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Old 08-26-2016, 02:30 PM   #121
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While I see nothing to indicate fatigue did cause this incident, I completely agree with comments on fatigue. Many people are convinced they function well at less than recommended sleet but every test and study conducted proves conclusively they don't. I once was driving home on a 300 mile trip returning from business. I'd always said, I'd drive home at night but I was going to stop the moment I felt too tired to drive. I stopped that night and got a motel room less than 30 miles from home, but that's when it hit me and the moment it did I pulled off at the next exit.
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Old 08-26-2016, 02:31 PM   #122
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I have made errors based on fatigue, carelessness, ignorance, and inattention. Fortunately, none of my errors have resulted in injury or loss of a boat. However, those errors that I became aware of (I am sure there are many that I never recognized) were learning experiences. I tend to be be pretty understanding of the errors of others since I recognize them in myself.

I agree with whomever said it earlier in the thread, there are no accidents, only errors that turned out badly. At times there can be equipment failures, but in most cases those can be traced to prior errors on someones part. Often a poor outcome is the result of an accumulation of small errors.
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Old 08-26-2016, 05:40 PM   #123
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Chain of events that lead to a poor outcome...

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Old 08-26-2016, 05:52 PM   #124
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Chain of events that lead to a poor outcome...

Ch
what chain of events?

the only info I have seen so far is a light cruising day with nothing to note, a grounding, and a salvage that had a bad outcome.

but that's not a chain of errors that led to the initial grounding.
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:11 PM   #125
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Agree that so far there is no indication that fatigue was a causal factor. Topic for a new thread.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:20 PM   #126
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Agree that so far there is no indication that fatigue was a causal factor. Topic for a new thread.
or just keep going here if we all want....doubt we will find out much more about the original grounding.

Here's what the bowsprit of that Silverton I mentioned earlier that sank looks like. The really dark spots are holes or wide cracks...opened like a can a beans at a campfire....


I will bet this one had an accident chain longer than ....well if I get into chain someone might think this is really an anchoring thread...
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:08 PM   #127
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or just keep going here if we all want....doubt we will find out much more about the original grounding.

Here's what the bowsprit of that Silverton I mentioned earlier that sank looks like. The really dark spots are holes or wide cracks...opened like a can a beans at a campfire....


I will bet this one had an accident chain longer than ....well if I get into chain someone might think this is really an anchoring thread...
I wonder if that had been previously stressed by reefing in on the anchor windless too much..
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:15 AM   #128
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[QUOTE=cardude01;472824]Do yall think he hit the levee (or whatever it was) because he was relying only on electronic charts? Would paper charts have made a difference?

There are many examples of the use of vector charts zoomed out too far to show a detail, that have put some boat onto a hazard. The beauty of vector charts is that when zoomed out, there is less clutter, as the detail of a closer zoom is dropped as you go out. That comes with a significant price if you don't frequently zoom in to see what has been dropped from your view.
I am not saying that was the problem in this instance but we can all learn from making the assumption that it may have been.

One of the best, most publicized examples of this characteristic of vector charts is a round the world sailing race of a couple of years ago, where, in a part of the Indian ocean thousands of miles from anywhere, one of the race boats, ( iirc they were all using the Volvo Open 60), ran headlong onto a reef. Lots of damage done. The navigator admitted he hadn't zoomed his charts in, as they were so far from any land he didn't feel any need to do so.
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Old 08-27-2016, 07:45 AM   #129
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I wonder if that had been previously stressed by reefing in on the anchor windless too much..
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maybe, don't think so with the size/type of the anchor, the type of boat and seeing the owner and crew around the dock...wonder if they ever have seriously anchored....


my guess looking at this particular model, that duckbill like forward part, almost too wide too call a "sprit", being slammed into a short, choppy headsea for an hour may have been all it needed.


No facts here...but my guess is it may have loosened...the boat started taking on water, they couldn't locate the source and actually sped up to make port, which in turn did more damage.


just a 2 beer theory, might have to have 3 one day this weekend and see if my theory changes....
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Old 08-27-2016, 09:35 AM   #130
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Please see post #91 regarding raster, vector, paper charts for the area. It's simply a non-issue in this case.

Yep, saw that later, seems correct, non-issue.

