Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

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mvw
Yup, the bulbous bow concept and actual use can get confusing. A very smart friend had a bulbous bow added to his DeFever recently. He is ecstatic, not necessarily for any gains in fuel or flat water speed but for lesser pitching in big seas which allow him to then run faster. Commercial guys I've talked with say similar things on their 50 to 80 foot fishing vessels, big weather pluses.

Modeling and flat water sea trials may not tell the full tale. Lest I digress though, the 57 is as you note and others have found, a faster globe girdling Nordhavn than other Ns in the same size range.

I suspect prismatic coefficient has something to do with the speed of this boat. I don't remember about pitching - I know the N46 was pretty bad for pitching, especially the early ones before they moved the fuel tanks forward a tad. If you read Jim Leishman's re-write of VUP carefully, he basically says the bow on the N46 was too fine with too much reserve bouyancy and would benefit from a bit more waterline forward (recall, this was NA Jeff Lieshman's graduate thesis, so he wasn't an accomplished navel architect....yet). Having delivered several N46's north into prevailing weather, I can tell you that the boat rides much, much better without full tanks. After my first N46 delivery, I'd try to depart with about half-full tanks. More than enough to do the nearly 1000 nms to turn the corner at Juan de Fuca.

But I digress. Regardless, the N57 is a damn fine boat. I really like the 'chariot' flybridge which keeps the lines very low. The ability to reliably do 230+ nm days on-end is incredible - it really expands horizons and, in my opinion, increases safety as you can make some decent weather decisions. The Dashew FPB is quite a bit faster - gotta love that.

As Bill Lee, the great designer/builder of the Santa Cruz 50 sailboat said: "Fast is fun!" It's also safe.
 
So much great info and truth in this thread. Of course I have the wanderlust and would love to go blue water cruising, but my wife doesn’t have that and doesn’t like the possibility of seasickness which is pretty horrible. I’d make sure you test both your and wife’s sea legs as a few bouts of that and the boat will be sitting in the docks.

Ultimately we opted for coastal cruising in a new trawler, (current boat will get ABT Trac stabs) and that’s just fine as there are so many great destinations with out so many days at sea.

Enjoy the search, you are asking the right questions and getting solid answers.
 
Magneto,

Welcome to the party.
you sound like you are starting out much like me, little boating experience, but a strong desire to see the world off the beaten track.
Where our goals may differ is that efficiency, both in terms of living space and fuel consumption was my top consideration.
I knew upfront that I couldn't afford to spend $10k to cross an ocean every couple of years.
Thus I had to focus on single engine, efficient hull and that means Kadey Krogen.

Now, with 6 years and 25k miles under my keel, I love my boat even more.

With a budget like yours, I think the 48 foot Kadey Krogen is ideal. Fully equipped one a couple of years old can be had for less than $1.5M, a hell of a buy.

this size also is very manageable for a couple. Then use friends and others to help with the longer passages.

My blog pretty much tells all, check it out and feel free to contact me directly.
 
As I recall Tony's Fleming 65 Venture crossed the North Atlantic. Steve D'Antonio can speak to this better as he's logged many miles with Tony. Also, didn't Venture make it to the Galapegos?

I recall an article in PMM written by Steve D'Antonio covering a cruise from somewhere in the UK to Iceland. There were huge seas but the Fleming 65 (Venture) handled it with aplomb.
Actually I think it was Venture II; the other Venture often overnights here in Campbell River and is a beautiful vessel even after its many years of cruising around North America.
 
Anyone else thinking that hull plating is ridiculously thick?
 
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Wow that is a beautiful boat and priced in my range. What are the pros and cons of buying a boat in Europe?
She's a 220v 50hz boat. There are ways to convert to global power, but you will always have issues with replacement appliances, TVs, light fixtures (if AC), air conditioning (if AC), inverters, breakers, anything AC. Some electricians may not be comfortable troubleshooting issues.

I once knew a guy who got a tremendous deal on a European boat. The above were a constant issue and drain in time and money.
 
Anyone else thinking that hull plating is ridiculously thick?
Super structure is aluminum so lightweight up top.

Does "hull is too thick" fall in same category as "My anchor is too big" or "My internet is too fast?"

She looks like a beast. Would be a fortune to recreate.
 
