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Old 06-29-2017, 05:34 PM   #1
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New (used) boat thread

We're currently researching Puget Sound cruiser/live aboard's, and would welcome feedback on based on what you're learned, what would you buy if you were going to purchase another boat.
Budget anywhere from 100k to 300k, 40' to 55', prefer displacement or semi displacement design, twin economical diesels, large capacity tanks, sturdy build, plan on doing the Inside Passage, maybe port hop south during winter.
Worked for a living on the salt when younger, harbormaster, coastal rescue boat pilot, sports fishing skipper on a 65' twin screw William Gardner design, have thousands of hours in the open ocean behind me.
Electronics were basic back then, radar, depth recorder, and Loran C was pretty much all we had, made do. So have to start from scratch learning all the new marvelous instrumentation (what I would have given for a chart plotter), understanding every skipper has to know how to navigate/dead reckon their way to port if every electronic on board failed.
Whereas looking at pictures and specs on the YachtWorld does provide some snapshots on layout and apparent comfort on various makes and models, it does not address actual usability and reliability.
So, if you're willing to share, would appreciate your new boat thoughts..
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Old 06-29-2017, 05:47 PM   #2
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Not a lot of full displacement twin engine boats in that size range. Maybe a single with a wing engine for redundancy. Kadey Krogen 39 or 42 would be an option. Willard 40 would be another. All are normally single engine that you might be able to add a wing to.

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Old 06-29-2017, 05:58 PM   #3
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LCC, welcome.

For this part of the country I would want a pilothouse design with a covered aft cockpit. I also think that a single provides a bit more protection from rocks or logs than twins. A Kadey Krogen would be a nice option as Ted mentioned if the layouts suit your needed (they didn't for us).

We went with a North Pacific 43 and have been very happy. Definitely an SD hull and single.
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Old 06-29-2017, 05:58 PM   #4
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Greetings,
Welcome aboard.
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Old 06-29-2017, 06:24 PM   #5
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thnx..do understand how a single shaft prop is protected by the keel, and a bow thruster helps with docking maneuverability.
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Old 06-29-2017, 06:41 PM   #6
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Well...
  • 47' hull length, 53' OAL
  • Three staterooms
  • Two heads, both with showers, one with a bath tub as well.
  • Semi displacement design with cruise capability up to about 15 knots if you want.
  • Twin diesel engines, with Real life fuel economy of upwards of 1.5NMPG
  • Large fuel tanks making for more than 600NM range at 8 knots
  • Pilothouse design with covered cockpit, made for the PACNW conditions.
  • Three level liveaboard friendly design, with short straight staircases, no more than three steps
  • Interior flying bridge access
  • Large boat deck with 750 lb crane for skiff deployment.
  • Long production run with hundreds of units made and continous improvements along the way
  • Designed and built in Washington state.
  • Late model units priced from a tad less than $200K to around $250K

Presenting the Bayliner 4788 and Meridian 490

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Old 06-29-2017, 07:08 PM   #7
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want
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:16 PM   #8
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Well...
  • 47' hull length, 53' OAL
  • Three staterooms
  • Two heads, both with showers, one with a bath tub as well.
  • Semi displacement design with cruise capability up to about 15 knots if you want.
  • Twin diesel engines, with Real life fuel economy of upwards of 1.5NMPG
  • Large fuel tanks making for more than 600NM range at 8 knots
  • Pilothouse design with covered cockpit, made for the PACNW conditions.
  • Three level liveaboard friendly design, with short straight staircases, no more than three steps
  • Interior flying bridge access
  • Large boat deck with 750 lb crane for skiff deployment.
  • Long production run with hundreds of units made and continous improvements along the way
  • Designed and built in Washington state.
  • Late model units priced from a tad less than $200K to around $250K

