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Old 08-25-2016, 02:57 PM   #101
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Good discussion. I generally agree that bad things cqn happen to sharp, well prepared people. We are human.

I don't have any paper charts. All electronic. I study areas I am not familiar with in advance, but try to use a few different sources.

If the satellites go down, we have bigger issues to deal with.

Lastly, I don't think there are many people around these days who can take fixes, and dead reckon on a paper chart. And if there is fog, or night, then it doesn't matter how skilled a navigator someone is with the old tools.
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Old 08-26-2016, 02:16 AM   #102
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After reading a fair bit if this argument it's pretty clear that there was a chain of mistakes made by that boat pilot and some of the folks here who haven't had military or aviation training call it an accident whereas those who have see the chain of events that led to an unfortunate ending (ie: an accident)...Having had the benefit of both as a layman (civil aviation, gov't employee, all around journeyman) I can see both sides and I'm glad the owners have been honest a felt that the event was likely avoidable in the right circumstances..

Ch
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Old 08-26-2016, 05:25 AM   #103
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After reading a fair bit if this argument it's pretty clear that there was a chain of mistakes made by that boat pilot and some of the folks here who haven't had military or aviation training call it an accident whereas those who have see the chain of events that led to an unfortunate ending (ie: an accident)...Having had the benefit of both as a layman (civil aviation, gov't employee, all around journeyman) I can see both sides and I'm glad the owners have been honest a felt that the event was likely avoidable in the right circumstances..

Ch
Did I miss a link or a tidbit that explained the sequence of events leading up to the grounding?

Is there a good source to read it someplace?

I just scanned back through all the posts and didn't see anything that suggested a chain of events that led to the accident.

When Twisted posted about the blog, I went to it but couldn't find any real info of the day of the accident.
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:13 AM   #104
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Do yall think he hit the levee (or whatever it was) because he was relying only on electronic charts? Would paper charts have made a difference?
Maybe, but an early question might be whether he was using vector or raster charts. If vector, next question might be about whether the dike is there at all... and then follow on questions might be about zoom levels.


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Please correct me if I am wrong as I rarely use vector charts seriously...

But isn't that the issue beep ween the 2 types of charts for the most part?

And maybe if raster charts were used and not vector, maybe the dike would have been more apparent.
The dike is dead obvious on our raster charts.


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Yes the detail issue at different zoom levels still exists.
In this case, and on our raster charts, the dike is easily noticeable at all zoom scales that are useful on our size monitor and obviously something worth checking more closely. The labeling isn't legible when we're zoomed out enough to see from south end of dike to the C&D inlet...

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Old 08-26-2016, 08:37 AM   #105
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This the area we are discussing, yes?

Over view
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:40 AM   #106
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Zoomed in detail of the markers to get you behind the dike and island.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:43 AM   #107
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Maybe, but an early question might be whether he was using vector or raster charts. If vector, next question might be about whether the dike is there at all... and then follow on questions might be about zoom levels.




The dike is dead obvious on our raster charts.




In this case, and on our raster charts, the dike is easily noticeable at all zoom scales that are useful on our size monitor and obviously something worth checking more closely. The labeling isn't legible when we're zoomed out enough to see from south end of dike to the C&D inlet...

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Please see post #91 regarding raster, vector, paper charts for the area. It's simply a non-issue in this case.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:43 AM   #108
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Zoomed in detail of the markers marking the dike itself and the area near the dike.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:45 AM   #109
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I am guessing...the short paragraph from the owner just said "south of Reedy Island" I think....


I am assuming it wasn't an issue with Raster versus Vector....but who knows what chart he was using, what brand, what year...etc...etc...


Cant imagine that boat was using ancient plotters and charts....


soooooo......this is a good mystery till more info comes out.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:47 AM   #110
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Did I miss a link or a tidbit that explained the sequence of events leading up to the grounding?

Is there a good source to read it someplace?

I just scanned back through all the posts and didn't see anything that suggested a chain of events that led to the accident.

When Twisted posted about the blog, I went to it but couldn't find any real info of the day of the accident.
Right. The last entry in the blog reads something like "we turned to head to our anchorage, then things deteriorated very rapidly". That is consistent with the spot tracking (sounds like it's not visible any more), where the tracking ended, and the location of the dyke. And Rick (the boat owner) has publicly said that they hit a submerged jetty, and that after 16hrs trying, they lost the boat.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:53 AM   #111
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Weird...I had posted the other day about a 40 something Silverton motoryacht that left the marina and sank within 10 miles down the beach.


