post "Project Goldilocks: Mission Impossible or Just Right? on our Mobius.World blog.

When we later found and hired Dennis at Artnautica Yacht Design while in one sense we started with a completely blank drawing page, we already knew the boat we wanted to design with Dennis because we used our use case data throughout the 2+ year design process with Dennis to help us transform our visions into reality.

This use case document continues to be extremely valuable throughout the build process now and I would recommend that anyone setting out to find their own Goldilocks just right boat, be it new, used or custom built, spend some time to write down their version of such a use case and priorities document. While it is very time consuming and surprisingly difficult to put this all into text, I think it will prove to be time very well spent and in the end it will save a LOT of time and money in getting the next just right boat for you. It sure was for us.

 

[Dan_can]

Good question Dan and I can see why some might think so but the only connection between the FPB and XPM designs was that of both were designed for very similar use cases.

Christine and I are voracious researchers, readers and pretty good learners so we seek out and find great teachers everywhere we can. One of those sources and teachers for many years back when we were sailors, was Steve and Linda Dashew, initially with their extremely well written Encyclopedias which we both carried on our previous boats and were perhaps some of the most well used books onboard. So we vicariously joined them in later years as they made their transition journey to Beowolf which begat Windhorse, which would turn out to be the genesis of the FPB series that followed and were very faithful followers of the SetSail blog when they started to use that to chronicle their latest journey and we still follow their adventures to this day and learn a LOT by doing so.

I happened to be in Whangarei on my sailboat Learnativity hiding out during the 2009/2010 cyclone season and was able to be at Circa for the launch of the very first FPB64 Avatar. Steve and the great people at Circa welcomed Christine and I back to their yard when we were again in Whangarei in subsequent years, the most recent of which was 2016 when we spent an entire afternoon crawling through two of the FPB78's and the first FPB70 under construction at the time where we were like two kids in a candy store. We shall be forever grateful to the Dashew's and Circa for being the great teachers they have been by so openly sharing their design and build process and they have been a big part of what inspires and motivates us to be even more open and sharing and practice the 'pay it forward' model that now so wonderfully permeates the 'Maker' and DIY worlds today.

However the initial inspirational sparks which were to later be the catalyst to us making the impossible to imagine at the time decision to design and build our next boat AND switch from sail to power, was one of the years we spent in Majuro in the Marshall Islands. Majuro is a stop over and refuelling station for a lot of the ships traveling East/West across the Pacific and while anchored there we would often awake to find a new neighbor which was a brand new pilot boat or modern tug boat that had just been built in one of the many shipyards in Asia and was on its way to its new home in North America. They were SO impressive in how totally purpose built they were, how they could take on ANY sea conditions including many that were self righting, their negatively raked PH windows for great visibility especially on night watches, etc. As is often the case in life we didn't understand at the time just how much of an influence these boats were having on us and our future, but you can sure see it now.

Before we even began actual design work, Christine and I had spent a lot of time articulating our use case scenarios, foundation design goals and priorities which were the synthesis of our many years as full time live aboards and thousands of sea miles of mostly single handed sailing around the world. If you are interested you can read a version of that in this early post "Project Goldilocks: Mission Impossible or Just Right? on our Mobius.World blog.

When we later found and hired Dennis at Artnautica Yacht Design while in one sense we started with a completely blank drawing page, we already knew the boat we wanted to design with Dennis because we used our use case data throughout the 2+ year design process with Dennis to help us transform our visions into reality.

This use case document continues to be extremely valuable throughout the build process now and I would recommend that anyone setting out to find their own Goldilocks just right boat, be it new, used or custom built, spend some time to write down their version of such a use case and priorities document. While it is very time consuming and surprisingly difficult to put this all into text, I think it will prove to be time very well spent and in the end it will save a LOT of time and money in getting the next just right boat for you. It sure was for us.

Thank you for the reply. Interesting linked article, impressive capabilities including range at 10 knots or so.
I admire its performance, but I have to admit it is not the profile and look I’d love. It would be a tough decision between capability and looks for me! (Thankfully I am not in that position right now).
Thank your for your time responding!

 

[bethlowrie]

We were doing the same boat shopping a couple of years ago and settled on Nordhavn, for many of the reasons you've mentioned. We ended up with a 55; big enough to live aboard with our dog for several years and have the occasional family visits, but small enough to get into more coves, fishing villages, etc. In your price range you might consider a 60, which is the 55 (no longer in production) with 5 extra feet of cockpit. We found ourselves trying to decide between a newer boat, 2-3 years old, and an older one that was sound but needing update that we could set up the way we wanted it. Availability was an issue with the Nordhavns, and we were not wanting to wait multiple years for the “perfect” boat to come along, or wait the multiple years for a new build, so we chose the boat based on a set of must-have criteria. High on our list was a diesel hydronic heating system so that we could winter in cold climates, followed by other items that in the end seemed to be more or less standard on Nordhavns. In the end we chose an older boat (2005) that was in excellent condition but not quite as well outfitted with extra options as comparable boats. We used the budget head room to basically refurbish, rebuild, or replace every system on the boat, and to upgrade the power system for Europe. In the process we came to know the boat extremely well, a good idea if you're going to be crossing oceans and cruising remote places.
If youre interested in a Nordhavn I highly recommend that you read blogs of other Nordhavn world cruisers as they contain a wealth of information, from simple lifestyle insights to ocean crossing stories to highly technical accounts of boat system design and maintenance. One of the more famous is that of a 52 named Dirona. Another of our favorites is that of Tanglewood which has some really detailed technical sections. Just search Nordhavn blogs and you'll find many listed.

Good luck!

 

[sunchaser]

Wayne

You seem to be giving things a lot of thought and far be it from me to offer any sensible advice as your new build progresses. I might add, that one thing the FPB series was able to do was rely upon owner feedback and listen to those very smart and experienced world cruisers that ventured to NZ to view the FPBs and make changes accordingly. One very notable change was the addition of a get home for the 64, which early on was not considered necessary by Dashew.

Regarding your integral tanks, yes they provide more ER and below deck space, but not sure how they add to livable interior volume. That said, I did not find the FPB 64 claustrophobic nor did the intended buyers, ex-sailors. For very good reasons, the 64s are not with a perched pilot house design. But the views and sight lines are laudable.