Newer vs Older....

[kchace]

"So what say you? Will I spend a lot more time in the engine room on an older boat?"

I say No. Most DIESEL engines used in boats for the last 40 or more years are very reliable. So are the transmissions.

ALL boats require quite a bit of regular maintenance - old or new. There are many many systems in a boat, many more than any house plus boats are used (or not used) in a very harsh environment. A boat of almost any age that has been regularly and properly maintained will not have a lot of breakdowns.

Ken

 

[Pete Meisinger]

My trawler is older, more like 35 years. A curious line in your post was about "time in the engine room" I really don't think a newer boat requires much less time in the engine room. If something breaks it must be fixed but most of the systems in the engine room are pretty tough. Maintenance time is the same for new or old. Filters, oil changes, pump impellers, etc.

Where you will spend more time, effort and money on an older boat is topside. Teak deteriorates, vinyl rots, paint and even gelcoat degrades and needs polish and wax, carpets and runners get worn and dirty, the microwave and ice maker have a lifetime of only a few years, lines get worn and the list goes on and on. Fortunately most of the topside work is non technical and just requires boat owner labor (unless you have deep pockets and can hire it all done) For me it's a labor of Love..

Welcome Aboard,

pete

 

[Art]

About the twin - easy to maneuver coming to a dock and if one "give up" still have another to got home. In strong current twin are better too, but never run on one engine to save a fuel - you will mess up the transmission. The cost of maintenance is higher, but you will have the power when need.

Borg Warner Velvet Drive trany can free wheel at relitively slow speeds and not over heat interior parts. Also, for operating one of two engines there are ways to lock the dorment engine's shaft on rigs that should not have their trany free wheel.

Check with trany mfg before free wheeling a trany.

 

[Art]

garychurch wrote;
“Talk to any number of experienced boatyards and many will say there are just as many problems with new boats as old ones.”

In the seventies I worked on production boats in the shop at Uniflite in Bellingham Wa US. One of the old hands told me that most boats suffered more use and abuse during construction than in the rest of their life. I’m sure he was exaggerating but workers put things in the wrong places and many mistakes were made. These workers wern’t as much boatbuilders but installers. Just backing up a fork lift can do some damage. Ect Ect.

The Navy boats were better. They were all the same.

But most pleasure boats were very custom builds. Almost everything in the boats was spect’d out by the buyers. No boat was the same. When I was there demand was up and boats were popping out the door. Boats were selling for more that people paid for them a year later. Must have been the “heyday” of PNW boatbuilding.
And I think Uniflite was one of the better builders so perhaps “I haven’t seen nut’in”

Agreed! "... Uniflite was one of the better builders..."

I owned 1973 31' Uni sedan. Twin screw gasser. Well built, comfortable in seas, well laid out interior and fast!

 

[Art]

I could not agree more as that has been my strategy & maintenance program for years. I never get all the money back that I have poured into boats but when I sell them I do get a little over high market prices & the buyer gets a great boat!

Ya can die with just the memory of constantly looking to put more 0's on a ledger... Or, ya can die with thousands of fun time memories of what spending those 0's enabled you to do! I/we chose the latter!

MOF, just purchased a really cool RV so we can visit points throughout the country while traveling to visit our extended family in Maine, Texas, NY, and Oregon.

In the meantime... through additional use of those "0's"... this Memorial Day weekend we plan to spend 5 days anchored out, swimming n' playing... aboard our Tollycraft... with tow behind runabout cruising to visit friends and go to other fun places in SF Delta's warm freshwater.

 

[Art]

I lost my boat to 3 experienced boater "playing" with gas. They blow -up their boat and burn mine. Couple years ago, while looking for a boat, I was looking at gas boat. The owner was so happy to show me that engines will start and he forgot (or did not know) to turn the blowers on. I did not know that I can run that fast away. Gasoline boats are dangerus - ticking time bomb.

I liken gasoline in my boats to bullets in my guns. The only way they will mame or kill me and/or others is if I handle/maintain them incorrectly. To own guns or gas boats a person should be qualified in the handling/maintenance thereof.

