Nordhavn 46

[twistedtree]

TT, what brand of hydraulic PTO pump will you be using on new build?

I'm not 100% sure, to be honest. ABT is supplying the whole hydraulics package and they typically use some combination of Bosch/Rexroth and Vickers/Eaton. There will be a total of three pumps, and not necessarily all the same brand.

 

[sunchaser]

I'm not 100% sure, to be honest. ABT is supplying the whole hydraulics package and they typically use some combination of Bosch/Rexroth and Vickers/Eaton. There will be a total of three pumps, and not necessarily all the same brand.

I've used 3 of the 4 in non marine applications but wasn't aware of Bosch. I'll have to check that brand out. If I were to do more offshore cruising I'd have another Vickers PTO unit installed on the starboard engine all plumbed in and ready to go. How is your stabilizer standby hydraulic system on new build to be setup?

 

[Nomad Willy]

I think the complaint you are hearing, and will hear about the 46 is that it's a 25-30 year old design. So the design is a bit dated by current standards, and boat condition can vary quite a bit. I expect most are very well cared for, but they are still 25-30 years old. Also, at least in my opinion, 46' of anything is a very small package to stuff everything to make a passage maker.


The 46, like the earlier editions of Beebe's book, are from an era where people were proving that small power boat crossings were possible. It was about showing that it could be done. Now, 30 years later, everyone accepts that it can be done, and it's all about optimizing how it should best be done. Newer boats reflect those refinements, but cost considerably more. And budgets are always a factor.

I usually like your posts TT but I personally don’t like the attitude these days that if one dosn’t have the latest hardware what they do will be as uslessas the old hardware. Everything that was ever made (if in good condition) is as good as it was when it was made. With my 44 yr old boat is even better because of a new engine and many other things.

Good example is my Garmin 2010 GPS. You may own a new one not 15yrs old and think your’s is twice as good. But usually it’s a matter of convenience more like 1% better.

Carry on sir ..........

 

[OldDan1943]

I think the complaint you are hearing, and will hear about the 46 is that it's a 25-30 year old design. So the design is a bit dated by current standards, and boat condition can vary quite a bit. I expect most are very well cared for, but they are still 25-30 years old. Also, at least in my opinion, 46' of anything is a very small package to stuff everything to make a passage maker.


The 46, like the earlier editions of Beebe's book, are from an era where people were proving that small power boat crossings were possible. It was about showing that it could be done. Now, 30 years later, everyone accepts that it can be done, and it's all about optimizing how it should best be done. Newer boats reflect those refinements, but cost considerably more. And budgets are always a factor.

Twistedtree, I totally agree with your, a different era and the N46 might have been semi-luxurious small boat for a crossing.
You are correct when you alluded to finding one especially well maintain exterior and interior teak.
Mine needed the windows reset and the interior teak corrected as necessary and the exterior repainted. Mechanically, I maintained it better than 'good enough'.
Yes, the N46 does come from a different era but then, so do I.

 

[sunchaser]

Eric
Currently there are more buyers for the N46 than sellers. So your premise is correct from that standpoint. Likewise good used larger and newer Ns are being snapped up. So both ends of the used N vessel spectrum are apparently in demand.

How to satisfy that future used boat demand is to build new boats, not on spec but for real buyers. The market place is dictating what N to build new via down payments.

Interestingly, Helmsman, American Tug and North Pacific are building new boats that serve the current buying public quite nicely. And as an attractive non blue water alternative to the mid 40 foot Nordhavns

 

[BandB]

The stabilizers in the Atlantic Ralley were early on in the use of stabilizers in boats like this, and really shouldn't be used to project current reliability. The only stabilizer issues I hear about today are on boats of that same earlier generation still using the original Naiad set up. Pumps were under sized, pump drives were under sized, cooling was under sized, and on a crossing you would discover all that. Many of the older generation have since been updated, and on newer boats this is almost never an issue. Pumps are big, they are all gear driven not belt driven, cooling is via keel cooler or raw water heat exchanger with hydraulic or electric pump, and they are super reliable. They do require periodic maintenance, as does any piece of equipment, but beside that, they are pretty darn trouble free.

Those were early use and Nordhavn really didn't know what they were doing with them at the time.

 

[BandB]

I usually like your posts TT but I personally don’t like the attitude these days that if one dosn’t have the latest hardware what they do will be as uslessas the old hardware. Everything that was ever made (if in good condition) is as good as it was when it was made. With my 44 yr old boat is even better because of a new engine and many other things.

Good example is my Garmin 2010 GPS. You may own a new one not 15yrs old and think your’s is twice as good. But usually it’s a matter of convenience more like 1% better.

Carry on sir ..........

As opposed to your attitude that old is preferable to new in all cases and all new technology is to be feared like the plague?

