Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[Peter B]

Excellent post, Thataway. This thread is pure gold. Yez are all making me want to get back into boating again - but ocean crossing - no sirreee..!

 

[mvweebles]

You can take Thataways advice to the bank. I've known him for 20+ years and it was clear he was a generous contribute in good standing long before then. Last year, after a long hiatus from cruising, he gave me great advice on coming up to speed on electronics..

In the age of Patreon where people want a fee to chat, he stands as a stalwart of the tradition of mariners helping one another for no other reason but to pay it forward.

We have a couple fantastic posts on this thread (the KK owner stands out in my mind). Great resource.

 

[thataway]

Another thing to think about is use of higher than 12 volts DC power for night and alternate generation to have a quiet boat at night.

Our experience is that in the Trade Wind Belts there was enough good breeze to ventilate our boats well. Once we went to coastal cruising, and a trawler, the need for air conditioning became essential. There are some good sized boats now running on just batteries throughout the night.

 

[PacificBlue]

www.setsail.com

unfortunately... none will be built anymore

also read Jim's blog. wwww.mvdirona.com...automation, redundancy, automation, redundancy

I am sure there are yards and designers ready to offer a next gen Dashew FOB type offshore vessel, with some improvements, like in the in forward buoyancy/bow design , etc. especially in NZ and AU.

 

[Peter Pan]

Well, it seems you have done your homework and know what you want and need.
There are lots of experienced people on this forum, much more than me, but I’ll throw my piece of advice.
First, all the boats you are looking after are great boats. It’s a matter of personal taste. You won’t go wrong whichever you choose.
Second, twin engines, twin gensets, stabilizers and water maker are a must on my book.
Third, above 50, you are talking comfort and luxury. I own a 59 and I am very happy.
Fourth, I prefer a used boat with one or two years of use. All warranty issues have been solved and you save a lot of cash. Just like a car.
Good luck and hope you have a great voyage.

 

[darkside]

An FPB anchored at Pt Fitzroy this evening.
They really are different. Make sure you want that much expedition and that little cruising comfort.


Ocean crossings are rarely boring. I've done two at 17 days (Atlantic and Pacific) and approaching twenty more of at least seven days. There is plenty to do and experience.
The places you get to and the people you meet actually out there doing it are incredible. The satisfaction you get from a good passage, safely completed is hard to match.
Don't get too hung up on the storms issue. During our 4 1/2 year circumnavigation voyage we never had a gale at sea. We had our children on board, we waited for good weather windows, and we went. Follow the seasons and take a copy of Jimmy Cornell's Ocean Passages of the World book.
Dollar for dollar assistance with weather routing is by far the best spend you can make.

 

[Peterlbwatson]

Fpb 64

I might give an impression of being very industrial from the outside but its full of comfort inside. with lots of redundancy. The great thing about the raw ali finish outside is you dont have to spend your whole life polishing it. I have been around the world in one of these 64's.

 

[Magneto]

Ocean Passages of the World book

Follow the seasons and take a copy of Jimmy Cornell's Ocean Passages of the World book.
Dollar for dollar assistance with weather routing is by far the best spend you can make.

I can't find Jimmy Cornell's Ocean Passages of the World. There is a book by Jimmy Cornell (World Cursing Routes). Is that the one? Or can you send me a link to where I can get Ocean Passages of the World book?

Thanks

 

[Magneto]

I also enjoy reading Thataway's posts. So far it's better reading then the world cruising books we're reading now.

 

[mvweebles]

Follow the seasons and take a copy of Jimmy Cornell's Ocean Passages of the World book.
Dollar for dollar assistance with weather routing is by far the best spend you can make.

Probably means World Cruising Routes by Cornell. Challenge is this is sail-focused meaning dead-calm is the enemy vs a power boat.

In my opinion, the greatest liberator for cruising is ability and tools to make your own weather decisions with reasonable confidence. Cruising ports are full of sailors waiting for the perfect weather window that is always 'a few days away,' many of whom are quite persuasive in their reasoning not to leave tomorrow. Perhaps the #1 seamanship skill to better cruising is developing knowledge and feel for weather to make your own decisions. Fortunately, there are some great weather products available these days (PredictWind via IridiumGO is good, though do not displace usefullness of synoptic charts). That said, I can understand reasoning behind hiring a wx router for transoceanic passages to consult with.