 

[rsn48]

I will start with my two homes. The first home my wife and I bought, the second home we inherited. The first home was so bad my mother refused to come into it. We owned it for 12 years and with the increased equity, took out a large loan and rebuilt it from the studs up, and a second floor was added and a new addition on one side of the house also installed. A 900 square foot home became 2,600.

This house was in a well off area in North Vancouver which meant we did okay when we sold it in 2016. Before moving in to the inherited house, I bought an older Winnebago motorhome where my wife and I lived for eight months while that house was taken back to studs, some rooms modified, new everything including plumbing and electrical, heat pump added, hooked up to natural gas and gas appliances added with a tankless hot water system.

Same thing with a bike I bought. I wanted a three thousand dollar bike but I didn't want to pay that much so I bought an older Specialized Tarmac Comp (carbon fiber frame), added new tires and wheels from Italy, new Shimano Dura Ace compact in the front, new shifters, etc.

In other words, these old things were brought back to life, I got more for less and because of re-designs and re-equipping, they became "my and my wife's" home, the bike became "my" bike.

I've done the same with the boat I purchased which is at least 50 years old this year (might even be 55 years old) but the basic bones of the boat, so to speak, were solid. I have had the boat completely gutted. Amazingly the hull is original build fiberglass over wood and other than one small spot on the transom, found after the engine and leg were removed, the entire boat hull and top side, also wood, is free of mold and rot.

If you are going this route, you are probably better off with a single engine with bow and maybe stern thruster, than two engines. So others are warning you about plumbing, fuel and water tanks, etc. But who cares, I have removed those and replaced with new equipment. Some new storage as been added, a smaller Norco dedicated freezer added, new stove/oven, new head, new cushions, new deck covering inside and out, new electronics, new rib and 9.9 Yamaha, new davits, raised and widen'd swim platform. Even the dinette table has been replaced with what I specified as an "eye candy" table. Efoy and new Firefly batteries for my house bank and new bow thruster. The engine although about 60 pounds heavier but the leg significantly lighter, the horse power has been increased by 50 % (express cruiser with semi-displacement hull), the fuel tanks have been increased by 60% (but the old head holding tank removed and a composting toilet installed thus allowing the new gas tanks to take up that weight.

If you have the cash or line of credit, and lets say your budget is $250,000 you might be better served with a $40,000 and $210,000 refit. In my case, I can honestly say every square inch on my boat has been gone over in one fashion or another. I know that everything is new, does what I want it to do and will last for a decent amount of time. If you go this route, rebuild or replace the engine (why a single engine boat is better = cheaper to rebuild or replace). Some, including my refitter, told me not to replace the engine and leg, but after everything was dismantled it was clear replacement was the way to go. If you have work done on the engine or replace it, there is a piece of mind knowing it shouldn't be an issue for a long time. This piece of mind is invaluable in marginal conditions on the water. And don't be afraid to go older as long as the bones of the boat are decent. Heck a 20 year old boat is almost new... lol!

 

[Art]

I will start with my two homes. The first home my wife and I bought, the second home we inherited. The first home was so bad my mother refused to come into it. We owned it for 12 years and with the increased equity, took out a large loan and rebuilt it from the studs up, and a second floor was added and a new addition on one side of the house also installed. A 900 square foot home became 2,600.

This house was in a well off area in North Vancouver which meant we did okay when we sold it in 2016. Before moving in to the inherited house, I bought an older Winnebago motorhome where my wife and I lived for eight months while that house was taken back to studs, some rooms modified, new everything including plumbing and electrical, heat pump added, hooked up to natural gas and gas appliances added with a tankless hot water system.

Same thing with a bike I bought. I wanted a three thousand dollar bike but I didn't want to pay that much so I bought an older Specialized Tarmac Comp (carbon fiber frame), added new tires and wheels from Italy, new Shimano Dura Ace compact in the front, new shifters, etc.

In other words, these old things were brought back to life, I got more for less and because of re-designs and re-equipping, they became "my and my wife's" home, the bike became "my" bike.

I've done the same with the boat I purchased which is at least 50 years old this year (might even be 55 years old) but the basic bones of the boat, so to speak, were solid. I have had the boat completely gutted. Amazingly the hull is original build fiberglass over wood and other than one small spot on the transom, found after the engine and leg were removed, the entire boat hull and top side, also wood, is free of mold and rot.

