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Old 06-21-2015, 02:09 PM   #1
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The non-trawler used for trawlering

There are a tremendous number of Bayliner, Mainship, California, Tollycraf and other owners here. In the size range of most boats here, the leading selling boat is Sea Ray. I've heard laments here regarding where the next generation of good used boats is coming from. So, I thought I'd comment on a couple of relevant developments.

I'd not paid much recent attention to Meridian as I'm still upset with Brunswick over dropping the Bayliner cruisers, renaming them, and raising the prices. I only got curious after taking a ride in a new Sea Ray. So where does Meridian stand today. Updated styling. Decent utility although not as good a use of space as the old Bayliners. No pilothouses though and that's where Bayliner shined. Instead the only helm station is on a bridge, often an open bridge. I guess it appeals to a different group, to mostly day cruisers. Or maybe many are happy working only from the bridge. Hatteras sure builds a lot of boats without lower helms. Personally, I liked the styling and a lot of things about it but left my analysis disappointed. Give me an old Pilothouse model anytime over today's design.

So, yes, I'm even angrier than Brunswick killed the Bayliner models and the spirit of the line.

What about their old competitor, Carver, I asked myself. Well, Carver only has two models with bridges left in it's line, a 34' and a 40'. I do like that they have lower helms. I don't like hearing all the problems new buyers encounter.

What started me on this entire tangent then. Well, we went on a nice day on a new Sea Ray L Series boat. Now I have tremendous respect for Sea Ray boats. For those wanting express cruisers, the Sundancer models are tried and true, proven, quality boats. I understand they aren't the boat most here look for but they do far outsell the models we normally discuss here. Still they're not long term cruising types to most people.

Well, the L Series is their "yacht" line now. They have the L590 which has triple zeus drives and the L650 with conventional straight drives. Sea Rays efforts into yachts in the past have just seemed to me to be Sundancers with bridges added. Frankly, that's what Meridians seem like to me today, just a Sundancer with another level. However, the L650 shocked me. It was an incredibly well thought out boat. It performed. It rode well. No, it was not economical. There is nothing I've seen better at what it does than it and the early sales confirm that.

So, what I wish but don't expect. I wish they'd put the same effort into Meridian or a Sea Ray Sedan or Pilothouse. They could. I think the demand is there. I do believe if there was today's equivalent of an old Bayliner, there would be a strong market for it. A production builder like Brunswick can built a quality boat for less. That's what Bayliner was.

So we're back to the question of where does a new buyer who wants a boat with trawler like utility but a bit more speed perhaps turn. Well, Grand Banks is sure letting us down. They're selling a few Eastbays and some Palm Beaches but they've reduced the Heritage line and selling very very few Heritage and Aleutian models, the models that are more like what they once stood for. Nice boat still, but expensive and not going to be a lot of used ones down the road based on how few they're selling.

If you want a nice simple reasonably priced flybridge boat in the new market today, in the 35-50' size range, there's not much to choose from. Where would I turn?

Well, there is one brand that I've never seen mentioned here. They build an aluminum boat in Canada. That is Coastal Craft. They use IPS drives for efficiency. Gas Guzzlers not. Their 40' model at 30 knots gets 1 nmpg. At 7.5 knots it gets 3 nmpg.

Neptunus comes close with a very nice 56' but nothing smaller.

Marlow's smallest is 49'.

Not a pretty picture. I wish I could paint a better one. Now we do still have some nice tugs and more conventional trawlers being built.
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:44 PM   #2
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Yes, not allot of choices in a new build and not allot of used boats on the market anymore either.

Then again how much would a Bayliner 4788 pilothouse cost new today? 500,0000 or $600,000 or $700,000?

I do not pretend too knoow the why's, all I know iis that when I bought my 4788 Bayliner in 2011 there were over 30 foor sale on yachtworld in the PACNW in the 1997 and new vintage. Now I think there is 11 or so.
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:50 PM   #3
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Yes, not allot of choices in a new build and not allot of used boats on the market anymore either.

