Nordhavn 78, Selene 78, Horizon EP77 or NorthernMarine 80

[Mako]

This may not be an issue for someone considering a boat with a large budget, but there are various "steps" in boat length which have big impacts on country's cruising fees, finding slips, surcharges for marina fees, availability to services, international regs, etc. Generally I believe the steps are at 12meters, then 15, 20, 24. Anything above 24 meters is considered a ship. I recall something from my charter days that if your vessel has a fuel capacity of 10,000 gallons then refueling (even just a few gallons) requires floating booms. There was a thread on the forum years ago where a fellow with a 96 footer claimed it cost him about 100 grand a year in cruising fees, fuel, upkeep, crew, etc.

No matter the level of wealth, it pays to do one's research very thoroughly before committing to any size boat. There are plenty of 30 million dollar yachts on the market by owners who just couldn't comprehend what is involved in big yacht ownership.

 

[Tad Roberts]

You know what is weird...this boat made it to australia...just...and our docked at my marina now. What a small boating world. They had quite an adventure with fire on board a 10 foot narrow head on miss in the middle of pacific...anyway the boat is here now. Needs lots of work. Amazing it made it.

That's amazing good time for a Porpoise. Left San Francisco yesterday and arrived Australia today!

 

[markpierce]

The cement ketch is here, now, in Vallejo, California. Their trip to Hawaii was canceled due to mechanical failure while exiting the Golden Gate. They had previously made, however, a round-trip across the Pacific.

 

[BandB]

There was a thread on the forum years ago where a fellow with a 96 footer claimed it cost him about 100 grand a year in cruising fees, fuel, upkeep, crew, etc.
.

If crew is involved, the captain alone will cost more than that.

 

[yachtbrokerguy]

If you look on this site in the Commercial Market section you will find my listing on a 2002 80' Northern Marine that is right outside the window of my office. The owner has a bigger expedition yacht now and has lowered the price on this boat to show his motivation.
I have discussed a lot with him about how he used the boat and how a potential buyer might use it. He ran the boat himself and said that with both bow and stern thrusters it was still easy to handle around the dock. Of course for Trans Atlantic crossings your insurance carrier may require paid professional crew along.
He also told me that I should emphasize that buyers need not plan on long distance crossings but to emphasize the endurance capabilities instead. With any of the long distance expedition yachts mentioned one can cruise from Florida though the Bahamas and the Caribbean without the need to refuel often or go into marinas all the time. Fuel can be obtained in larger quantities when needed for bigger discounts for higher amounts, and from sources that may have better quality control over the fuel. With 1000 gallon fresh water capacity, two water makers and with three generators self sufficiency is a given.

 

[BandB]

Nice boat and back during the period prior to any of the bankruptcies of various Northern Marine's. Unfortunately, the OP is asking about a new build and that is not a possibility.

 

[Hawgwash]

Their trip to Hawaii was canceled due to mechanical failure while exiting the Golden Gate.

Wish I had a boat buck (whatever that is) for every starry-eyed couple who departed Vancouver or Victoria by oar, power or sail destined, usually for Hawaii; half the crew bailing by Astoria, the other half by Frisco and the wife swimming ashore in San Diego.

That's why I admire the Vic Trawler adventure.

 

[BandB]

Wish I had a boat buck (whatever that is) for every starry-eyed couple who departed Vancouver or Victoria by oar, power or sail destined, usually for Hawaii; half the crew bailing by Astoria, the other half by Frisco and the wife swimming ashore in San Diego.

That's why I admire the Vic Trawler adventure.

Wifey B: Well, we didn't make it to Hawaii on our west coast trip so that's next time, but I'm sure not swimming ashore in San Diego....

 

[CPseudonym]

Wish I had a boat buck (whatever that is) for every starry-eyed couple who departed Vancouver or Victoria by oar, power or sail destined, usually for Hawaii; half the crew bailing by Astoria, the other half by Frisco and the wife swimming ashore in San Diego.

That's why I admire the Vic Trawler adventure.

That's why I recommend charter first to the op. The used market has lots of nearly new boats for a reason. The husband built a boat the wife cannot stand. Believe Amadeus was just one of many.

 

[BandB]

That's why I recommend charter first to the op. The used market has lots of nearly new boats for a reason. The husband built a boat the wife cannot stand. Believe Amadeus was just one of many.

Amadeus available for charter as are several other large Horizon boats, a couple of Hatteras 80's, and several Cheoy Lee's. Prices range from $25k to $70k. Also the price of chartering a boat in that range gives you a good indication of the cost of ownership. If you don't have paid crew, obviously the cost of ownership drops considerably.