Anyone else thinking that hull plating is ridiculously thick?

If you are planning to travel widely, whatever boat you buy will require an electrical system which can handle both US and European shore powers. A converter to take any voltage & frequency shore power and present it to your boat's systems will be vital.

Not being a tax specialist, I have no idea of any tax implications, if any.
 
If you are planning to travel widely, whatever boat you buy will require an electrical system which can handle both US and European shore powers. A converter to take any voltage & frequency shore power and present it to your boat's systems will be vital.

Not being a tax specialist, I have no idea of any tax implications, if any.
Atlas and Asea are the two major players in global power converters. They are not simple installations and require specialized grounding and interfacing with generators and inverters. They also generate a fair amount of heat. I agree it's an important part of being comfortable on a global cruise, but need to point out the complexity and expense of installing and maintaining a truly global power system. Ken Williams, when stepping up from his N62 to a much larger in volume N64, went from occasional generator use to full-time use and his 14kw of inverter capacity proved inadequate to power the boat.

Bottom line: electrics get exponentially complex as the boat increases in size. Layer on global power and perhaps 3-phase, and you're into another world of support and cost. There was a response to this thread a day or two ago that queried about considering a sailboat for a circumnavigation. Tradeoff between simplicity and creature comforts.
 
Anyone else thinking that hull plating is ridiculously thick?


12/14 is unusually thick. I don't think of it as ridiculously thick. It would be great piece of mind when cruising poorly charted areas with rocky shores. And if the OP has any plans for the Northwest Passage or other icy waters. Hitting a shipping container in the dark wouldn't be much of a threat either.

Another thought is steel has a bad rep here on TF for rusting. Of course it does rust, if the OP wants a gel coat shiny finish will be an on ongoing challenge. But with 12/14 mm hull plating a bit if internal rust won't affect structural integrity much.
 
Magneto
Internet shopping can be wildly misleading. Your first three choices were pretty much spot on. Suggest you stick with those before branching out. Time to walk the docks and see some boats up front and personal. Any of the three can be easily set up to deal with varying electrical schemes.

All three will be at the January Seattle boat show. Your 3 year time frame will erode faster than you realize. BTW, this site has been oft used for boat dreamers and we are over enthusiastic to respond, too much so usually.
 
She's a 220v 50hz boat. There are ways to convert to global power, but you will always have issues with replacement appliances, TVs, light fixtures (if AC), air conditioning (if AC), inverters, breakers, anything AC. Some electricians may not be comfortable troubleshooting issues.

I once knew a guy who got a tremendous deal on a European boat. The above were a constant issue and drain in time and money.

If I read the OP correctly in this thread and his first thread Navigating the world staring in 3 years he will be traveling the world. A bit of research turns up that much of the world uses 50 hz power. Voltage is a different thing.

Yes, if the boat were to be used primarily in parts of the world that use 60 hz power then appliances and devices would be an issue. Not unsolvable Amazon is an amazing resource for 50 hz appliances and devices. Many electronic devices especially those that use a power cube are equally happy to run on 60 hz or 50 hz, read the fine print on the back of the power cube or device.

"Summary
The voltage and frequency (used in homes) of AC electricity varies from country to country throughout the world. Most use 220V and 50Hz. About 20% of the countries use 110-120 V and/or 60Hz to power their homes. 220-240 V and 60Hz are the most efficient values, but only a few countries use that combination. The United States uses 120V and 60Hz AC electricity."

Source: List of Worldwide AC Voltages and Frequencies
 
If I read the OP correctly in this thread and his first thread Navigating the world staring in 3 years he will be traveling the world. A bit of research turns up that much of the world uses 50 hz power. Voltage is a different thing.

Assuming there is no home-base, I agree - pick one and just stick with it. And yes, voltage is a different thing - the US single-phase (homes, boats) provides 240VAC via two legs of 120VAC. 220V/50hz is supplied as a single 220VAC leg. This means even US-style 240VAC appliances such as dryers and ranges cannot be used in a European 220VAC circuit.

None of this is insurmountable with a knowledgeable electrician, time to research, and adequate room on a credit card - converting electricity at hi-current is neither simple or inexpensive. The OP asked if there were concerns about purchasing in Europe. If s/he plans to be based in US, this is a biggie. If s/he plans to enter the Witness Protection Program and never return, less of an issue.