 

[sunchaser]

I might give an impression of being very industrial from the outside but its full of comfort inside. with lots of redundancy. The great thing about the raw ali finish outside is you dont have to spend your whole life polishing it. I have been around the world in one of these 64's.

Great comments Peter.

I've been on FPBs and visited the NZ build site. Like many on TF I got my blue water time sailing. If one knows the history of Dashew's sailing vessel Beowulf, the creation of the FPB falls into place.

The genesis of the FPB includes utilizing long and narrow, not dissimilar from a sail boat. With superb seaworthiness, an effortless 10 -12 knot speed and 2+ nmpg efficiency the FPB is a very different vessel than say a Nordhavn. Intentionally so.

An FPB is purpose built and not for everyone. It will not appeal to nor intended for the usual coastal cruisers. Dashew desired to build a unique vessel for a specific very small group, this he succeeded in.

Austere it is not if one is used to ocean travel on a high end sailing vessel. That is the intended buyer, a well heeled most likely deep rooted sailing owner who likes to get there fast. Porsche, Tesla or Urus anyone?

 

[ScottMac]

My wife and I are in a similar situation. We are long time sailors but as we approach retirement are looking to move to a power boat. We looked at the three brands you are considering but are strongly leaning toward a Marlow in the 58 foot range. Lots of room below, great build and protect props with their proprietary Veloci Strut design. I wonder why no one this thread suggested a Marlow. They are built in the same yard as Nordhaven and Fleming and are more reasonably priced.

 

[Dan_can]

Great comments Peter.

I've been on FPBs and visited the NZ build site. Like many on TF I got my blue water time sailing. If one knows the history of Dashew's sailing vessel Beowulf, the creation of the FPB falls into place.

The genesis of the FPB includes utilizing long and narrow, not dissimilar from a sail boat. With superb seaworthiness, an effortless 10 -12 knot speed and 2+ nmpg efficiency the FPB is a very different vessel than say a Nordhavn. Intentionally so.

An FPB is purpose built and not for everyone. It will not appeal to nor intended for the usual coastal cruisers. Dashew desired to build a unique vessel for a specific very small group, this he succeeded in.

Austere it is not if one is used to ocean travel on a high end sailing vessel. That is the intended buyer, a well heeled most likely deep rooted sailing owner who likes to get there fast. Porsche, Tesla or Urus anyone?

Are these folks from Mobius World now owning the old FPB / Dashew design? I never liked the FPB style but I’m curious.

 

[sunchaser]

My wife and I are in a similar situation. We are long time sailors but as we approach retirement are looking to move to a power boat. We looked at the three brands you are considering but are strongly leaning toward a Marlow in the 58 foot range. Lots of room below, great build and protect props with their proprietary Veloci Strut design. I wonder why no one this thread suggested a Marlow. They are built in the same yard as Nordhaven and Fleming and are more reasonably priced.

Marlows are not designed nor built to the same standards as the open ocean vessels mentioned. Maybe best this thread stick with proven and purpose ready long distance passage makers.

 

[continuouswave]

I don't have any experience in long distance ocean cruising to offer. I do have a few observations.

1. I'd get the Fleming just on the basis of looks. They just look like long distance boats. Inference: it is fun to have a boat other people admire.

2. Many years ago while cruising inside Vancouver Island in British Columbia, we were moored next to a 90-foot Delta expedition yacht. I chatted with the owner. He remarked that he had the engine room and workshop fitted out with a great stereo and entertainment set-up, because that was where he spent most of his time. The inference: there is always something that needs fixing on a boat, and the bigger the boat the more stuff that needs fixing.

3. A good friend bought a used 40-foot trawler with the intention of completing "The Loop", a goal he had been aiming for years to accomplish. He and his wife had a very nice 18-months or so living aboard. They then moved back ashore and were able to sell the boat for a very high percentage of what they had paid for it. The inference: buying a used boat at a good price can reduce the cost of ownership.

4. Some years ago, I read a very interesting blog about a fellow with plenty of money, an early retirement, and a large yacht built to his specifications, onto which he planned to move and cruise the world. The blog was very interesting, but had a most unanticipated ending. After accepting the boat from the builder, he and family moved aboard and began cruising the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway in Florida. About a week later the blog ended. Although having thought about living aboard and cruising extensively for years, the fellow had really never done any serious boating, and neither had his family. They found the cruising life to not be comfortable. They left the boat for land and put it up for sale. Inference: try living aboard a boat for a month or two before selling the house.

