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Old 08-24-2016, 09:28 PM   #81
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Do yall think he hit the levee (or whatever it was) because he was relying only on electronic charts? Would paper charts have made a difference?

I don't have any paper charts to speak of, so that's why I'm wondering. If I have a question with something on my elec Garmin chart I'm usually able to get more info using Active Captain, but if I had to pull out a paper chart I would be pretty lost I think.
I doudt paper would have helped.

Although, now that I think about it, they may have. In that when using paper and a GPS your head and eyes are more likely to be up and looking out at the real world in front of and around you then when using a plotter.
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:01 AM   #82
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And if the paper was current, and showed the dike, there would be a redundancy that hopefully the boat pilots brain would register and he might very well have been more cautious...

Interesting that the talk has turned a little bit towards aviation policies....As an air crewman on a rescue helicopter in the Rockies I would often pick up the region chart while we were flying and dead recon where we were using the map and landmarks.....amazing how much land you can commit to immediate knowledge that way..

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Old 08-25-2016, 02:30 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by cardude01 View Post
Do yall think he hit the levee (or whatever it was) because he was relying only on electronic charts? Would paper charts have made a difference?

I don't have any paper charts to speak of, so that's why I'm wondering. If I have a question with something on my elec Garmin chart I'm usually able to get more info using Active Captain, but if I had to pull out a paper chart I would be pretty lost I think.
My opinion: The fact that NOAA uses dual parallel dashed lines similar to dredged channel lines to mark these submerged dikes has to lead to some confusion to those new to the area. Not great human factors. We do not know what chart media was in use yet.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:45 AM   #84
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There are warning markers all along that dike and they are well charted too, both electronically and paper. To me the advantage of the nice big paper chart book by the helm is for advance-of-cruise review and getting the big picture. In my opinion, there is no excuse for hitting that thing, and we are as capable of spacing out and screwing up as anyone.
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Old 08-25-2016, 06:17 AM   #85
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Please correct me if I am wrong as I rarely use vector charts seriously...

But isn't that the issue beep ween the 2 types of charts for the most part?

Too often detail is lost on vector charts if not zoomed in enough where most of the time the raster has the detail but may be an awkward chart to use on a small screen?

If not I am sorry to mislead anyone, but that was true in the earlier years and why I stick with raster charts. I might be behind now, bUT the raster charts are what I am most comfortable with.

So in answering the paper chart vs electronic chart question....maybe.

And maybe if raster charts were used and not vector, maybe the dike would have been more apparent.

But all a guess.....
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:00 AM   #86
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Please correct me if I am wrong as I rarely use vector charts seriously...

But isn't that the issue beep ween the 2 types of charts for the most part?

Too often detail is lost on vector charts if not zoomed in enough where most of the time the raster has the detail but may be an awkward chart to use on a small screen?

If not I am sorry to mislead anyone, but that was true in the earlier years and why I stick with raster charts. I might be behind now, bUT the raster charts are what I am most comfortable with.

So in answering the paper chart vs electronic chart question....maybe.

And maybe if raster charts were used and not vector, maybe the dike would have been more apparent.

But all a guess.....
Yes the detail issue at different zoom levels still exists.

I constantly remind any of my crew that is taking a turn at watch about it.
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:08 AM   #87
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My opinion: The fact that NOAA uses dual parallel dashed lines similar to dredged channel lines to mark these submerged dikes has to lead to some confusion to those new to the area. Not great human factors. We do not know what chart media was in use yet.
No, a dredged channel is marked differently, with longer dashed lines (and shading on the vector). And in this case a quite noticeable decrease in depth on either side of the dike. I really don't know how much more the USCG ATONs or NOAA could do make this thing stand out. If someone confused this with a dredged channel they should be banned from piloting a boat ASAP.

On MacEnc, I can toggle between the ENC vector and the raster views seamlessly and see no difference in level of detail at any given zoom.

If anything, for me at least, the dike and it's warning buoys and markers are slightly easier to make out on the vector chart. Ditto on the Navionics Gold chart I had on my Furuno system.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:36 AM   #88
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Wifey B: People is humans. Humans is flawed. Flawed humans f up. Ain't no chart, no system, no marking, no anything gonna change that.

They be a reason they call them things "Accidents", cause they not intentional. They are unfortunate incidents. Generally they involve human error. Yeah a few have faulty car brakes or acceleration or crazy things and sometimes the plane crashes cause of defects, but not most of the time. Good drivers, bad drivers have accidents. The bad drivers normally have more, but they'd have even more if not for the good.