EDIT - in the end, this is better addressed by a Nordhavn-specific forum. Twisted Tree noted that a fairly large percentage of Nordhavn owners cross oceans - given their general tech saviness and reasonably hi-net-worth demographic, they've likely solved this years ago. But it is something to be aware of. Not trivial.
 
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EDIT - in the end, this is better addressed by a Nordhavn-specific forum. Twisted Tree noted that a fairly large percentage of Nordhavn owners cross oceans - given their general tech saviness and reasonably hi-net-worth demographic, they've likely solved this years ago. But it is something to be aware of. Not trivial.


I'd say the most common approach to international power, assuming you don't want an ASEA or Atlas, is to use Inverters and Chargers.


The example I'll give is for a 60hz boat operating on 50hz shore power, but it works equally well for a 50hz boat on 60hz power.


Basically you run all you 60hz sensitive loads off the inverters, not directly off shore power. In this config they are drawing power from the batteries. Then you run a set of chargers off shore power with universal AC inputs. These are available from all the usual suspects, and will typically accept any input power from 90-250V, 50 or 60hz. The chargers end up powering the inverters, with the batteries making up any short term deficits, then topped back up by the chargers. It also allows you to run off much lower power shore connections while still having peak power consumption limited only by your inverters. As long as the average consumption doesn't exceed available shore power, you are good to go. It works very well, and is fundamentally what's inside and ASEA or Atlas anyway, but has the added advantage of the batteries for peak power shaving.



This approach does, however, drive you to larger/more inverters and larger/more chargers than you might otherwise have. But I think it beats the heck out of a full fledged power converter.
 
As a systems guy your transition to this dimension shouldn't be too difficult. One thing that will come up is the ideal boat for such an undertaking is a large sail boat, simple, lower maint cost, reliable, etc.... Don't rule them out, but if you do rule them out because of comfort and luxury, this endeavor (circumnavigation), might not be for you...

I question how a large sailboat would be simpler or lower in maintenance: it will have all the same systems as a powerboat with the added complexity of standing and running rigging as well as the sails. The main engine might be smaller, but that will have little to do with the need for routine service. Of course you will have all the living spaces below decks with tiny porthole for light and visibility, even the Nordhavns have above deck salons with windows to admire the view once you get there. You also will have to get used to traveling on your side as the boat heels......
 
I question how a large sailboat would be simpler or lower in maintenance: it will have all the same systems as a powerboat with the added complexity of standing and running rigging as well as the sails. The main engine might be smaller, but that will have little to do with the need for routine service. Of course you will have all the living spaces below decks with tiny porthole for light and visibility, even the Nordhavns have above deck salons with windows to admire the view once you get there. You also will have to get used to traveling on your side as the boat heels......


I agree. I think sail boats are simpler only to the extend that they support more minimalist living, and that is much more the norm on sail boats. The same minimalist living on a power boat will yield the same systems, and same complexity, but without all the sail rigging. So I would argue that for comparable accommodations and amenities, a sail boat is MORE COMPLICATED than a power boat, not less complicated.
 
I question how a large sailboat would be simpler or lower in maintenance: it will have all the same systems as a powerboat with the added complexity of standing and running rigging as well as the sails. The main engine might be smaller, but that will have little to do with the need for routine service. Of course you will have all the living spaces below decks with tiny porthole for light and visibility, even the Nordhavns have above deck salons with windows to admire the view once you get there. You also will have to get used to traveling on your side as the boat heels......


No active stabilizers required on a sailboat, but other than that I agree— same systems as a powerboat.
 
I agree with most everything said above, except the order in which decisions need to be made. I’ve delivered enough boats and worked with enough new boaters to know the odds Of being a successful cruising couple are not in your favor unless you go offshore boating soon to get experience that will shape your boat decision.
Passages are definitely a long time to sit and think. Is the weather bad and going to get worse? When is something going to break and how serious will it be? Is everyone onboard healthy and what do we do when that changes?
Buying new vs used: due to the lead times in new boats and the ever increasing cost to build, I’ve seen used boats selling for close to or above their new prices. Lower quality or high production boats will see depreciation, but a Nordhavn or Fleming will not. Some brands work off the Detroit Automaker business model and push boats to the dealer lots, only to sit in inventory. The Nordhavn and Fleming’s, from my view, are custom orders with several year lead times.
Finally, you mentioned twice about finding a boat that the owner can’t afford. That will be a huge battle of maintenance catch-up!
Good luck, keep consuming information and then strike a plan to get offshore.
 
