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Old 04-23-2016, 04:16 PM   #21
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I agree, my old link belt out works many newer excavators and it stuck on a barge, for ever. The old Detroit 's in my boat purr like a kitten. On the other hand I buy old because that's all I could afford.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:42 PM   #22
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we rebuild the 8-71's on the tug about every 25-28,000 hours. several (we have 4) are going on 3rd or fourth rebuild on the same block. Screaming Detroit loud, Oil leaking son of a bitches, fuel guzzling muthas! When we cross the Atlantic in winter time I feel like hugging them! We did 4 transatlantics in 13 months. 1 was "crossing season". Reliable is reliable.
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:01 PM   #23
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A brand new boat from the right builder doesn't have all sorts of problems. Still I won't argue that financially three to seven years old makes more sense, even though we buy new.
"All sorts of problems" is relative, and I would agree that a new boat precludes lots of problems that are only possible with used equipment, but from what I have seen, both personally and vicariously, a new boat will have plenty of problems early in its life until everything is thoroughly tested and configured. The best example that of which I have personal knowledge is a "new" 215', $100M boat built by a very highly regarded builder, that lost all propulsion (maybe not thrusters) leaving a marina about 2 months (and 1,000 nm) after delivery.

Though hard to find, I think the optimal intersection of age, reliability and value is a 1-3 year old boat build for and used by a knowledgeable owner.
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:51 PM   #24
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"All sorts of problems" is relative, and I would agree that a new boat precludes lots of problems that are only possible with used equipment, but from what I have seen, both personally and vicariously, a new boat will have plenty of problems early in its life until everything is thoroughly tested and configured. The best example that of which I have personal knowledge is a "new" 215', $100M boat built by a very highly regarded builder, that lost all propulsion (maybe not thrusters) leaving a marina about 2 months (and 1,000 nm) after delivery.

Though hard to find, I think the optimal intersection of age, reliability and value is a 1-3 year old boat build for and used by a knowledgeable owner.
Well, speaking from my experience, every new boat I've purchased has been delivered problem free. We've never lost propulsion or any major equipment. I've taken extended shakedown cruises and have very little on our list upon completion. I recognize problems on new deliveries are common, just not my experience. We do get surveys as well on new boats.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:01 PM   #25
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Been a new boat "acceptance" captain, going over new boats with new owners on delivery day and couldn't event leave the slip in some...and an assistance tower who has towed many a boat on its maiden voyage....

LOTS of new boats have issues.

From day one..all the way through their warranty.

Usually less issues per boat than maybe an older boat maintained in only an OK condition, but certainly aren't all problem free for the expected life of all systems.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:02 PM   #26
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.......but from what I have seen, both personally and vicariously, a new boat will have plenty of problems early in its life until everything is thoroughly tested and configured.
That pretty much sums up my experience with a brand new 2000 Tiara 35 Open. It was 6 months before I felt completely confident that all issues were addressed properly. I will never buy a new boat again! I'll let the first owner take the depreciation bath and face all the commissioning problems.

This boat was 9 years old when I bought it (about 14 months ago) & I'm still
fixing stuff.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:12 PM   #27
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LOTS of new boats have issues.

From day one..all the way through their warranty.
.
And beyond. I agree. Only disagreed with the general statement implying all new boats would have issues. Some brands are delivered in very good shape. I've seen it on all types of boats and all sizes. There was one multi brand boat dealer on the lake and you could depend on his having major issues. Some of the things they did were amazing. When I was a kid they rigged the steering on a runabout backwards so when you turned the wheel left, the boat turned right. The purchaser called them around noon, said he loved the boat, just took him awhile to get use to the steering. The dealer told him to immediately stop using it and bring it in. He said, "We're having too much fun. I'll bring it in Monday morning." The dealer reiterated over and over not to use it. Well, didn't have to worry about bringing it in Monday as going under a bridge, he turned the wrong way and is was last seen sinking there.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:08 PM   #28
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An older boat is a LOT of work. If you are not planning to do most of it yourself, I'd go newer.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:26 PM   #29
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There are good and not so good boats... be they new or used.


Keen eye and substantial marine knowledge is needed to ascertain the difference; usually gained via many years of living the dream!