If you are going this route, you are probably better off with a single engine with bow and maybe stern thruster, than two engines. So others are warning you about plumbing, fuel and water tanks, etc. But who cares, I have removed those and replaced with new equipment. Some new storage as been added, a smaller Norco dedicated freezer added, new stove/oven, new head, new cushions, new deck covering inside and out, new electronics, new rib and 9.9 Yamaha, new davits, raised and widen'd swim platform. Even the dinette table has been replaced with what I specified as an "eye candy" table. Efoy and new Firefly batteries for my house bank and new bow thruster. The engine although about 60 pounds heavier but the leg significantly lighter, the horse power has been increased by 50 % (express cruiser with semi-displacement hull), the fuel tanks have been increased by 60% (but the old head holding tank removed and a composting toilet installed thus allowing the new gas tanks to take up that weight.

If you have the cash or line of credit, and lets say your budget is $250,000 you might be better served with a $40,000 and $210,000 refit. In my case, I can honestly say every square inch on my boat has been gone over in one fashion or another. I know that everything is new, does what I want it to do and will last for a decent amount of time. If you go this route, rebuild or replace the engine (why a single engine boat is better = cheaper to rebuild or replace). Some, including my refitter, told me not to replace the engine and leg, but after everything was dismantled it was clear replacement was the way to go. If you have work done on the engine or replace it, there is a piece of mind knowing it shouldn't be an issue for a long time. This piece of mind is invaluable in marginal conditions on the water. And don't be afraid to go older as long as the bones of the boat are decent. Heck a 20 year old boat is almost new... lol!

I agree - but feel I must add:

If you can locate a used Boat, RV, Car, Truck, Motorcycle, Bicycle, House or most anything else - that has had much of the "re-fit" already correctly accomplished then I advise purchasing that item. Gives you more time to simply have fun!

Additionally, the reasonable price premium you may need to pay for the already re-fitted well used item, in comparison to paying low price for item needing considerable re-fit... will save you oodles of $$$ and untold hours of you supplying "free" work... in the long run!

 

[rsn48]

If you can locate a used Boat, RV, Car, Truck, Motorcycle, Bicycle, House or most anything else - that has had much of the "re-fit" already correctly accomplished then I advise purchasing that item. Gives you more time to simply have fun!

I agree but these items aren't as common as one would believe. And those in the know like you and me snatch them up almost immediately. I outfitted myself with used Fujifilm camera and lenses, all looking brand new.

Here's an item I'd love to buy, the price is amazing and the vehicle seems to be in good shape. I'm surprised its still on the market:

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2331719240418564/

 

[Art]

If you can locate a used Boat, RV, Car, Truck, Motorcycle, Bicycle, House or most anything else - that has had much of the "re-fit" already correctly accomplished then I advise purchasing that item. Gives you more time to simply have fun!

I agree but these items aren't as common as one would believe. And those in the know like you and me snatch them up almost immediately. I outfitted myself with used Fujifilm camera and lenses, all looking brand new.

Here's an item I'd love to buy, the price is amazing and the vehicle seems to be in good shape. I'm surprised its still on the market:

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2331719240418564/

I smell SCAM!!?? Also, looks like a kit car. That said: If I were in the area I might give a call. Shopping and some selling = FUN.

 

[Northern Spy]

I smell SCAM!!?? That said: If I were in the area I might give a call. Shopping and some selling = FUN.

28K for a VW kit car? Yeah. I'd say it's a scam too. Just not in the way you're thinking.

 

[RT Firefly]

Kit car. $5K max. IMO




Edit: Mr. NS. Says it's built on Mustang II running gear. In that case, $3K.

 

[Art]

28K for a VW kit car? Yeah. I'd say it's a scam too. Just not in the way you're thinking.

Well... this tain't no scam!


Soon I pick up my 1st time repainted "Artic White"1967 Wildcat.

10K miles ago... Had 1967 factory orig 430 ci, 360 hp. engine rebuilt to 400 hp by a pro-builder in his 70's. Still keeping most items as original.

Odometer now reads 35K [i.e. 135K] = Avg 2,596 per yr.

I've owned this fully electric, AC'd KoolCat for 21 yrs. 71,321 miles when I found her in 1998.