Then again how much would a Bayliner 4788 pilothouse cost new today? 500,0000 or $600,000 or $700,000?

I do not pretend too knoow the why's, all I know iis that when I bought my 4788 Bayliner in 2011 there were over 30 foor sale on yachtworld in the PACNW in the 1997 and new vintage. Now I think there is 11 or so.
It would probably cost more than that. However, it could still be built and sold if kept true to the original criteria for less than other boats in the market.

The used boat picture on that type boat doesn't look good in the future as there aren't that many sold new. I really do think it's an area of the market just being missed completely by builders and the market could use a production boat in that market.
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Old 06-21-2015, 04:00 PM   #4
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If you want a nice simple reasonably priced flybridge boat in the new market today, in the 35-50' size range, there's not much to choose from. Where would I turn?

Silverton is still technically capable of building nice flybridge boats in that range. And many of their later (2000-ish) models bring several technical advancements to the market (full-beam house, without hampering bow access, for example).

OTOH, since the bankruptcy/reorganization, the new owner hasn't made much headway, even though they've produced a few new builds recently. He also owns Egg Harbor, and I think it's in slightly less viable shape; I'm aware of no recent builds.

Viking catalogs a 42 and a 46. They look nice on paper. OTOH, the price difference between a Viking and a Silverton suggests the former isn't within your "reasonably priced" range.

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Old 06-21-2015, 05:12 PM   #5
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Beneteau?
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:17 PM   #6
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Beneteau?
Swift Trawler definitely fits the range.

Princess also has a 43 and 52.
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:07 PM   #7
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True North makes a 38' flybridge. Sabre makes a 42 and 48 flybridge.
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Old 06-21-2015, 08:01 PM   #8
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I think if there is a market someone will fill the need. I am intrigued by the North Pacific or Helmsman pilothouse models. They are niche players, but that might be an indication of the level of demand more than anything. If there is a niche someone will fill it. I guess the same would be true of flybridge models. The question of whether anyone can afford to buy new production boats is another consideration. It might simply be that an affordable product which leads to broad market penetration means that North American production is a thing of the past. I would love if Tollycraft was still cranking out boats in Washington State along with the Bayliner 4788...
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Old 06-21-2015, 08:55 PM   #9
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I think if there is a market someone will fill the need. I am intrigued by the North Pacific or Helmsman pilothouse models. They are niche players, but that might be an indication of the level of demand more than anything. If there is a niche someone will fill it. I guess the same would be true of flybridge models. The question of whether anyone can afford to buy new production boats is another consideration. It might simply be that an affordable product which leads to broad market penetration means that North American production is a thing of the past. I would love if Tollycraft was still cranking out boats in Washington State along with the Bayliner 4788...
Well, the initial sales of the Sea Ray L 650 would indicate there are many who can afford to buy or at least pretend they can afford it. It's always been a limited number of people buying new, then resell to those who pay considerably less, then resell later to those who again pay less. Fiberglass boats have shown they have several lives. But if there's not something to appeal to the new buyers, then down the road there won't be boats available for used buyers.
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Old 06-22-2015, 02:54 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
If you want a nice simple reasonably priced flybridge boat in the new market today, in the 35-50' size range, there's not much to choose from. Where would I turn?

Looks like your market is somewhat truncated there indeed, in that range. Maybe we have a better choice Downunder here at present. For a price of course. Some that spring to mind are our 'Integrity' series and the newer 'Clipper' series in the links below. Possibly these are available in the Northern Hemisphere under a different label..?