Some years ago Steve Dashew did a detailed comparison of power Vs sail costs for similar vessels and missions. Steve was well placed to do this comparison given his experiences building and seriously cruising performance sail boats. In essence the costs were comparable if not favoring a power boat.

The well spring of the FPBs was this sort of thinking. But as he noted, the comparison was made on high annual hour and long distance travelers. A close monitoring and replacement of performance sails is not an inexpensive endeavor. When comparing to the annual cost of an efficient hull with say JD 4045s or 6068s the results are one thing, if comparing to a set of MAN 1200 HP engines quite another though.
 
I agree. I think sail boats are simpler only to the extend that they support more minimalist living, and that is much more the norm on sail boats. The same minimalist living on a power boat will yield the same systems, and same complexity, but without all the sail rigging. So I would argue that for comparable accommodations and amenities, a sail boat is MORE COMPLICATED than a power boat, not less complicated.

The same applies to smaller powerboats vs larger: all of the same systems, just much less room to service them........ Our friends have a 36’ Sea Ray and they have nearly everything we have on our 63, just crammed into 1/2 the space. We have a couple more a/c units and a washer and dryer, but we also have room to access it all without being double jointed. An 18’ beam goes a long way towards increasing interior volume.
 
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Being an Electrical Engineer, I’m not worried about the conversions, beside Twistedtree laid it out pretty well . I traveled to many countries on electrical projects and can understand the required conversion. Besides, I’m not sure if we have a home base. We are kind of traveling gypsies.

Home base? We have extensive plans for caravanning the interior of the UK most likely will end up calling Barcelona or Mallorca home port but for how long before we’re off again? One of my projects was in Phuket Thailand and I also thought of returning and never come back. If any of you have been there, you know what I mean.

Some of the post here has mentioned starting out with a plan but not making pass one particular harbor they find and calling it home. I can see that happening with us. Especially if we anchor in Phuket. So I will save that for last.

Sunchaser mentioned the January Seattle boat show. I may be able to make it but I am hoping to attend the east coast and Florida shows that come up. The problem with boat shows is the last one I attended, I bought a 2-seat catamaran (Craig cat). Seen one? I was only there to look but we have fun with it and may make it one of our dinghy’s.

I’m more concerned about the steel hull on a 15-year-old boat. How often would this need to be pulled out and scraped, cleaned and panted? Sure the hull is great against ice, logs and floating containers in the night but isn’t the maintenance considerably more?


DSC_0440.jpg
 
I agree with most everything said above, except the order in which decisions need to be made. I’ve delivered enough boats and worked with enough new boaters to know the odds Of being a successful cruising couple are not in your favor unless you go offshore boating soon to get experience that will shape your boat decision.
Passages are definitely a long time to sit and think. Is the weather bad and going to get worse? When is something going to break and how serious will it be? Is everyone onboard healthy and what do we do when that changes?
Buying new vs used: due to the lead times in new boats and the ever increasing cost to build, I’ve seen used boats selling for close to or above their new prices. Lower quality or high production boats will see depreciation, but a Nordhavn or Fleming will not. Some brands work off the Detroit Automaker business model and push boats to the dealer lots, only to sit in inventory. The Nordhavn and Fleming’s, from my view, are custom orders with several year lead times.
Finally, you mentioned twice about finding a boat that the owner can’t afford. That will be a huge battle of maintenance catch-up!
Good luck, keep consuming information and then strike a plan to get offshore.


I second this opinion, many first time blue water cruisers never get past their first passage.. they find out that the romantic notion of cruising doesn't work for everyone. Just the confines of living aboard can be very trying to some folks. This can result in "primal" emotions that cannot be overcome.
Get a lesser first boat and give it a go would be a approach that could have less risk.
HOLLYWOOD
 
Some years ago Steve Dashew did a detailed comparison of power Vs sail costs for similar vessels and missions. Steve was well placed to do this comparison given his experiences building and seriously cruising performance sail boats. In essence the costs were comparable if not favoring a power boat.