Young in early 70's... toured the U.S. for couple years in a 1966 Cat.

Really like these classic "Luxo Muscle Cars"!

 

[BrianSmith]

I think there are more than a few people who would consider the older non-electronic diesels desirable. Perhaps not as fuel efficient, but more easily repaired by an owner.

More easily repaired (by owner or pro), and also less finicky about fuel. Some of us also prefer non-turbocharged engines, or at least those that aren't overly turbocharged (i.e., the lower horsepower-to-cubic inch engines).

 

[rsn48]

I've linked this a couple of times but here is a good article in two parts about diesel versus gas, and general thoughts on motor size and horsepower. This irritates some as it doesn't come to the conclusion of the majority consensus. But if you look at the author's credentials (now deceased), you will see he is well qualified. One of his conclusion in the boating world- a smaller engine doing a big engine job is an engine waiting to fail much earlier than a larger engine doing the same job, not really surprising.

I have repowered, replacing a 240 hp gas engine and Volvo didn't want to sell me their V6 240 hp engine as they felt that although I was matching hp to hp, the smaller displacement of the engine put it at risk.

https://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm

 

[Art]

I've linked this a couple of times but here is a good article in two parts about diesel versus gas, and general thoughts on motor size and horsepower. This irritates some as it doesn't come to the conclusion of the majority consensus. But if you look at the author's credentials (now deceased), you will see he is well qualified. One of his conclusion in the boating world- a smaller engine doing a big engine job is an engine waiting to fail much earlier than a larger engine doing the same job, not really surprising.

I have repowered, replacing a 240 hp gas engine and Volvo didn't want to sell me their V6 240 hp engine as they felt that although I was matching hp to hp, the smaller displacement of the engine put it at risk.

https://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm

Thanks for posting.

Been a decade since I read both [I and II] parts of Pasco's document. Having been ushered into pleasure boating since birth... I'm 67 now... I want to say that David hits many nails on the head in what he reports.

I've pleasure boated with diesels and gassers... like em both, in their respected correct positions/applications.

I hope many on TF will punch up your link and read both parts. What Mr. Pascoe states is correct and what he recommends for maintenance needs can save much $$$ in the long run... regarding diesel and gasoline marine engines.

 

[GraniteStater]

Thanks all - This discussion has been really helpful. It sounds like (similar to my experience with building houses) the first year or two of "new" can be very time consuming. I still work (albeit flexibly) and my 6 year old, 8 year old and wife are my labor of love. When the kids are grown up I'd love to spend more of my time upgrading a boat but for now I'm not willing to sacrifice fun time with the kids to replace a broken .... Insert your favorite item here....

What I'm hearing is that with limited time I'd ideally want something that has been exceptionally well maintained and is probably between 2 and 7 years old. I understand that I will pay a bit more but I hope its a worthwhile trade off for time.

For what its worth, the boss and I have been discussing a bit of a change in plans. We are still going to charter 2 or 3 times in the next year or so. We've got a friend with kids the same age and he has extensive boating experience. They want to join us at least once and maybe twice which should be a great learning experience and a lot of fun.

After that we are debating taking a 6 month sabbatical to cruise with the kids. It will be tricky to make happen but we only go through this life once why not get as much out of it as possible. It likely will happen in a couple of years so the kids aren't too old to pull out of school but will be old enough to learn alongside us. We can hire a training captain for a few weeks and learn as a family. Its scary, and exciting, as all heck to try and figure out how to make this happen.

TF is a wonderful resource and I greatly appreciate all that you offer.

 

[Gordon J]

When cruising with our new Beneteau in the Caribbean 12 years ago I got to know lots of boaters and boats. At the time, our 43 foot Beneteau was 18 months old. Before leaving the states I had spent about $30K getting her blue water ready.

As I talked to boat owners, it became clear to me that there was a minimum amount of money required for a safe, relatively trouble free boat, on a linear foot basis. 12 years I came up with a number that was around $220K for a 42 foot sailboat. In other words! If you bought a 15 year-old 42-foot boat for $150k you would need to invest $70K in the boat to bring it to the standard of my new boat, in which I had spent about $290K, all in.