 

[Coastal Cruiser]

Flemings are built in Taiwan. Marlow in China.

 

[twistedtree]

Flemings are built in Taiwan. Marlow in China.

And neither are built by the same yards as Nordhavns.

 

[AquariusLLC]

Hi there,

You should also check out Selene's...they would tick off all your boxes.

And definitely consider coastal cruising for extended periods before crossing oceans!

Karen

 

[MapisM]

And neither are built by the same yards as Nordhavns.

Which are also built in China, nowadays.
And anyone who think that this doesn't matter, probably never compared a Taiwanese N'havn with a Chinese one.

 

[AnnapolisJoy]

Your choices are:

All are great boats. Each has some basic abilities and ascetics.

The Nordhaven is a go anywhere costal and ocean crossing yacht that is sturdy and looks like a Clorox bottle. Single engine with a get home emergency engine. Terrific on fuel. No external teak. Water tight everything. Accessing the flybridge requires exiting through the salon and an outside ladder.

The Fleming is a costal cruising paradise. Terrific lines and beautiful Teak rails requiring annual upkeep. Redundant systems throughout. Two of everything. A 55 or a 58 is great for couple to handle anywhere. Bow and stern thrusters and powerful twin diesels. Flybridge access is aft of the pilot house and the staircase is inside. 10 gal/hr at 9.4 knots. Can jump to 18 knots but the consumption jumps to 50 gal/hr! BTW the 58 can be configured with a midship master.

The KK is a sturdy coastal cruiser that has a great reputation. Comfortable modest cruising speed on a budget less that either the Nordy or the Fleming.

There are several cruisers on each type that have YouTube channels. Search them out and watch how and where they travel. You will soon find your new home on the water.

 

[jacklynb]

Hi

We did what you are considering in 2017. Our budget was smaller - under $1 million. We considered Krogen, Selene, and Nordhavn vessels of at least 50 feet. My husband demands a stand-up engine room, too. Went all over the country searching used vessels.

My overall impressions of these single-engine boats are: Krogens are arranged well for living, are quite seaworthy, and also quite slow. Selenes have beautiful interiors, and are very livable, but not as "heavy built" as Krogen and Nordhavn (sorry, just my opinion). The older Nordhavns lack a little in the interior presentation, are extremely seaworthy (in every size), and are built to save your life.

We bought a 2000 Nordhavn 57. Got a good price, but worked on it for months. The benefit of a used boat is that it will have equipment - dinghy, davit, stabilizers, anchor, electronics, water maker, AC/heater, radar, radio, etc, etc. The cost of these essentials greatly adds to cost of new boat. The benefit of working on the boat is that you get to know all the systems and can address the majority of issues yourself.

We did a Bahamas shake down to start. Went all the way from Palm Beach to Rhode Island on our first long leg. Spent 2 summers in Maine (most excellent cruising). Now we are planning our Panama Canal crossing for this year!

If you want to keep your annual costs down - stay away from marinas and boat yards (unless something specific needs to be done)! In 2018 w were on the water for over 4 months and did not dock once. We are planning our passage to the Pacific based on this philosophy.

If Nordies interest you, go see James Knight and crew at YachtTech in Palm Beach Gardens. James in known as the Nordhavn whisperer and will work with you to find a good boat.

Jacklyn

 

[Codger2]

I also enjoy reading Thataway's posts. So far it's better reading then the world cruising books we're reading now.

I couldn't agree more! I think it's the best article that I've ever read on "thinking about crossing an ocean."

 

[Magneto]

I have found not all Nordhavns to be single engine. I found this N60 built in 2003, launched in 2012. Twin screws. Boat name; Shogun. Currently in Japan. Why is the launch date so far from the build date?

It will most likely be gone when we are ready to buy. I only bring it up because of the twin engines. It's a lot of boat for 1.5 mil.

And thank you Karen. We will most definitely spend a lot of time cruising on other peoples boats and our charters before purchasing.