People can have a bazillion charts of paper, computer, even wood and stone, but still screw up. For future we try to figure it all out and how to not do it next time. People run into things they knew were there, they've been by dozens of times.

There's not a person here who has never made a mistake behind the wheel of a car or at a boat helm. Best protection is two people. Planes have co-pilots but still screw up. We do keep two of us watching in the boat, especially when entering areas or in crowded areas or new areas. A second set of eyes and second brain reduces the chance of human error dramatically. Other way of reducing odds of screw up is sobriety and plenty of sleep so they have energy and focus.

Oh, and we're shocked when robotic car wrecks? Duh.....who designed it? You got it. Humans.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:57 AM   #89
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Wifey B: People is humans. Humans is flawed. Flawed humans f up. Ain't no chart, no system, no marking, no anything gonna change that.

They be a reason they call them things "Accidents", cause they not intentional. They are unfortunate incidents. Generally they involve human error. Yeah a few have faulty car brakes or acceleration or crazy things and sometimes the plane crashes cause of defects, but not most of the time. Good drivers, bad drivers have accidents. The bad drivers normally have more, but they'd have even more if not for the good.

People can have a bazillion charts of paper, computer, even wood and stone, but still screw up. For future we try to figure it all out and how to not do it next time. People run into things they knew were there, they've been by dozens of times.

There's not a person here who has never made a mistake behind the wheel of a car or at a boat helm. Best protection is two people. Planes have co-pilots but still screw up. We do keep two of us watching in the boat, especially when entering areas or in crowded areas or new areas. A second set of eyes and second brain reduces the chance of human error dramatically. Other way of reducing odds of screw up is sobriety and plenty of sleep so they have energy and focus.

Oh, and we're shocked when robotic car wrecks? Duh.....who designed it? You got it. Humans.
I think if you had extensive training like Baker and a few others have had in human factors and accidents...you might think a bit differently.

When I was leaving USCG safety....the military was about to condemn the word accident as it was archaic in situation where injury, loss or damage was unacceptable.

Zero accidents is the goal, probably not attainable, but the recent study of human factors in "accidents" over the last 30 years has made great advances in reducing them.

A great example was (at least in the early years) was vector charts. Cheap, easy to use...but the downside was zooming out and losing important detail. Without a mechanism to overcome that, a helmsman might miss something that had been on paper nautical charts for decades. Training, awareness, double checking, secondary automation, etc are all tools to help.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:59 AM   #90
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In my opinion, there is no excuse for hitting that thing, and we are as capable of spacing out and screwing up as anyone.
Obviously, you aren't. Your view of this could even be dangerous. There has to be somewhere in your mind where you could piece together a chain of events that could lead to you making the same mistake. Or at the very least, when the facts do come out on this one, you can understand how it could have happened and why it happened. I would be immediately leery of anyone that said "that could never happen to me.".

Just add fatigue and night time and you have a good start on this one.

I have an acquaintance that landed an airplane and when he cleared the runway, he (purposely) ran right off into the grass/mud. Why in the hell would he do that??? Because it was night time and all of the lights lined up to look like a taxiway. His brain played a trick on him. Add in some fatigue...some time compression...and poor lighting combined with poor visibility and you have your recipe.

So saying "there is no excuse" is a bit shortsighted....and even dangerous because you are saying it is impossible for you to make a similar mistake under similar circumstances...circumstances we are merely speculating about.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:06 AM   #91
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Please correct me if I am wrong as I rarely use vector charts seriously...

But isn't that the issue beep ween the 2 types of charts for the most part?

Too often detail is lost on vector charts if not zoomed in enough where most of the time the raster has the detail but may be an awkward chart to use on a small screen?

If not I am sorry to mislead anyone, but that was true in the earlier years and why I stick with raster charts. I might be behind now, bUT the raster charts are what I am most comfortable with.

So in answering the paper chart vs electronic chart question....maybe.

And maybe if raster charts were used and not vector, maybe the dike would have been more apparent.

But all a guess.....
I just took a look at the NOAA vector charts for the area. The dyke shows at all scales up to 1:150,000. Above that it doesn't show.

On the raster charts, there is one at 1:40,000 which shows the dyke. Then it jumps to 1:1,200,00 and does not show the dyke.

And the symbology is identical between the raster and vector charts.