Thus, marine surveyors exist if oneself is not capable to understand quality/condition levels... at least at first blush.


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Old 04-23-2016, 09:43 PM   #30
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New boats do have problems.
I worked at Uniflite before the blisters (never heard of them then) and an old timer in the shop told me the boats more often than not suffer more use and abuse during construction than they do after.
My last job there was rearranging and relocating tanks, generators .... pretty much everything that was'nt light so as to get the boat to float at rest w/o a list. Basically they were stock boats and basically all custom builds. No boat had all the same stuff. Many installs had to be partly or even completely removed to make room for other installs. All this thrashing about, drilling, grinding, overlaying, buffing ect was a lot of wear and tear. Had a crew of women that went from boat to boat cleaning up after mechanics, electricians, layup people ect. Hard to imagine a boat coming out the door where everything worked properly and was installed correctly ect.

And Uniflite was one of the best boats built in the NW at that time. Art and some others remember that. During the day I remember an aircraft carrier was found to have a machine shop that got all sealed up and nobody knew it existed until some sailor got real curious (decades later) about what was behind a bulkhead. I'm sure there were bilge pumps glassed in totally and were never seen ... only heard. I'm sure they do better now but new cars a few decades ago on average had 23 things wrong w them.

But if I had the money I'd buy a new boat.
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Old 04-24-2016, 12:09 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Though hard to find, I think the optimal intersection of age, reliability and value is a 1-3 year old boat build for and used by a knowledgeable owner.
And...who has bottomless pockets, so got all the 'fixes' and 'mod cons' done with the best materials, equipment, and tradesmen. Because all boats, even brand new, still have 'must-haves' added by the new owner, even though they thought they had thought of everything in the ordering and commissioning, even if there are no significant fault type issues to sort out. So, I agree, a near new boat, about 2-3 years out is most likely to be truly turn key and go, with nothing extra needed, and has suffered the most major depreciation, and therefore probably constitutes the 'best buy'. I was never well-heeled enough to take my own advice however...
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Old 04-24-2016, 01:49 AM   #32
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If it were me...

I'd buy a boat that has several years (not just 1-3) of actually doing what you want to do with the boat.

For example if I were in the market for a passagemaker I'd want a boat that had actually beeen used for passagemaking.

That way you're getting a boat that doesn't just represent the Previous Owners dreams of cruising. You'd be getting a boat that had actually been cruising. It would have all the "stuff" on it that the owners had decided they actually needed for that type of cruising.
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Old 04-24-2016, 01:59 AM   #33
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In the OP's example newer will generally be the better option. Although with the right boat you can do well either way. In recent times a few TF members have really nailed it with their purchases. A patient and persistent search is required and it might take quite a long time.

As others have noted, and as one who bought an older boat, I can tell you that there will always be stuff other than the big items (engine) that will eat away at your bank balance. You are unlikely to save any money at all to end up at the same condition and reliability.

Even worse, after the spend your boat value for insurance won't be much above what you paid initially, despite whatever you have spent. Market value is typically the only cover you can get for an older boat. You should end up with a very safe boat in terms of fire risk, but could get caught up in a marina fire and be seriously out of pocket afterwards. Frankly, post-refit that's my biggest concern.

With hindsight what would I have done? Newer boat.
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:07 AM   #34
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With hindsight what would I have done? Newer boat.
Thanks for that hurtfully honest answer Brian. If I'd had the moola I'd say and do the same thing. As it was I bought the boat my cash would buy, so it was a debt free vessel, and I have deliberately tried to keep costs down as I refurbished. However, yes, I have paid out at least 50% more in doing so, which I won't now get back. But for the GFC, I'd have been able to sell her for more than I paid for her, some years ago, but alas, held onto her too long, and not now to be. Bummer, eh?
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:12 AM   #35
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Australia is a lot different to US boats are hard to find and we have a very poor quality boats to choose from but if you purchase a 30 yo 32' for $80k and spend $30k you have a boat that's worth $70 in a few years .If you purchase a 10 yo same design for $180k you should be able to sell in a few years for $160 k at least that's what I tell the wife
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:39 AM   #36
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Well, speaking from my experience, every new boat I've purchased has been delivered problem free. We've never lost propulsion or any major equipment. I've taken extended shakedown cruises and have very little on our list upon completion. I recognize problems on new deliveries are common, just not my experience. We do get surveys as well on new boats.
New or newer boats carefully vetted has worked well for us too. It seems easier to keep up a newer boat than to fix up and maintain an older vessel. If you have the funds, go new(er) is my vote.
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Old 04-24-2016, 04:32 AM   #37
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Bought Bay Pelican 17 years ago when she was 14 years old. Have spent more than the initial purchase price in improvements.

