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Old 09-26-2016, 05:36 PM   #161
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Ah...the Swiss Cheese model of accidents....instead of the neanderthal "accident chain".

Worked with an expert of it when he and his partner were introducing it to the military back in the late 90s. Cool Navy guy...

This guy,... Scott Shappell....

Douglas A. Wiegmann & Scott A. Shappell (2003).*A Human Error Approach to Aviation Accident Analysis: The Human Factors Analysis and Classification System. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. pp.*4849
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:25 PM   #162
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It is not a quest for nanny technology. It is a last layer of safety. A layer that would have likely prevented this incident from happening. Safety comes in layers. And if you have a hole in one layer, then hopefully the next layer will catch it. That's how it works in the aviation world.

And I would say that 90%+ of boat's out there are not on a planned route that was put into the plotter. And I already said that this technology was only as good as the underlying database. But yes, a route that avoids shallow water and obstructions is a start.

Hey, I just figured if it was good enough for a $100,000,000+ airplane I thought it might be good enough for a boat. And I can't imagine it being a complex program for the average chartplotter.
Who said there was anything wrong with nannies? Personally, I think the safety issues are far more complex and far more life threatening in the air than they are on water, particularly pleasure boating in coastal and protected waters. I took some flying lessons back in the day, and flew frequently with friends. Even did a lot of gliding. I determined that I was not cut out for being a pilot, too much dyslexia and ADD; things that led to a variety of "learning experiences" on the water but would have been fatal in the air.

I have the utmost respect for pilots, not unlike guys who can hit major league pitching, another, for me (and I am glad to say the Michael Jordans of the world) impossible feat.
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:36 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Ah...the Swiss Cheese model of accidents....instead of the neanderthal "accident chain".

Worked with an expert of it when he and his partner were introducing it to the military back in the late 90s. Cool Navy guy...

This guy,... Scott Shappell....

Douglas A. Wiegmann & Scott A. Shappell (2003).*A Human Error Approach to Aviation Accident Analysis: The Human Factors Analysis and Classification System. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. pp.*4849
Now you have me interested so I am going to read it. You can find a PDF version of it here
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:49 PM   #164
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I did download it but deleted it as I saw the research before the published paper.

try googling the paper title or Swiss cheese accident analysis.

if no joy, PM me and I will get you a link.
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Old 09-26-2016, 08:29 PM   #165
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Who said there was anything wrong with nannies? Personally, I think the safety issues are far more complex and far more life threatening in the air than they are on water, particularly pleasure boating in coastal and protected waters. I took some flying lessons back in the day, and flew frequently with friends. Even did a lot of gliding. I determined that I was not cut out for being a pilot, too much dyslexia and ADD; things that led to a variety of "learning experiences" on the water but would have been fatal in the air.

I have the utmost respect for pilots, not unlike guys who can hit major league pitching, another, for me (and I am glad to say the Michael Jordans of the world) impossible feat.
Sorry man. I misunderstood. Usually the term "nanny" as it relates to technology in the automobile safety is a derogatory term. In aviation, we will take all the nannies we can get....

As far as hitting a major league pitch....if you haven't seen it, search youtube for the "anatomy of hitting a major league pitch". They break it down into the .001 seconds since the thing travels from the pitchers hand to the plate in less than a second. I have no clue how they do it.
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Old 09-26-2016, 08:39 PM   #166
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I think you're onto something here, Baker.

Seems like a perfect compliment to the Navionics Sonar Charts that get crowd-sourced updates autonomously by many compatible chartplotters. A predictive, passive warning system that would not require human programming or intervention until a warning activates. To minimize false alerts, one should be able to control the protective bubble's time, depth and distance parameters.
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Old 09-27-2016, 04:48 AM   #167
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Sorry man. I misunderstood. Usually the term "nanny" as it relates to technology in the automobile safety is a derogatory term. In aviation, we will take all the nannies we can get....