Check out:

https://nordhavn-yachts.com/nordhav...emList&cHash=5e198180ab2b006dbb7f75655bb19270

 

[MYTraveler]

I have found not all Nordhavns to be single engine. I found this N60 built in 2003, launched in 2012. Twin screws.

Before I commissioned the construction of my current boat with a different builder, I strongly considered Nordhavn, but wanted twins. They had no problem building a boat with twins (at least not in the 60'+ sizes I was considering), so I suspect there are a number out there. My goal was to have a capable long-range passage maker well designed for fishing. I ultimately concluded that Nordhavn wasn't the best choice for me, but then again I never envisioned bobbing around in the middle of the Atlantic (If I ever want my boat out of North / South America, I will have it shipped.)

There is one thing that has always puzzled me about Nordhavns -- they sure seem to roll a lot more at the dock than other boats in the same conditions, and they sure seem to pitch alot (though one of their configurations is with the pilothouse moved aft, which should provide significant comfort).

 

[swimmer]

you might check out LRC 58 at
https://www.artnautica.com/designs/long-range-cruiser-58
and
Dickey Boats Art Nautica LRC 58 built in New Zealand | Dickey Boats

 

[Baker]

Bob Thataway......good to see you on this thread and a most excellent post as always!

 

[Magneto]

So far I like the idea of a wing engine to get me to a port. Too many people have experienced fishing nets, cargo bags and other trash fouling the prop. Twin screws just mean you have two props that are fouled. The wing engine is folded and not running so as long as your not sitting in a fishing net, you can get to a port or shallow water to fix. So I feel I should stay with the single with a wing configuration. Isn't the fuel consumption better with a single?

 

[guy with a boat]

So far I like the idea of a wing engine to get me to a port. Too many people have experienced fishing nets, cargo bags and other trash fouling the prop. Twin screws just mean you have two props that are fouled. The wing engine is folded and not running so as long as your not sitting in a fishing net, you can get to a port or shallow water to fix. So I feel I should stay with the single with a wing configuration. Isn't the fuel consumption better with a single?

Single vs twins is a debate that will never end because the answer is different depending on priorities. I will give you my $.02 worth as the current owner of a single w/wing, and the former owner of twins. The Nordhavn engine room lays out much better with a single main engine centered in the ER and a smaller wing aft and to starboard. My wing is a Deere 4045 and will push our boat at just under 5 kts until I run out of fuel, so it is a fully capable get-home engine. It also drives the hydraulic system (thrusters etc) when max thruster power is desired, so it is run regularly. I find the access and maintenance requirements on this combo to be much superior to twins in the same hull. I can walk entirely around the main to inspect and/or service it as needed with full access. Cruise speed is the same with either setup. Fuel consumption is very similar but might be slightly better with the single.


Twins give you the option of easier maneuvering with props alone, but I can put my single almost anywhere without thrusters, and its too easy with thrusters. I was a diehard twin screw fan for years but now, for this type of boat, I wouldn't own anything but the single.

 

[sunchaser]

So far I like the idea of a wing engine to get me to a port. Too many people have experienced fishing nets, cargo bags and other trash fouling the prop. Twin screws just mean you have two props that are fouled. The wing engine is folded and not running so as long as your not sitting in a fishing net, you can get to a port or shallow water to fix. So I feel I should stay with the single with a wing configuration. Isn't the fuel consumption better with a single?

This past summer a good friend had the non operating wing engine prop on his N55 damaged by ice. The boat needed to be hauled to repair. There is never a shortage of gotcha moments.

 

[O C Diver]

So far I like the idea of a wing engine to get me to a port. Too many people have experienced fishing nets, cargo bags and other trash fouling the prop. Twin screws just mean you have two props that are fouled. The wing engine is folded and not running so as long as your not sitting in a fishing net, you can get to a port or shallow water to fix. So I feel I should stay with the single with a wing configuration. Isn't the fuel consumption better with a single?

Regarding twins versus single, I'm definitely a single engine fan near coastal. Regarding a lesser wing engine, I would have to experience its performance in the worst weather conditions. 5 knots on flat water will get you somewhere, eventually. Before it gets you there, with the increased time component, how much more likely are you to experience really bad weather. When you're looking at 15' seas 1,000 miles from land, will the smaller wing engine (with the much smaller propeller) be able to keep the boat safely oriented relative to the seas? I don't have the answer, but would really want to see some video.

Ted