It just goes to show that if you pick the wrong scale chart, paper, raster, or vector, you can miss vital detail. Turning it into a paper vs electronic debate, or a raster vs vector debate misses and confuses the real issue. It's about the inherent difference between charts at different scales, and making sure you are checking the full spectrum. In this case it was a non-issue, but in other disasters it was very much the issue.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:18 AM   #92
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Coast Pilots let alone cruising guides can be a good backup before entering any area....Coast Pilot....

" Reedy Island, Mile 48W, is the site of a former
Federal quarantine and detention station. The pier on the
channel side of the island has a depth of 10 feet at the
outer end; the current velocity is about 2.5 knots off the
pier. A submerged dike extends 3 miles southward from
Reedy Island and roughly parallels the western shore; the
dike is marked by lights, and unlighted seasonal warning
buoys.
(260) Port Penn is a village on the western shore opposite
Reedy Island. The best approach to the village is through
an opening in the Reedy Island dike; the opening, 0.2 mile
south of the island, is 5 feet deep and 150 feet wide, and
marked on each side by a daybeacon. Approaches to the
village from north of Reedy Island or from south of the
dike are over flats with depths of 2 feet. Anchorage depths......"

Even Active Captain gives a sense of caution for going there....while not huge...an elevated sense of risk management is/was demanded.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:34 AM   #93
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Obviously, you aren't. Your view of this could even be dangerous. There has to be somewhere in your mind where you could piece together a chain of events that could lead to you making the same mistake. Or at the very least, when the facts do come out on this one, you can understand how it could have happened and why it happened.
I already understand how it could happen, because it did, and this is not the first time it has been hit either. And I would wager that there almost as many "why it happened's" as there have been incidents. I have enough screw ups (which are largely the basis for any claim to being experienced I may have) to understand the effects of ADD, dyslexia, fatigue, improper (or lack of) command to crew and simple neglect, all of which I have managed to bring into play at one time or another. And I don't regard a single one of them as an excuse for my errors. There's a difference in my lexicon as to what constitutes an "excuse", and that being different from a "reason".

So maybe we just have a semantical argument here and not a substantive one. Believe me I still replay various faux pas of ours from 7 years ago and more over and over to better understand more so than to flail myself with guilt.

Quote:
I just took a look at the NOAA vector charts for the area. The dyke shows at all scales up to 1:150,000. Above that it doesn't show.

On the raster charts, there is one at 1:40,000 which shows the dyke. Then it jumps to 1:1,200,00 and does not show the dyke.
At those scales you are going to run into a whole bunch of other things... channel markers, lighthouses, etc if you are using them for navigation.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:48 AM   #94
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I already understand how it could happen, because it did, and this is not the first time it has been hit either. And I would wager that there almost as many "why it happened's" as there have been incidents. I have enough screw ups (which are largely the basis for any claim to being experienced I may have) to understand the effects of ADD, dyslexia, fatigue, improper (or lack of) command to crew and simple neglect, all of which I have managed to bring into play at one time or another. And I don't regard a single one of them as an excuse for my errors. There's a difference in my lexicon as to what constitutes an "excuse", and that being different from a "reason".

So maybe we just have a semantical argument here and not a substantive one. Believe me I still replay various faux pas of ours from 7 years ago and more over and over to better understand more so than to flail myself with guilt.



At those scales you are going to run into a whole bunch of other things... channel markers, lighthouses, etc if you are using them for navigation.
Semantics it is I reckon!!!...
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:18 PM   #95
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I think if you had extensive training like Baker and a few others have had in human factors and accidents...you might think a bit differently.

When I was leaving USCG safety....the military was about to condemn the word accident as it was archaic in situation where injury, loss or damage was unacceptable.

Zero accidents is the goal, probably not attainable, but the recent study of human factors in "accidents" over the last 30 years has made great advances in reducing them.

A great example was (at least in the early years) was vector charts. Cheap, easy to use...but the downside was zooming out and losing important detail. Without a mechanism to overcome that, a helmsman might miss something that had been on paper nautical charts for decades. Training, awareness, double checking, secondary automation, etc are all tools to help.
Wifey B: Did you ever see where I said training doesn't help and accidents can't be reduced? I don't think so. I said you'd still have some regardless. I also said, having paper charts wasn't going to eliminate them. There is human error. Pilots are well trained. Yet, we still see pilot error. Professional mariners still screw up. Always will. My hubby is big on zero lost days in business. Then somebody does something just insanely stupid. The lady who insists on a warning sign to watch your head when taking the steps over the converyor then hits her head crossing the next day after the sign is put up. They put dual hand controls on fabric pressing equipment so you had to have both hands on it to operate it and couldn't get burned. They didn't anticipate someone somehow hoisting themselves to sit on the open press and burning their backside bad. Had this boat operator been better trained and more experienced, it probably wouldn't have happened but whether the chart was paper or plastic or electronic wasn't going to prevent the possibility.