As far as hitting a major league pitch....if you haven't seen it, search youtube for the "anatomy of hitting a major league pitch". They break it down into the .001 seconds since the thing travels from the pitchers hand to the plate in less than a second. I have no clue how they do it.
Thread drift, but back in the day when I was young and somewhat able, I got to stand in the box against Vida Blue and then Kenny Holtzman of the great A's teams (many whom were customers of mine at the stereo store I managed, especially Reggie Jackson). They were taking it easy on us in case we couldn't get out of the way of big league chin music. I quickly came to the conclusion that anyone who could simply put the ball into play on a consistent basis was worth big money, and anyone who could hit safely 30% of the time was worth any amount of money an owner could afford.
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Old 09-27-2016, 05:06 AM   #168
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One thing that came out of the reef stranding of that Volvo round the world race yacht ( Team Vestas) a couple of years ago, where they grounded on what was, in effect, a small coral island near Madagascar, was that details that are actually potentially visible, may not be if you are zoomed out a bit much, and forget to zoom back in for more detail. That being the big advantage of the paper chart of course, in that not having zoom functions, they have to show everything.

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I would respectfully disagree that paper charts are the only solution. Most chart plotters can display raster charts as well as vector charts. If you switch to the raster charts, you see exactly what's on that paper chart. So in this example, it's paper or electronic raster chart would show you the same thing.

But even that's not the problem. The issue is that charts at different scales show different levels of detail, and this is true for paper, raster, and vector charts alike. There are lots and lots of large scale paper/raster charts that don't show critical hazards, where the smaller scale chart of the same area does show the details.

So I think the real issues is that you need to check your route at various scales, down to the smallest, to ensure you see everything. This is true with all chart types. I would argue that with electronic charts it's much easier to switch scales vs digging out more paper charts. Where vector charts can lure you into trouble is that the source data has many scales, where raster charts might have 2 or 3 for any given area.
And with respect, that is not what I actually said. I did not ever say they were the only solution - heaven forbid. I was really just pointing out exactly what you have just said. However, the charts do have the benefit of the fact that what you see is what you get. Obviously it is wise to have the appropriately scaled charts as well.

However, the GPS charts do have the info, just that as you say, it is a case of scanning through the zoom ranges to make sure you are not about to become undone, by assuming you have seen all there is to see.
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Old 09-27-2016, 06:20 AM   #169
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Why can't there be a way(or is there) to program a protective and predictive algorithm that would warn us when we are about to hit something or go into water shallower than a preset limit?? It would have to be a function of not just direction/heading, but speed as well. And when I say speed, mean time. In inland waterways we are always pointed at land. But if we were able to set a 30 second to implact type of warning based on speed and course...

I think its easily possible, maybe even relatively trivial software development. Given a rhumb line with vessel speed from a GPS, vector charts know what's in front of you, obstructions, depths, etc. within a given time period.

Our plotter already draws that rhumb line, but without emphasis. Doesn't seem like it would be difficult to make that sucker flash, and/or to fire off some bells, whistles, and hooters if obstructions or shallows are impending.

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Old 09-27-2016, 07:10 PM   #170
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I think its easily possible, maybe even relatively trivial software development. Given a rhumb line with vessel speed from a GPS, vector charts know what's in front of you, obstructions, depths, etc. within a given time period.

Our plotter already draws that rhumb line, but without emphasis. Doesn't seem like it would be difficult to make that sucker flash, and/or to fire off some bells, whistles, and hooters if obstructions or shallows are impending.

-Chris
It could even have a "pop up" feature. Say you are not zoomed into the scale that provide enough detail to show the obstruction... Have a pop up when something dangerous is ahead and have it pop up on the screen in a box already zoomed in.

I do see a problem if you are in a winding/narrow channel or even one with a bend up ahead. The program does not know you are going to turn to stay in the channel and it might be nuisance alerts when that happens.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:19 PM   #171
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Step one in warning is this. You use the navigation program to program a route, make adjustments, double and triple check. You look at it in detail, very close. That's a double check as they system is given your draft and warns you of dangers when creating the route.

So now you have a safe route. Then much like not letting a car leave the lane without warning, you have warning for anytime you vary from the programmed route.

The detail looking at the charts is done before leaving the dock or hauling in the anchor. That leaves the operator free to keep their eyes on the road on everything in front, with charts secondary while under way. You also have all your notes from the navigation planning.
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