I came up with this general theory early n our cruising career and refined it as I collected more data.

Fast forward two years we are now back in the US. He is looking for a similarly-sized boat, but wants an older one “that is more sea-worthy” than our new Beneteau. He bought a 20-year-old boat 10 years ago for about $100K. I estimate that he has spent $100K on the boat and has gone through every system, to include new fuel tanks, water tanks! Engine, Rigging, electronics, on- and-on.

My friend has still not significantly sailed the boats and has done little but work on the boat. He thought when he bought the boat that he would be sailing her to Europe in 3-4 years. His newest project is to replace the boat’s refrigeration.

I think you get the idea. My numbers were not scientific, but do give you some idea.

Also, if you are going to use the boat closer to home, you can take risks that those of us using our boats in the Bahamas would not take. In the US you have seatow and ready availability of parts. In the Bahamas not so much.

Three years ago, we bought our Ocean Alexander 456. We got this boat relatively cheaply because it needed a lot of cosmetic work, to include a paint job, top to bottom. which I was willing To do. I also had to wait a year to really use the boat and invested thousands of dollars. Our boat is a 2003.

Now a new boat of that size with two engines! Stabilizers bow thruster! Two genders and a long list of other nice to have stuff would have cost $800k or more, depending on brand. I currently have $230k in the boat. The insurance survey said it was worth much more, after I finished all the cosmetic work.

Hope this provides some food for thought.

Gordon

 

[Art]

Seven steps to happy pleasure boating!!


1. Know the ins and outs of boats
2. Locate well kept used boat
3. Purchase at correct price
4. Do as needed to upgrade boat
5. Insure boat for a bundle
6. Use boat well
7. Sell boat at correct price!


Repeat!!!!

 

[rsn48]

If you are in New Hampshire you can get a lot done on a boat under a tarp car or truck garage type structure (closed at both ends). If you put your boat on the hard from mid-October to the end of May you will have 7 1/2 months to get "stuff" done. And yes I do know how cold New Hampshire can get, living in Chicago, Madison Wis, Montreal, Quebec, Ottawa, Edmonton, etc...., born in Whitehorse Yukon.

 

[Art]

If you are in New Hampshire you can get a lot done on a boat under a tarp car or truck garage type structure (closed at both ends). If you put your boat on the hard from mid-October to the end of May you will have 7 1/2 months to get "stuff" done. And yes I do know how cold New Hampshire can get, living in Chicago, Madison Wis, Montreal, Quebec, Ottawa, Edmonton, etc...., born in Whitehorse Yukon.

1950's, 60' 70's in NY and Maine... we'd build a wood frame and fully cover boats with canvas. Then work inside all winter. Usually had 100K btu propane heater running off a 25 gal tank. Kept plenty of ventilation moving through for breathing-air quality. Even in below "0" days, temps inside the enclosure would hover in high 40's to low 50's... Workable for sure!

Did similar for building new-house masonry brick or stone chimneys back there too. Scaffold all the way up and double wrap in clear 6mil Vis Queen. Flat top [for warning lunch] 100K btu propane heater at the bottom. Up top near V-Queen roof on scaffold it would get hot... even in cold days. In garage we'd plastic over door and windows. Usually with kerosene space heater in direction of sand pile and 55 gal drum of water; lots of ventilation kept open. For night we'd leave a coil water heater at bottom of water drum. Then, fire up the space heater upon morning arrival. For the chimneys we'd leave propane heater running on a lower temp level. For boats... we always turned off the propane heater when not aboard.

 

[charles]

Last but not least, buy the boat that you can USE not the boat that you want.
CCC

 

[Simi 60]

Much rather the lifetime of cruising and maintenance capital in my pocket.
A new plastic version of ours, if such a thing existed would cost 20 times and more than what we paid.

Internally, the only thing real thing we have had to do in 3 years of full time live aboard are house batteries, inverter charger and solar so as to make her suitable for full time cruising.
Engine is very low hours, gearbox is bulletproof, everything is very sound.

Sure, we have a bit of rot in the deck and bulwarks, but its cosmetic, being addressed at my pace and there is pleeeeenty of difference in price to fund it.