17 years later I am replacing systems I installed, hoses, radios, pumps, etc.

If I had bought new I would have spent even more money and would now have a 17 year old boat and would be replacing the same systems.

If Bay Pelican were on the market someone could buy a competent well maintained Krogen 42 for less than 1/4 the price of a new Krogen 44 equipped the same. The new Krogen would have less teak, aluminum doors and newer wiring. Its insurance bill would be double or triple that of Bay Pelican.

10 years from now I don't know which would be more expensive to have owned. It is hard to believe however that the new boat would not depreciate by more than today's value of the Bay Pelican. And at ten years out all sorts of systems would need to be replaced.

A comment on keeping a boat 10 years or longer. You can fix things when they break or you can replace items as their service life expires. The old adage "if it isn't broke don't fix it" may result in the break occurring when you are 50 miles offshore.

I have a number of stories where I was replacing something before it broke that when I was removing it I found it was on its last legs.
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Old 04-24-2016, 06:15 AM   #38
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Bought Bay Pelican 17 years ago when she was 14 years old. Have spent more than the initial purchase price in improvements.

17 years later I am replacing systems I installed, hoses, radios, pumps, etc.

If I had bought new I would have spent even more money and would now have a 17 year old boat and would be replacing the same systems.

If Bay Pelican were on the market someone could buy a competent well maintained Krogen 42 for less than 1/4 the price of a new Krogen 44 equipped the same. The new Krogen would have less teak, aluminum doors and newer wiring. Its insurance bill would be double or triple that of Bay Pelican.

10 years from now I don't know which would be more expensive to have owned. It is hard to believe however that the new boat would not depreciate by more than today's value of the Bay Pelican. And at ten years out all sorts of systems would need to be replaced.

A comment on keeping a boat 10 years or longer. You can fix things when they break or you can replace items as their service life expires. The old adage "if it isn't broke don't fix it" may result in the break occurring when you are 50 miles offshore.

I have a number of stories where I was replacing something before it broke that when I was removing it I found it was on its last legs.

A lot of very good points here by Marty. During my refit a good part of the increased scope of work was related to preventative maintenance, and finding stuff very much on last legs was a frequent occurrence.

I just can't see that buying a new boat will end up better financially than one in the 3-7 year age range when you buy it. Quality of fitted components will be key: some might have a 10 year service life, but you ought to be able to get at least 15 years if done right first time. I fear that in an effort to contain costs some new builds do install the cheaper and shorter life options. During refit you get a choice of the quality you install, of course it comes with a cost if you go for top quality.
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Old 04-24-2016, 06:21 AM   #39
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I did just think of another possible reason to favor newer (albeit not necessarily new) over older, and it has to do with some specific features that may not have been available or popular in older designs.


For example, we have stairs to the bridge -- not a ladder. That didn't mean we had to buy new, just newer.


Another example might be about pod drives, should that be a feature one wants. Or a full-beam master in a boat style (like ours, for example) that would not otherwise support that. And sometimes these kinds of features are slightly co-dependent; a full-beam master might be possible in a boat only slight larger than ours... if it also has pod drives so the engines are located further aft.


Some of my example aren't particularly applicable to common "trawler" designs, of course...


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Old 04-24-2016, 06:32 AM   #40
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"When I was a kid they rigged the steering on a runabout backwards so when you turned the wheel left, the boat turned right."

This is how sailing ships were steered , it reflected the tiller movement and was "natural" before cars were invented.

One thought on a boat with a super new high tech hull,,, it might be very difficult to repair.

An old hand layup in GRP is not that big a deal for an understanding workman ,

but carbon fiber + epoxy resin infused might be a very different story.
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