An overview of the other costs. Four engines to maintain-2 propulsion, 2 generator. Cleaning, diving, bottom painting, periodic boat refits, maintaining water maker and two sets of thrusters and stabilizers, communication systems.

I'd estimate maintenance of the equipment to average $60k per year. That includes rebuilds every few years in that number. Deck and hull maintenance including haulouts and painting $50k average. Stablizers, thrusters, watermaker, heads, etc. another $15k average. Communication system and time another $25k. Then you toss in fuel and docking plus any crew costs even if it's just to wash the boat down.

Just saying if the cost of chartering scares you, then that probably tells you to reconsider or very carefully consider the cost of owning.

 

[Seamaster74]

This may not be an issue for someone considering a boat with a large budget, but there are various "steps" in boat length which have big impacts on country's cruising fees, finding slips, surcharges for marina fees, availability to services, international regs, etc. Generally I believe the steps are at 12meters, then 15, 20, 24. Anything above 24 meters is considered a ship. I recall something from my charter days that if your vessel has a fuel capacity of 10,000 gallons then refueling (even just a few gallons) requires floating booms. There was a thread on the forum years ago where a fellow with a 96 footer claimed it cost him about 100 grand a year in cruising fees, fuel, upkeep, crew, etc.

No matter the level of wealth, it pays to do one's research very thoroughly before committing to any size boat. There are plenty of 30 million dollar yachts on the market by owners who just couldn't comprehend what is involved in big yacht ownership.

I know the costs, and yes is not a cheap way of life, but if I charter one is just to test and have some more experience. T
But there is no bigger happiness than get on board your boat and feel you are at home.

Maybe I go for an used 60 to start ? And then I sell it when I´m ready to jump to the next level?

 

[BandB]

In the 80' range, the late model used market is fueled several ways. First, there are a lot of people who quickly find out they want a larger boat and move up. 80' long range cruisers aren't a huge market. Now, you'll see in Europe a lot of 80' sportier boats, some which could handle the ocean, but almost none with the range to cross one. Actually many cross a couple of times a year via ship.

Then a lot of people run into health problems that cause them to move on out of boating. The boat becomes too much for them to handle or they just are not comfortable being that far away from home.

Some have plans and dreams of major cruising and find they just can't make the time to do so happen. Suddenly they have a $7 million boat they are using less than four weeks a year.

Some people buy a boat in that size range too with a trip or two in mind and then once they've completed them decide it's no longer the boat for them. A 78' Nordhavn has a 7'8" draft. Might be nice crossing oceans but not a boat to do much coastal exploring. Fleming does have only a 5' draft. An 80' Bering is 7'7". The Horizon 77 EP is 6'8". Plus some decide they'd rather move a bit faster.

Now, the reason people do buy boats of this type is they do want to cross oceans and they're looking for a boat they can afford that will do so.

 

[BandB]

I know the costs, and yes is not a cheap way of life, but if I charter one is just to test and have some more experience. T
But there is no bigger happiness than get on board your boat and feel you are at home.

Maybe I go for an used 60 to start ? And then I sell it when I´m ready to jump to the next level?

Maybe you need to spend more time figuring out what kind of cruising you do intend to do and what type boat is really right for you. Think of you 90% usage. Then you can make it work the other 10%. Now I would not personally cross oceans in a 60' but we have many who do so in 42' and above and some who have cruised worldwide in 62's or so.

From what you said, time is a limitation for you and you will go back and forth to the boat regularly. That's when you think of the fact that 60 may be much better for cruising the America's and Caribbean, much better for the Mediterranean, and do you want to spend weeks at a time crossing the Atlantic or buy smaller and just ship it across. With stopovers and delays and waiting for windows, a crossing can take you anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 months to actually complete in a 7 or 8 knot boat.

There is a cost in buying smaller and then jumping up later, but not as big a cost as you think. All the time you have the smaller boat you should be saving considerable in annual costs that helps offset the loss when selling it. Your savings may be more than the loss you incur. Plus all the time you're learning, developing skills, and figuring out what you do want in the next boat and making sure it's something you can afford or are willing to spend what it costs. Just because one can afford it, doesn't mean they are willing to spend it. And there is always a next boat in your mind, even for those who are very happy with what they own and never plan to actually buy the next boat.

 

[Phil Fill]

I would not be concerned of the brand name at first but more on the major systems making up the boat. In your price range and size range opens up a lot of options. Make sure the major components and systems service and parts are available. The brand kind of engines and drive train would be a primary selection. AC and DC electricity is different in parts of the world so the wire sizing is more of a concern than what is connected. A heavy blue water boat the boat should be stable without out any stabilizing. Stabilization is to improve the ride not to make the boats stability.