 

[Art]

Much rather the lifetime of cruising and maintenance capital in my pocket.
A new plastic version of ours, if such a thing existed would cost 20 times and more than what we paid.

Internally, the only thing real thing we have had to do in 3 years of full time live aboard are house batteries, inverter charger and solar so as to make her suitable for full time cruising.
Engine is very low hours, gearbox is bulletproof, everything is very sound.

Sure, we have a bit of rot in the deck and bulwarks, but its cosmetic, being addressed at my pace and there is pleeeeenty of difference in price to fund it.

What year is your pretty boat?

 

[Simi 60]

70's hull
Everything else around 2005

 

[Corky Row]

Have done both used (to very used) and new. Found that very used boat was constantly needing repairs which seemed to occur when every I wanted to leave for a week or two resulting in staying in slip instead of cruising. did review of annual costs for maintenance and decided to buy 2 year old boat as the average monthly cost of maintenance from old boat added to old boat payment was less than new boat payment and boat was always ready to go and limited issues underway.
Bought quality new boat as I wanted it built to what I wanted and figured it was going to be my last boat so why not go for it. Paid the premium, enjoyed the boat, took good care of it and sold for 5 years later for about 20% less than I paid for it.
Building new boat, planning to be my last one but this time i mean it!

 

[Art]

Have done both used (to very used) and new. Found that very used boat was constantly needing repairs which seemed to occur when every I wanted to leave for a week or two resulting in staying in slip instead of cruising. did review of annual costs for maintenance and decided to buy 2 year old boat as the average monthly cost of maintenance from old boat added to old boat payment was less than new boat payment and boat was always ready to go and limited issues underway.
Bought quality new boat as I wanted it built to what I wanted and figured it was going to be my last boat so why not go for it. Paid the premium, enjoyed the boat, took good care of it and sold for 5 years later for about 20% less than I paid for it.
Building new boat, planning to be my last one but this time i mean it!

Wow... only lost 20% in sale after 5 yrs. Must a been a really nice boat; good job getting that much for it.

Best luck with and in your next final new boat!

 

[Heron]

Seven steps to happy pleasure boating!!


1. Know the ins and outs of boats
2. Locate well kept used boat
3. Purchase at correct price
4. Do as needed to upgrade boat
5. Insure boat for a bundle
6. Use boat well
7. Sell boat at correct price!


Repeat!!!!

Bingo! Done this a few times myself!

 

[rsn48]

Since this thread is done, I can hijack it a bit. I talked many posts back about a car for sale and I thought I would follow up on it. I asked the guy if it was "kit built" and here was his reply:

"Yes it.s a factory built car in Florida by fibrefab that has since gone into bankruptcy. It is fully bc registration. Custom paint & brand new leather interior that was just completely new at a cost of $6500. This is a real eye catching car especially when the sun hits the special paint effects.should wish to view the car."

 

[StarChaser]

GraniteStater,

I'm was in the same situation when I bought Star Chaser. She was an older boat that had had 6 owners with diminishing levels of maintenance and skill until I got her. I bought an older (32 year old) boat that had obvious fuel contamination issues. I was able to correct those issues and begin to correct other more subtle problems (i.e. electrical ground loops, intermittent connections, etc). As long as you have some documentation on whatever work has been done you stand a fair chance of having a good older vessel. If you don't know how she's been maintained, the IMO go for a newer vessel with less chance of mismanagement or poor maintenance would be a safer bet than something older with less documentation.

That said, Star has been on the hard for 18 months trying to get her repaired and back in the water after being fed bad fuel. I bought a load of bad fuel and didn't "catch it". (read your insurance policy's guidelines regarding fuel handling. It might surprise you) As a result, I have had to repair both fuel injector pumps, both sets of fuel injectors, both alternators, and a starter. ~$8000 of far and I still will need to replace the wiring and much of the flooring. Star is an older boat and doesn't have some of the newer more effective systems that newer vessels have as standard equipment. I still plan on keeping her, she has very good bones and is an IMO an excellent layout for a "Great Loop" cruiser. I'll get her through her overhaul, but she'll take a lot of work to make her the boat that I want. Your boat will be "Your Boat" . You'll love her and hate her, but she'll be yours. If she doesn't make you feel like that, then she isn't the right one for you.

StarChaser.