True statement for costs, but in my opinion, not the full story for complexity and systems.

Speaking of true bluewater cruising sailboats:

1. Engine is often treated as auxiliary propulsion, not primary. Means it can be smaller and incurs much lower hours. Fewer and smaller spares and consumables.
2. As mentioned, no need for stabilizers and offsets need for get-home setup, though sails/mast/rigging is a non-trival expense and maintenance item.
3. Household appliances vs old-school marine systems. Vast majority of passagemaking trawlers in the last generation are sold with condo-style kitchens with electric stoves and sub-zero fridges. This translates into larger generators with more hours (and more spares), sometimes with a second generator. Power distribution systems are also larger and more complex - stacked inverters are normal on Nordhavns. I haven't been aboard mega-yacht style sailboats, but the ones I've been on - even larger ones - are never 24/7 generator boats. Powerboats commonly have more generator hours than engine hours.
4. Other. Sailboats often have simpler marine heads and systems. While this is a lifestyle choice, it also means smaller, simpler watermakers are more than adequate. Another item - Sailboats rarely have large hydraulic davits.
5. Navigation and bells/whistles. Again, a personal decision vs necessary, but for whatever reason, Nordhavn-esque boats tend toward triple-displays with black-box brains; FLIR, etc. These are power-hogs and add complexity that sailboats rarely incur. This falls into the minimalism camp I suppose, but still, it's a distinct difference in how these boats are typically equipped and used.

Look, I'm firmly in the trawler camp, though with a distinctly sailboat flare towards simplicity - personally, I find the gizmo's too great a barrier to the reasons I like being on a boat - intimacy with the surroundings. For whatever reason, the modern Nordhavn-esque passagemaker is typically outfitted with a lot more stuff and systems than the typical Amel-esque global sailboat. But that says a lot about the typical boater for each - over the last 25-years, technology has allowed neophytes (like myself back then) to 'buy' their way into safety via GPS, watermakers, Iridium, GRIB wx, etc. That's the target market for Nordhavn. Sailboats still require the ability to sail, so people come up through them differently. You rarely see someone say "Gee, I've never sailed before, but I want to buy an Amel 60 and girdle the globe." They may be green, but usually come-up through the ranks a bit more.
 
I like the big steel boat, but if plans change and they want to sell or upgrade, IMO a steel boat here in the US will be harder to sell. If they are truly traveling the world, selling a big steel boat would be a easier I guess. But a “brand name” boat like a Nordhavn/Krogen would be easier to resell I think?

Vripak is a well known builder in Europe however, so maybe I’m thinking too provincially.
 
Magneto All three will be at the January Seattle boat show. Your 3 year time frame will erode faster than you realize. BTW, this site has been oft used for boat dreamers and we are over enthusiastic to respond, too much so usually.

What I was also implying in my earlier post.

I think its a good thing to dream. I do it as well.

Its fun to talk about big boats and cruising the world but the reality is very few do it. There are exceptions (like Dauntless), but many of the folks that have worked their way up to this level have done so through many years of being on the ocean, and learning how to deal with the nuances of boats, systems, weather..the list is long.

With that said, I can honestly say I hope you end up doing it and make it a reality and not just an internet chat.
 
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One thing in this thread just mentioned by the op that I think could impact his purchase decision and perhaps his cruise plans, has to do with the European Union and the schengen treaty. Think CE ratings (very complex, expensive and necessary for EU vessels) and VATs. Best to screen for boats that might have already addressed these issues.
 
Well it looks like everyone else on the form has chimed in, so here is my two cents worth.

Given your requirements I would recommend a "NEW" Nordhavn N68 aft-pilot house. N6834 is still available and is at the factory. About 90% completed so you would be looking at 6 months for delivery. You could spec the interior décor and other fitting out items such as electronics and rigging.

If you were to call Nordhavn at the Dana Point office I am sure they would spend as much time as needed to answer all of your questions.

I would recommend delivery at Dana Point. You could then head off to Hawaii or Panama depending on weather you wanted to head East or West.
 
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