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Old 09-25-2016, 08:39 PM   #131
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Here's the owners first hand account of the accident.
-----

Back in mid-August we promised an update once we got things sorted out. If you are still interested in an accounting of the event and its aftermath, click on these links:



08-Aug: Ghost Rider Down



15-20 Aug: Ghost Rider Salvage Ops
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Old 09-25-2016, 09:23 PM   #132
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Nice to hear a first hand account that sounds honest.

Interesting that the owner felt that vector charts while still showing the dike...just didn't punch enough for anyone to catch it.
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Old 09-25-2016, 09:32 PM   #133
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We've had a few "mis-interpretations" by vector charts. After a Navionics chart led us right across a ledge (stopped the boat but no damage!) we never fully trusted them again! My wife always has a paper chart out for reference now.
I'm inclined to go with the Rastor charts included with the Furuno system but we will see... vector charts are nice to use when they are accurate.
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Old 09-25-2016, 09:43 PM   #134
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For what it's worth, I checked out the NOAA vector charts, and they show the dyke, but I could see how you might mistake it for a range line or light sector line.

I then looked at the c-map chart, and it's even more subtle, and I think would be even easier to miss.

But I still think the lessen here is that we are all fallible, and as soon as we start thinking "I would never make that mistake" it's just about the time when you will make a blunder.
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Old 09-25-2016, 10:07 PM   #135
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Very painful to read but great warnings to all of us. Also, a reminder that it still can happen, doesn't matter how good we are, it just takes one little mistake or omission and sometimes might not even be that. The task is handling the aftermath. Anytime a boat is lost and no one gets hurt, that's positive. I'd just say one thing to the owners who I doubt are reading. I don't know what I'd do after such an event. However, with a love of cruising and boating such as you had, it's a shame if this ends all those dreams. A car gets totaled and we don't stop driving forever and driving cars isn't even fun. However, driving cars is a necessity for most. Well, enjoying your passion if you can is also a must. If boating just isn't it for you anymore, be sure you find something else to fill the void and maybe even be better.
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Old 09-25-2016, 10:51 PM   #136
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Damn. That's a sad story.

Every time I have screwed up I'm either tired or trying to rush for whatever reason. I always have to remind myself to slow down and double check things.
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Old 09-25-2016, 11:30 PM   #137
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One thing I have learned about rituals and patterns you want to follow is to have written check lists where you actually have to check it off as you do it helps. Today it's often a computer check list with us, but it requires every box c checked and digital signature.
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Old 09-26-2016, 12:53 AM   #138
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One thing that came out of the reef stranding of that Volvo round the world race yacht ( Team Vestas) a couple of years ago, where they grounded on what was, in effect, a small coral island near Madagascar, was that details that are actually potentially visible, may not be if you are zoomed out a bit much, and forget to zoom back in for more detail. That being the big advantage of the paper chart of course, in that not having zoom functions, they have to show everything.

Volvo Ocean Race Team Vestas
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Old 09-26-2016, 05:55 AM   #139
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This was me, in the 17ft whaler, in heavy fog navigating with my iPad/Garmin chart last week. Not my proudest moment to share but things can and do happen. Fortunately I caught it before running aground.
The combination of heavy fog, glasses coated with fog water, being alone, having the screen on too large of a scale and the desire to get home almost cost me. Instead a valueable lesson was learned.

***The boat shows being on land because I didn't turn off the recording till I got in the house.

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Old 09-26-2016, 07:16 AM   #140
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One thing that came out of the reef stranding of that Volvo round the world race yacht ( Team Vestas) a couple of years ago, where they grounded on what was, in effect, a small coral island near Madagascar, was that details that are actually potentially visible, may not be if you are zoomed out a bit much, and forget to zoom back in for more detail. That being the big advantage of the paper chart of course, in that not having zoom functions, they have to show everything.

Volvo Ocean Race Team Vestas
I would respectfully disagree that paper charts are the only solution. Most chart plotters can display raster charts as well as vector charts. If you switch to the raster charts, you see exactly what's on that paper chart. So in this example, it's paper or electronic raster chart would show you the same thing.

But even that's not the problem. The issue is that charts at different scales show different levels of detail, and this is true for paper, raster, and vector charts alike. There are lots and lots of large scale paper/raster charts that don't show critical hazards, where the smaller scale chart of the same area does show the details.

So I think the real issues is that you need to check your route at various scales, down to the smallest, to ensure you see everything. This is true with all chart types. I would argue that with electronic charts it's much easier to switch scales vs digging out more paper charts. Where vector charts can lure you into trouble is that the source data has many scales, where raster charts might have 2 or 3 for any given area.
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