It was a blustery day with I am sure a nasty short chop...somehow they plunged the bow into enough waves to rip the duckbill like bowsprit away from the hull and take on enough water to sink.


So despite the usual boating safety reports that say how few large recreational boats actually sink, here are 2 back to back in my backyard, very close in time.


Both sort of freakish....the Nordhavn grounding wasn't but the ultimate sinking by wakes was...


Weird.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:31 AM   #112
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Weird...I had posted the other day about a 40 something Silverton motoryacht that left the marina and sank within 10 miles down the beach.


It was a blustery day with I am sure a nasty short chop...somehow they plunged the bow into enough waves to rip the duckbill like bowsprit away from the hull and take on enough water to sink.


So despite the usual boating safety reports that say how few large recreational boats actually sink, here are 2 back to back in my backyard, very close in time.


Both sort of freakish....the Nordhavn grounding wasn't but the ultimate sinking by wakes was...


Weird.

The Silverton one seems odd but the Nordhavn one doesnt.

If the boat was holed and had water ingress when it was on the rocks and the first set of "tanker waves" dislodged it from the jetty.. and the boat drifted off the jetty.. then a second set of waves swamped the boat from the stern.. and the doors and hatches were open the boat could easily roll enough to take massive water on instantly and go down like a brick.

As far as the operator making the error in the first place.. sometimes a set of MINOR mistakes ends in major consequences. I have a very close personal friend that slammed into a buoy that is big as a bus in broad daylight.. and he knew it was there. They were going 9kts at the time, phone rang below decks, boat was on auto pilot, he took bearings.. figured they had it cleared by a long shot.. and went below to check his phone.. figuring his first mate heard the phone and would spot him on deck. He checked the phone, then figured he had time for a quick head call and was mid stream when his boat center punched a massive yellow steel buoy at 9kts. The damage to the boat was significant... his pride catastrophic for a time.

This was two people that are by far the most seasoned offshore cruisers and sailing racers I know ( and I have a bunch of friends that have at least circumnavigated)

In the above case it was the Ebb tide that was the real culprit that caused the biggest percentage of the problem.. it can happen to ANYBODY, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE. In flying circles it is the rule of threes that causes most incidents.. take any one out of the sequence and the incedent would not occur.

I may stand alone here as one not to vilify the Nordy skipper for his action, he has had enough bad recently.. he doesn't need a bunch of armchair captains ripping him a new one for his mistake.

All that being said my bud who center punched the buoy got epic amounts of ribbing until the day he witnessed me hit a submerged rock as I did a flyby off his stern. In the dawn hours I departed an anchorage we were sharing at the time.. it was very early.. I didn't wake the family.. pulled the anchor and didn't have the plotter spooled up yet and didn't see the stick marking the rocks.

His comment on the vhf after my indecent was " now were even.. we will never speak of our transgressions again".

The Admiral has not been as kind.

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Old 08-26-2016, 10:15 AM   #113
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So despite the usual boating safety reports that say how few large recreational boats actually sink, here are 2 back to back in my backyard, very close in time.


Both sort of freakish.


Weird.
Wifey B: Whooooaaa.....now we have a common component for the investigation. Psneeld....or rather, his backyard.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:56 AM   #114
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I may stand alone here as one not to vilify the Nordy skipper for his action, he has had enough bad recently.. he doesn't need a bunch of armchair captains ripping him a new one for his mistake.


HOLLYWOOD
You don't stand alone. I feel the same way. And we really don't even know anything other than he admits to the incident and infers a mistake. I would like to hear what happened though. Hopefully he will speak up. ANd he just might not. There may be legal or insurance issues involved. Who knows at this point.....
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:31 PM   #115
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Let's head a different direction for a reason for the sinking.
Until you experience fatigue at the helm for yourself, you cannot appreciate or explain very well to others the effects the condition has on your senses. But after you suffer fatigue at the helm and live to tell about it you garner empathy for those not as lucky.
We were 10 hours from our home dock at 5 pm when the weather forecast drastically changed to 40 knots of wind for the next morning. My wife wanted to get home so we left. The route home was one that we have taken over 25 times. And, thank God, I had established routes on my chart plotter for the journey. When we rounded the last turn off the ICW into wide open Charlotte Harbor everything I was seeing was digital. The horizon was make up of little square blocks of light. I was completely disoriented as to seeing anything familiar, except my established route. So I let the Chart Plotter tell the autopilot how to get home and we did. But until you experience fatigue at the helm you will not understand the catastrophic consequences you are just one move away from making.
Moral of the story. Never continue traveling when you think you are tired. If you know you are tired it is already too late.
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:33 PM   #116
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You don't stand alone. I feel the same way. And we really don't even know anything other than he admits to the incident and infers a mistake. I would like to hear what happened though. Hopefully he will speak up. ANd he just might not. There may be legal or insurance issues involved. Who knows at this point.....
Kinda feels like we are all rubber neckin an accident on the opposite side of the freeway.
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:41 PM   #117
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This is an excellent post below, been in that situation a number of times, sometimes its unavoidable like a multi-day fishing tournament. My closes mistake came when I was complacent and thought I knew the area well (even though I was only through there once before) and almost ran up on a submerged rock outcrop, thankfully a fisherman waved me down and the clear water made it stand out, but later in the evening I would have wrecked the boat, very lucky and valuable lesson.