The design layout of the boat is important. The best ride of most boats and safest is the middle to the stern of the boat. There fore the super structure, helm, salon and sleeping should be pullef back and protected by a high flare bow. Side decks and stern are another consideration.

Lastly take awalk down a commercial dock and for sure a yard as what is under the water is more important. Major structure, engine, system are difficult to change. The creatures glitzy can be added later. I can not comment on the boats you mentioned as I have nodetail knowledge of the boats. Anyway band name of the boat is a starting point.

 

[cafesport]

What ever boat you choose plan on at least a year to get her ready to go. The list of newly manufactured production boats ready to cross oceans is a short one.


Spell check via iPhone.

 

[BandB]

What ever boat you choose plan on at least a year to get her ready to go. The list of newly manufactured production boats ready to cross oceans is a short one.


Spell check via iPhone.

Except for Horizon, among the builders he's talking about, it will be longer than that. 18 months minimum with the others.

 

[Steve]

I guess I´m a little bit impatient, I want it now and maybe I have to get some experience yes of course . I´m planning to join an Atlantic Crossing on board a 42 sailboat with a friend that has already 4 crossings each way from Brazil to Portugal (he delivers boats) and then I will see. We have already owned once a 60 feet motoryacht but did only coastal trips in the Mediterranean, Malaga and around.

My wish is to take my dad to some remote harbors and I don´t want to make it when he will be 80.

Another plan can be to book a charter with him and experience before buying any ideas ... ?

And thanks everybody you all are Great !!!

pd : Bering yatchs look amazing , not classic but very impressive

You are right, a charter or two would probably be a good idea before making such a big commitment.
Good luck either way!
Viento en popa!

 

[Mako]

Now I would not personally cross oceans in a 60' but we have many who do so in 42' and above and some who have cruised worldwide in 62's or so.

Am curious why you say that about 60', what experiences you had that make you draw that conclusion.

Personally when I had my 65' I decided that 50' would be the perfect "not to exceed" size for me. It had nothing to do with handling or seaworthiness (I earned my 500 ton on that one and singlehanded it most of the time), but mostly because of dock fees and lack of marina space for that size boat. Also I found that the attention that I drew to myself in 3rd world ports was unsettling.

 

[BandB]

Am curious why you say that about 60', what experiences you had that make you draw that conclusion.

Personally when I had my 65' I decided that 50' would be the perfect "not to exceed" size for me. It had nothing to do with handling or seaworthiness (I earned my 500 ton on that one and singlehanded it most of the time), but mostly because of dock fees and lack of marina space for that size boat. Also I found that the attention that I drew to myself in 3rd world ports was unsettling.

Note carefully that I said I wouldn't cross the ocean in a 60', but didn't say others shouldn't and there's a big difference.

I've handled boats from 17' to 130'. I've felt the difference in the various sizes. I've also followed many of the stories of those who have crossed in boats of various sizes. I've compared the comfort factors based on their experiences and those below 60' or so while making it, didn't make it in a way I'd want to go. I have no doubt that a KK, a Fleming, a Nordhavn and a Bering can all do the job. However, the discomfort that often accompanies that job is not part of what I would consider pleasure boating for me. I'll specifically refer back to the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally. There were no exceptionally bad conditions on that crossing. Yet, those boats had a lot of trouble making the crossing and the experience was bad enough to destroy boating for a couple of those participating. Now, I know there are conditions that might ruin the experience regardless of boat, but I feel the more boat, the less likely to encounter conditions that make you or your passengers say "never again." I've also spent a lot of time with Captains and Engineers who have made a lot of crossings and listened to their opinions and observations.

I'm not the type out to prove what I can cross in or what my or the boat's capabilities are. When I cross it will be a boat that I have a greater comfort with. So, I'm personally not going to choose a boat just because I know it can make it.

Now when I say cross oceans I'm speaking of crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific. I'd be ok with a 60' for crossing to the Bahamas, to the Caribbean, for crossing to Mexico, cruising around and through the Panama Canal and up the west coast. I'm fine where I can deal with a two to three day window. When I'm depending on a 10-15 day weather window, then I want more. As an aside, I also want more speed to shorten the window I'm dealing with.

Every boat is a compromise. I do believe then with each purpose there are boats that fit better than others while there are other boats that can do the job but not at the same level.

 

[FF]

Before pulling out your wallet go wash down (inside and outside) a 60 and a 72 and decide if its a part of cruising you enjoy.

 

[BandB]

Before pulling out your wallet go wash down (inside and outside) a 60 and a 72 and decide if its a part of cruising you enjoy.

Most who own 78-80's, don't do their own wash down. Your point is very valid as just the routine housekeeping and maintenance on an 80' can leave you with little time to actually enjoy boating.