As to stabilizers, there's been tremendous progress since the Atlantic Rally withing the industry and Nordhavn has gotten their act together.

We run Naiad stabilizers and haven't crossed the Atlantic but have done 1000 miles ocean runs and crossings on numerous occasions with no problems. All large yachts crossing oceans do so with stabilizers and minimal issues.

 

[Donsan]

Okay, there are Wesmars, ABT Trac and Naiads stabilizers for fins. Is the build quality and cost for all of them about the same? Any other differences?

 

[Benthic2]

Disclaimer: My only experience with stablizers is on a 700' Cruise Ship.

Question: Do you give up any safety for the comfort that stabilizers provide ? I'm wondering if by artificially keeping the boat upright, you lose freeboard on one side.

The red boat is vertical and probably more comfortable, but the blue boat has more freeboard and would seemingly be able to survive larger waves before being overwhelmed.

If anyone feeling patient enough to explain, I'd be grateful.

 

[BandB]

Okay, there are Wesmars, ABT Trac and Naiads stabilizers for fins. Is the build quality and cost for all of them about the same? Any other differences?

Don't forget Quantum and Side-Power.

All offer a variety of options now including at rest. Controls differ as do mounting requirements.

Quantum was the pioneer in Zero Speed for large yachts. They and others also offer extendable fins. However, Quantum generally is aimed at boats larger than we're discussing.

Naiad was among the leader in hydraulics and was the standard in yachts from 80'-150'. They were also the leaders in digital.

Trac has shown themselves to be innovators. For instance, their winglet. In medium sized boats, I would say Trac is the most popular now in South Florida and while we've never owned any, but have had Naiad, I'd say Trac now has more fans in our area for most sized boats.

I'm less familiar with Wesmar so don't have a strong opinion on them.

However, I'm very familiar with Side-Power or Sleipner Vector Fin Stabilizers and highly recommend them for boats in the size range discussed here, especially semi-displacement as the Vector Fins don't cut into speed and are good boat at speed and at anchor. I thought they must be overhyped and while I read their tests on a Princess 56 I still had my reservations. On the Princess they claimed 97% roll reduction at 11 knots and 99.9% seasickness reduction. At anchor they claimed 66% reduction in average roll and 72% in maximum and a 90% reduction in sea sickness.

Well, we had them on a Sunseeker Manhattan 65. Planing hull with top speed of 32 knots and cruise of 26-28. Flybridge so tall boat. They did everything they promised and we were thrilled with them.

Now, my recommendation. Find what the builder has been using and if they've been working well, stick with what they know and have specifications and design for. Sunseeker uses Seakeeper and Side-Power and we chose Side-Power and were happy. Another brand we own uses Naiad and we chose Naiad and were happy. If we were purchasing a brand where the builder had a long time Trac relationship and no problems, then we'd go that route. To me there's a lot of value in having experience putting stabilizer B on Boat Q.

Also, some adapt to after market easier than others.

 

[twistedtree]

I've used 3 of the 4 in non marine applications but wasn't aware of Bosch. I'll have to check that brand out. If I were to do more offshore cruising I'd have another Vickers PTO unit installed on the starboard engine all plumbed in and ready to go. How is your stabilizer standby hydraulic system on new build to be setup?

I believe Bosch bought Rexroth. So it's Rexroth. Similar with Vickers. I believe they are now part of Eaton. Still two quality products, as far as I have seen.


I'm not sure what you mean by the "stabilizer standby hydraulic system". Do you mean what happens if the main engine pump craps out, and what's the backup?

 

[twistedtree]

I usually like your posts TT but I personally don’t like the attitude these days that if one dosn’t have the latest hardware what they do will be as uslessas the old hardware. Everything that was ever made (if in good condition) is as good as it was when it was made. With my 44 yr old boat is even better because of a new engine and many other things.

Good example is my Garmin 2010 GPS. You may own a new one not 15yrs old and think your’s is twice as good. But usually it’s a matter of convenience more like 1% better.

Carry on sir ..........

Sorry if I'm coming across that way. It's not my intent. Someone earlier asked why the 46 isn't being made anymore if it's so great, and I was just trying to answer that. It's still a great boat. But there are things like bigger cockpits, more spacious engine rooms, etc. that people want, and that can be found in newer designs. And I think that's why people stopped buying the 46 and the 62, and why they were eventually discontinued.

 

[leeman]

I think the complaint you are hearing, and will hear about the 46 is that it's a 25-30 year old design. So the design is a bit dated by current standards, and boat condition can vary quite a bit. I expect most are very well cared for, but they are still 25-30 years old. Also, at least in my opinion, 46' of anything is a very small package to stuff everything to make a passage maker.