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Let's head a different direction for a reason for the sinking.
Until you experience fatigue at the helm for yourself, you cannot appreciate or explain very well to others the effects the condition has on your senses. But after you suffer fatigue at the helm and live to tell about it you garner empathy for those not as lucky.
We were 10 hours from our home dock at 5 pm when the weather forecast drastically changed to 40 knots of wind for the next morning. My wife wanted to get home so we left. The route home was one that we have taken over 25 times. And, thank God, I had established routes on my chart plotter for the journey. When we rounded the last turn off the ICW into wide open Charlotte Harbor everything I was seeing was digital. The horizon was make up of little square blocks of light. I was completely disoriented as to seeing anything familiar, except my established route. So I let the Chart Plotter tell the autopilot how to get home and we did. But until you experience fatigue at the helm you will not understand the catastrophic consequences you are just one move away from making.
Moral of the story. Never continue traveling when you think you are tired. If you know you are tired it is already too late.
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:54 PM   #118
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While I am well versed in fatigued operations...and fatigue is insidious...


not sure this would be a fatigue related incident...could be...but doesn't sound like it.....


from the blog, the owner slept in late, drove a very easy 12 miles to the dike entrance from mid to late afternoon.


it will be interesting to learn of the contributing factors.
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Old 08-26-2016, 01:15 PM   #119
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I just recently had a fatigue near incident. I got home from a trip at almost midnight. Lil mama was on the boat and could not get rid of the boat neighbors. So basically I had been flying since 8 that morning and coming home to a party on my boat at near midnight. I was irritated to say the least. Irritated enough that it affected my sleep that night. We were departing for galveston in the morning. I got about 5 hours sleep compounded on top of being gone for 4 days on a grueling trip. So off we went to Galveston. I knew that there was very little fuel in the main tanks and that I would have to switch tanks somewhere along the way before we get there. Well, we get there. Have a nice afternoon and night and I am cooking breakfast the next morning and the generator dies!!!!! I knew immediately why!!!! I had forgot to switch tanks on the way down and had run a tank dry.

Why is this an issue. I run in the ICW for the last stretch of that trip. It is narrow. And loaded with barges. I probably passed 5 barges in that 5 mile stretch. I run at 17 knots. Imagine the engine closest to the barge quits due to fuel starvation and the boat turns into the barge!!!....no really an impossible scenario. I can only hope I could figure out what was going on and gather up the boat before impact....or worse, a perfectly timed involuntary turn just ahead of the barge and end up in FRONT OF IT!!! Anyway, I do not know how controllable my boat is with one engine at cruise speed and the other, dead.

Anyway, this all went thru my head after the generator very harmlessly quit. And it was directly fatigue related. I was whooped at the beginning.
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Old 08-26-2016, 01:25 PM   #120
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We were 10 hours from our home dock at 5 pm when the weather forecast drastically changed to 40 knots of wind for the next morning. My wife wanted to get home so we left.
In my opinion, that was your biggest mistake. Not criticizing....it was just that all of it was totally avoidable had you not chosen to go...especially knowing the weather was gonna be snotty.

I had a similar incident where we chose to "stick our nose out" knowing that the weather was bad. It was upper 30s gusting into the 50s but straight on the nose. The idea being if it was too bad, we would turn around. Well the weather was so bad that when we decided to turn around, we broached and the boat almost capsized(Prairie 29...very top heavy). So at that point, turning around was no longer an option. We had to head back up into the weather and continue somewhat involuntarily. Going downwind in 3-4 foot extremely short steep seas was not possible. The only safe "point of sail" was directly into it...which is where our destination was. SO even "seemingly sound" judgement was not sound in this case.
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