http://www.integrityboats.com.au

http://www.performanceboating.com.au/integrity-yachts/

Clipper Motor Yachts New and Pre Owned for Sale

Clipper | Clipper Motor Yachts
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Old 06-22-2015, 03:04 AM   #11
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Plenty of US boats over here; our new little marina has 3 US obvious imports(c`mon guys, change the hailing port), a Luhrs 32, a Riviera 38, and a Bayliner 4588, the Riv is much traveled,built in Australia.
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Old 06-22-2015, 07:33 AM   #12
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They tend to go in your direction much more than we get yours. The Clipper would fit. The Integrity short of speed. The two Australian boats we see most here are Maritimo and Riviera.
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:45 AM   #13
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Looks like every other boat made by anyone today with few exceptions. I would not own a boat with those sloping greenhouse front windows over the inside helm. In The PNW maybe but not in FL.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:26 PM   #14
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Looks like every other boat made by anyone today with few exceptions. I would not own a boat with those sloping greenhouse front windows over the inside helm. In The PNW maybe but not in FL.
What boat are you referring to in your post?
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Old 06-22-2015, 08:47 PM   #15
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They tend to go in your direction much more than we get yours. The Clipper would fit. The Integrity short of speed. The two Australian boats we see most here are Maritimo and Riviera.
Notice the Maritimo/Riviera similarity? Bill Barry Cotter started Maritimo after he sold off Riviera, after he sold off Mariner. The US import business is much less active since the AUD dived against the USD.
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Old 06-23-2015, 10:54 AM   #16
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As an owner, I love the Bayliner 4788. You can buy nice ones (1997 or newer) for $200-250K. I saw the SeaRay L series at the Seattle Boat Show and the sticker was around a million dollars. A friend of mine is a builder who likes to buy an occasional older home with good "bones" and fix up the interior and sell it for a profit. He calls it "lipsticking." You could take a 4788 and lipstick it with $150K of interior upgrades and have (IMHO) a prettier, more functional boat than the SeaRay. At least here in the PNW where a great pilothouse makes year-round cruising a joy.

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Old 06-23-2015, 11:00 AM   #17
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I think what keeps the new boat market going is people who love warranties and would rather make payments than arrange for repairs.


My grandfather was like that with cars and a few friends with boats.


Every few years trade in and trade up....


As many have stated on here through the years...thankfully that keeps the pipeline of used boats moving...the bad news is were are more subject to what is coming in at the new end of the pipeline...even if we don't like that style that is popular.
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:29 AM   #18
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I was referring to SR L 590
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:43 AM   #19
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I think what keeps the new boat market going is people who love warranties and would rather make payments than arrange for repairs.


My grandfather was like that with cars and a few friends with boats.


Every few years trade in and trade up....


As many have stated on here through the years...thankfully that keeps the pipeline of used boats moving...the bad news is were are more subject to what is coming in at the new end of the pipeline...even if we don't like that style that is popular.
There are those completely irrational ones of us who have no mechanical inclination and prefer new to old, for warranty's and lesser maintenance/ predictable maintenance. Now we may differ a bit from your prototype. I've never purchased a car or boat that wasn't new. However, I do not trade either in or up with the frequency many do. I've only owned 6 personal cars, with the first at the age of 16, (I distinguish as do have some cars in businesses) and my wife has owned 4 in her life (first of those four was used and bought from a friend for nearly nothing when she was 18). Plus one of my six is still being used in the family. We do share another car for when we must have a practical vehicle. I imagine we'll keep our current cars for 10 years or more. We maintain cars and boats diligently so they last and remain in excellent condition.

Now we recognize all the arguments for buying used and acknowledge they all are very logical and make sense. We just choose not to. As to keeping the pipeline going, rest assured when we do sell they will be in excellent condition.

Prior to 2012 and moving to the coast (no comment on since then), dealing just with small lake boats, I'd owned 5 boats starting at the age of 13. Three Sea Rays and Two Cobalts. Had we not moved we'd still own the second Cobalt.

How did i get started buying new? Guess from my parents who always did. My wife only owned one car prior to our wedding and she bought that used. Her new just started with me.
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:49 AM   #20
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I was referring to SR L 590
I can't speak to the 590 Windows. As to the 650, the windows in the lower helm were not bad. I do know what you're talking about on sloping windows though. The boat I was on that was worst at the lower helm and I really felt vision was impaired (if one chose that option which few apparently do) was the current Hatteras MY series.

As to looking like other boats, I suppose to a point. In General many brands look much alike with just small differences.
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