The 46, like the earlier editions of Beebe's book, are from an era where people were proving that small power boat crossings were possible. It was about showing that it could be done. Now, 30 years later, everyone accepts that it can be done, and it's all about optimizing how it should best be done. Newer boats reflect those refinements, but cost considerably more. And budgets are always a factor.

Well said!

 

[ben2go]

Disclaimer: My only experience with stablizers is on a 700' Cruise Ship.

Question: Do you give up any safety for the comfort that stabilizers provide ? I'm wondering if by artificially keeping the boat upright, you lose freeboard on one side.

The red boat is vertical and probably more comfortable, but the blue boat has more freeboard and would seemingly be able to survive larger waves before being overwhelmed.

If anyone feeling patient enough to explain, I'd be grateful.

My opinion only. I would rather be stabilized and closer to upright with breaking waves on deck than to be heeled over and have a wave break on the side and roll the boat. If the waves and swells are large, I would think everyone woulbe inside with the boat sealed up as tight as possible.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I think the complaint you are hearing, and will hear about the 46 is that it's a 25-30 year old design. So the design is a bit dated by current standards, and boat condition can vary quite a bit. I expect most are very well cared for, but they are still 25-30 years old. Also, at least in my opinion, 46' of anything is a very small package to stuff everything to make a passage maker.


The 46, like the earlier editions of Beebe's book, are from an era where people were proving that small power boat crossings were possible. It was about showing that it could be done. Now, 30 years later, everyone accepts that it can be done, and it's all about optimizing how it should best be done. Newer boats reflect those refinements, but cost considerably more. And budgets are always a factor.

Yeah what he said.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Did the bilge keels come with the boat or did the PO or perhaps you designed and install them?

I had them installed during commissioning. I was going to install Naiads but Trevor called me up and suggested the bilge keels. Since they were going to save me about $30k I gave them a try. I was told that if I didn't like them they could be removed or I could still add an active system and keep the bilge keels.

So far there has only been one time that the bilge keels felt overwhelmed. That was turning to port away from a beam sea and transitioning to a following sea. The boat started to roll quite a bit but just in the turn. I was turning in to the mouth of the Fraser River, North Arm. Before and after the turn the boat was fine. The waves in that area were about 5-7' and somewhat confused.

Two other NP owners have commented about how little roll there is on my boat. So I feel as though they help quite a bit up to a point and I'm not sure what that limit is yet.

Cheers!

 

[Ted]

Disclaimer: My only experience with stablizers is on a 700' Cruise Ship.

Question: Do you give up any safety for the comfort that stabilizers provide ? I'm wondering if by artificially keeping the boat upright, you lose freeboard on one side.

The red boat is vertical and probably more comfortable, but the blue boat has more freeboard and would seemingly be able to survive larger waves before being overwhelmed.

If anyone feeling patient enough to explain, I'd be grateful.

I've been in nearly the the situation of the red. Wave crest within inches (few) of the deck on the port side and water 5 to 6 lower on the starboard using paravanes. The boat was a 28 footer.

Was strange feeling but was able to keep trolling.

Ted

 

[Delfin]

Disclaimer: My only experience with stablizers is on a 700' Cruise Ship.

Question: Do you give up any safety for the comfort that stabilizers provide ? I'm wondering if by artificially keeping the boat upright, you lose freeboard on one side.

The red boat is vertical and probably more comfortable, but the blue boat has more freeboard and would seemingly be able to survive larger waves before being overwhelmed.

If anyone feeling patient enough to explain, I'd be grateful.

Interesting question. Stabilizers aren't anti-gravity devices, so the scenario in the red isn't likely. In such an extreme beam to sea the boat wouldn't be vertical, it just wouldn't look like the blue one.

In 12 years, I've never felt that the stabilizers on Delfin increased any risk factor, rather by eliminating most all roll, safety is increased since stuff isn't flying around the cabin and people aren't falling over. I would also (heretically) say that I think they increase or have no effect on the vessel's speed in sloppy conditions, since the hull is more efficient when upright in the water vs. on its side. Because Delfin is a very full displacement hull with no chines she would be a handful and not that comfortable IMO without stabilizers. I believe Ulysses, a 52' little sister to Delfin, lacked stabilizers and she crossed oceans, so it can be done.

Finally, with or without stabilizers, if I am looking out the port window and see a wall of water like the red boat might, I'd be changing course downwind.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Sorry if I'm coming across that way. It's not my intent. Someone earlier asked why the 46 isn't being made anymore if it's so great, and I was just trying to answer that. It's still a great boat. But there are things like bigger cockpits, more spacious engine rooms, etc. that people want, and that can be found in newer designs. And I think that's why people stopped buying the 46 and the 62, and why they were eventually discontinued.