 

[MYTraveler]

Standard specs on a 78 show twin Cummins QSM11s rated at 425 HP with wet exhaust.

Not just wet exhaust (I believe that all the marine QSMs have water cool exhaust manifolds), but a wet turbo as well, which on the QSMs is available standard only on the 425hp version.

 

[No Mast]

Before pulling out your wallet go wash down (inside and outside) a 60 and a 72 and decide if its a part of cruising you enjoy.

Moana is 60ft LOA and I can surely talk to this point. If it's not a labor of love, you will HATE maintaining a boat this size as it can be a full time job. For us the trick is to parcel out the cleaning, if you try and do the whole boat at once its overwhelming. Here's how we generally split it up with one person spending about 3 hours each of these days on cleaning tasks:

Day one - clean teak
Day two - wash hull
Day three - stainless and windows
Day four - interior cleaning

We pay to have her waxed about twice a year, last time it took 3 people almost 3 days to clean, compound and wax. We do use a cleaner wax on the hull and stainless which works very well to maintain her between full washes. We generally go out with the cleaner wax and spot clean after we start to notice black streaks forming in the usual places.

BTW, Properly washing salt off is about a 45 minute exercise after coming back in from the ocean.

 

[BandB]

Here's how we generally split it up with one person spending about 3 hours each of these days on cleaning tasks:

Day one - clean teak
Day two - wash hull
Day three - stainless and windows
Day four - interior cleaning
.

How often do you do those four tasks?

Many of these issues change dramatically depending on whether you maintain the boat yourself or pay others to do it.

 

[No Mast]

How often do you do those four tasks?

Many of these issues change dramatically depending on whether you maintain the boat yourself or pay others to do it.

If you're paying to have the boat maintained, then yes, I think its an entirely different schedule. Like I said, we pay to have her waxed but maintain her ourselves in between.

Frequency is really dictated by usage and condition. We're out with the cleaner wax constantly touching up here and there. It does a great job of cleaning black streaks off and leaving a nice waxed film behind. We use it on the stainless also. Especially up front, makes cleaning off salt easier.

We'll run through the four day cycle sometimes every other week but generally more like every three weeks. If it happens that we're not moving much for a while it could be every four to five weeks in between.

As far as the interior goes, It's pretty much a full day to really clean it well. Again breaking it into smaller chunks helps. We'll do heads one day, wood surfaces the next, and maybe the interior stainless the third day.

In the end, the bottom line is that it's much easier to keep her clean, than to get her clean. So we'll vacuum or sweep or address a black steak and not let things pile up when we can.

 

[Bluto]

Or, you can accept and learn to appreciate the appearance of salt, dirt and corrosion and maybe wash the pilothouse windows once or twice a week.
Time to PARTAY!

(Just don't count on a pleasant or profitable re-sale.)

Call it the Bluto E-Z Maintenance Plan.
Those 3rd Worlders won't look twice at your filthy scow. Another big plus!

 

[Baker]

That's amazing good time for a Porpoise. Left San Francisco yesterday and arrived Australia today!

It's the international date line thing!!!!...

 

[CPseudonym]

Before pulling out your wallet go wash down (inside and outside) a 60 and a 72 and decide if its a part of cruising you enjoy.

There is a reason crew quarters start appearing on some boats as small as 50'(Sabre 48 comes to mind) and are standard equipment on almost everything over 70'. In Europe it is rare for boats over 40-50' to not have a paid captain/crew.

 

[No Mast]

We're in this size boat in part because of that. Anything larger you really do start needing someone full time. Wasn't something we wanted to do. We wanted to upkeep and cruise her just us.

 

[Phil Fill]

As mentioned there might be length, hight, beem, draft and weight limitation for the area and your plans for the boat. We would not buy a boat over 60 ft for moorage, 50 tons for yard capabilities. Draft on the Pacific coast is not a concerm, but what we seen on the golf and atlantic a 6 ft draft would be a concern. So plan and visit the area as to limitation. Many 60ft can accomidate 6 to 8 couples, and have the water, heat, sanitation, refrigerate and creature comforts.

As for the care cleaning and maintenance it can be a tasked, but also enjoyable, satisfaction and excersice. On a boat you can do most of those under way or at what ever anchorage dock you are at. So you can break it up into small tasks and time. Takes 6 to 8 hours to wash the boat so spread it out over a number of days so there is time to play relax. I prefer working on the boat more than taking it out. Cruising can become boring on many large boats as they can be automatic. We can but the eagle on auto pilot and electronic charts with remote auto for hours. Boring. Wake me when we get there.

The right 60 ft can be as comfortable, and capable as larger boats.