And my favorite injury I saw not long ago on one of our store reports. "Injured shutting drawer to cabinet. Injured left breast." Fortunately no lost time.

I appreciate safety training and emphasis. I just thought we were getting a bit far fetched in paper vs. electronic and vector vs raster as having anything to do with this specific accident. The operator just screwed up.

In other situations the chart quality could well be a factor. I see people using microscopically mini little screens sometimes and I see people with 40 year old charts. I heard a captain tell a boater one day, not all that politely and in language I'm far too much of a lady to use (well, not really but can't here), "Those %%! charts belong either in the trash or hanging on a wall as an antique. You see that bridge (he pointed in the distance)? Of course you don't see the ^&@ bridge, it wasn't built until 20 years after this chart. This inlet showing 12' is shoaled halfway across and doesn't have more than 6' even in what's left of the channel." It's also one thing to use your cell phone for your gps, but I heard about someone using their smartphone (not even a tablet or laptop) for their navigation software. I would like to say I didn't believe it, but I do. I've seen stoopid.

I believe in training, that's why I've gotten what I have, and equipment, we have it all. But none of it makes a mistake impossible.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:21 PM   #96
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Just add fatigue and night time and you have a good start on this one.

I have an acquaintance that landed an airplane and when he cleared the runway, he (purposely) ran right off into the grass/mud. Why in the hell would he do that??? Because it was night time and all of the lights lined up to look like a taxiway. His brain played a trick on him. Add in some fatigue...some time compression...and poor lighting combined with poor visibility and you have your recipe.

.
Wifey B: And how often do we see skilled, trained, professional pilots land at the wrong airport?
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:28 PM   #97
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Practice and verification through AIS, RADAR, chartplotter, etc does sharpen those skills.

I have been doing it most of my adult life and people are amazed at my interpretation of distances and use of peripheral vision skills. Even night vision is enhanced by search skills over plain old retina rods and cones explanation.

Often my "seeing" things long before others is because I have experience in extrapolating the shadowing or loss of light from distant light sources that places objects in a field my field of view that are yet unseen.

People who have done this kind of operations at night are probably familiar with the basics...it only gets you stares of disbelief from others not a quainted with it....
You are talking about the difference between sight, and vision.

Sight is explained by the interplay of biology/chemestry/physics and is pretty simple. Vision is the process of gaining and interpreting information from sight. Much more complex and is something that is learned. Your sight is likely no better than others as you indicated. Your vision and perception is much better based on your experience.

Even after 50 years of experience on the water, I am really bad at judging distance on the water. I can judge relative motion, rates of approach, course drift etc... pretty well. However, if you ask me how far away a boat or point of land is in nm, I will have absolutely no idea.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:37 PM   #98
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Do yall think he hit the levee (or whatever it was) because he was relying only on electronic charts? Would paper charts have made a difference?

I don't have any paper charts to speak of, so that's why I'm wondering. If I have a question with something on my elec Garmin chart I'm usually able to get more info using Active Captain, but if I had to pull out a paper chart I would be pretty lost I think.
I have and use paper charts as a backup and adjunct to my Raymarine plotter. Having said that, I don't think that in most cases the use of a paper chart would have helped UNLESS he was zoomed so far out on an electronic chart that he lost the detail.

On the sea trial for my current boat, Trevor Brice showed me how he likes to setup his chart plotter. He uses a vertical split screen, with the left hand side being zoomed and the right hand side giving a larger overview. I have the same plotter on my sailboat and never thought of doing that. It makes a huge different is how easy it is to not only see the detail but to simultaneously see the bigger picture without messing around with the zoom. I do this now routinely even though I have two displays. My second display is generally used for camera, track, depth, radar, weather etc... depending on the situation.
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:22 PM   #99
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I wonder why this was not included in the charts to indicate the obstruction
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:25 PM   #100
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That is the chart standard for rocks,covered and uncovered.If this was between the dotted lines,it might have been more apparent what it was.
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