Well said TT,
Most new things are better. But better for what? If a builder is making boats to fill a nich that you’re not needing or involved in or wanting you’d be wise to pass it up. If you want a 35’ boat that runs very well at 11-12 knots you probably will need to modify an existing boat or build a one-off.
However if a boat dosn’t do what you need it can be all kinds of modern and wonderful but it’s not BETTER for YOU.
So modern and new can be very undesirable.

 

[JLD]

I don't think I will ever have a boat big enough to have stabilizers, but I have found this to be an interested thread. I especially liked the video below:

Here is s good video on deploying paravanes on a Nordhavn 46.

https://youtu.be/bkT4fgo6VIY

I love reading threads on this forum. It's really great how folks with 50K boats have great discussions with folks with multi-million dollar boats. Given that this thread started with the discussion of a N46, I think that some of our members need to remember that not all folks can afford (or want) some of the newer, more expensive stuff for their boats.

Jim

 

[twistedtree]

Given that this thread started with the discussion of a N46, I think that some of our members need to remember that not all folks can afford (or want) some of the newer, more expensive stuff for their boats.

Jim

Exactly. And that's why the N46 remains so loved by so many.

 

[Benthic2]

Thanks Delfin !

 

[Mako]

At 6'4" crawling into the engine hole (not a room or even a compartment) at sea would be a nightmare, not much better when docked. Maintenance would be a pain.

That's a big issue I have with most boats is the "sole buried" engine. An engine room with 4ft of headroom, where you have to crawl on your knees, is not a good idea in a cruiser, IMO. Full standing headroom is a luxury, but I would say at least 5ft so you only have to lean over a little bit.

 

[Civilitas]

That's a big issue I have with most boats is the "sole buried" engine. An engine room with 4ft of headroom, where you have to crawl on your knees, is not a good idea in a cruiser, IMO. Full standing headroom is a luxury, but I would say at least 5ft so you only have to lean over a little bit.

You simply cannot convince me that, given a 38 1/3' waterline length and globe-spanning range and capability, that the engine room in an N46 is too small with inadequate space to work for two standard deviations of the population.

To wit:


Engine Room | http://www.arcturusnordhavn46forsale.com

 

[hollywood8118]

Its tight around the engine room in a n46, under way my hourly er check evolved opening the access door and leaning in to my waist and looking around the port side, then from the salon
Lifting the floor hatch and looking down the stbd side or the engine. Of course sniffing for bad smells at both locations. I felt that crawling around to the back of the er hourly wasn't worth the risk of injury. The er in the n57 was big enough to play ping pong in and always got the full check.
Hollywood

 

[Mako]

You simply cannot convince me that, given a 38 1/3' waterline length and globe-spanning range and capability, that the engine room in an N46 is too small with inadequate space to work for two standard deviations of the population.

My comment wasn't particularly aimed at the N46, but it is still entirely accurate in general. However, regarding your N46, your photo speaks for itself.

 

[OldDan1943]

I think I was at least the 3rd owner.
As much as I 'loved' my N46, it was a lot of headaches. The original owner thought he needed a larger generator so he had a 20kw gen installed in the aft starboard part of the ER. That took up most of the free space of the ER. It was one of those 'classic' installations..... put in before the the rest of the stuff. If that gen died, the only way to get it out would be, cut a hole in the hull, use a fork lift. He also had an 8kw gen installed in the aft lazaret. I never lacked for generator power.
The semi custom build...... lots of wires requiring physically tracing them prior to doing electrical work. Finding 2 loose ends, remove that wire and throw it away.

 

[sunchaser]

The er in the n57 was big enough to play ping pong in and always got the full check. Hollywood

You are spot on. The ER entry is the best I've seen in this size range. The mechanics performing work never enter the living space plus a great mud room.

 

[Codger2]

You are spot on. The ER entry is the best I've seen in this size range. The mechanics performing work never enter the living space plus a great mud room.

My wife & I had the opportunity some years ago to take a 4 day cruise on a friends N57 to April Point, BC. We took the back way in and stayed at Nordstrom's lodge on Dent Island. Coming through the seymour narrows the next day, I had occasion to visit the ER and found it to be cavernous! A single engine Lugger with tons of space and height. Best I've ever been on.

 

[sunchaser]

My wife & I had the opportunity some years ago to take a 4 day cruise on a friends N57 to April Point, BC. We took the back way in and stayed at Nordstrom's lodge on Dent Island. Coming through the seymour narrows the next day, I had occasion to visit the ER and found it to be cavernous! A single engine Lugger with tons of space and height. Best I've ever been on.

That is a very nice trip Walt. A few years ago we were within an inch of getting one of the last N57s made. All was good, price was right, offer accepted but, the owner changed his mind about selling and kept the boat for 5 more years. At that time we were ready to go afar, not so much today.