Presenting the Bayliner 4788 and Meridian 490

very nice boat, like both the looks and the layout.
how is the construction on these?
Collision bulkhead up front?
Hand laid or chopper gun?
How are they reinforced?
Head space in the engine room?
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:50 PM   #9
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Look at Powerboat Guide. They have hundreds of boats in their database with specs and usually a layout line drawing with a small review of the boat.
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:13 PM   #10
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Almost all of my time is twins, ships and boats. At least 100's of hours in areas logs frequent. I like the reliability of twins, but in more than 50 years have come in on one engine only twice. Both were old lines picked up in the wheel. My single screw time is tugs. It's just different thing to learn and overcome. I never had the need for thrusters. I view them as just another piece of equipment that's expensive to buy and fix. I have repaired dozens of thrusters for other people. I live on an 83'x17' boat w/twins and have no docking problems. Mostly solo.
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:55 PM   #11
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Bayliner and Meridian History and Updates

from a brokers perspective, some very good info on the Bayliner/Meridian vessels, built in the same shop at different times.
Broker is much more the fan of the 4788, calls out 'over time' issues with the smaller boats in the Bayliner series, and also has a cautionary on leaking windlass sealent on the 4788 that can lead to serious delam issues.

Also talk about MAN diesels , and their '1000 hour' service requirements..which once I researched, turns out can cost 10K to 15K per engine, which is why customers prefer Cummins..no kidding.
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:58 PM   #12
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very nice boat, like both the looks and the layout.
how is the construction on these?
Collision bulkhead up front?
Hand laid or chopper gun?
How are they reinforced?
Head space in the engine room?
The construction is hand laid, and I think vacume bagged.

Here s a photo of a hull section.



The hull is cored with impermeable material. This means that the hull is insulated, and does not sweat in cold weather like some boats I've been on.
Before saying "id never have a cored hull" take note that this is the most popular boat ever made in its size range in terms of number produced. There have been no reports of delamination or hull falure except of course if you fling the boat on shore in a hurricane or hit a rock at full speed, which can kill any boat.

There is a large bulkhead separating the anchor locker of course, then watertight bulkheads both fore and aft of the "utility room".

I have no clue how they are reinforced. I am not a naval engineer. I dont't even think of that kind of stuff.

The engine room is just like 90% of all boats in this size range. The engine room is below the salon sole. There are hatches that open up in between the engines, and over the top of them. I'd say good access, but not like a full on stand up engine room.

There is also a "utilty room" which is accessed by lifting up the stairs going to the cabin level. This room has the water heater, valving, filters, pumps, etc... A complete separate equipment room.

The 4788 is the latest in the line of 4588, then 4788 boats that were started manufactire in about 1984. My recomendation for any boat is to buy ther newest years in the model series as there are always "bugs" to be worked out, and improvements in materials and manufacturing processes.

Good hunting...
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:57 PM   #13
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thanks, Kevin, good info, much appreciated.

Bulkheads sound right, and 1.5" of solid hand laid fiberglass wrapping a 1" core is solid construction. Only issue with core construction is making sure all through hull fittings are periodically resealed, as any leaks will get sucked into the core, weaken it, and can start delamming the glass. (have worked with fibreglass and poly/epoxy resins for decades).



Checked out a 42' GB Classic, walking the flybridge, could feel the floor flex, see the glass lifting and dropping with the flex on the starboard side where it had lost adhesion to the underlayment, got some grief for pointing it out.

Fully agree on 'newest' models - the newer the boat, usually the better the materials, as the glass, resins and structural components continue(d) to improve with each generation. Designers often tweak the designs as well to improve hull efficiency and layout usability.

On the other hand, would rather have an older boat that has been meticulously maintained than a newer one not so..
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:12 PM   #14
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The only thing not to like about these boats is the thought of single handed docking. It's the price paid for the awesome salon
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:12 PM   #15
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thanks, Kevin, good info, much appreciated.


On the other hand, would rather have an older boat that has been meticulously maintained than a newer one not so..
Absolutly!

I took a walk along the dock tonight, and like normal there are several late model boats that have not had anybody aboard since winter layup last fall. Who knows what works on these boats.

On the other hand I (a typical person that actually uses their boat) have spent a full month aboard and put 50 or so hours on the engines and much more than that on the generator. I have also used the head, and the showers, and all the other stuff on the boat. Everything works as it should. Maintenance has been performed. Oil changes, impellers, bad or weak pumps changed out, wipers replaced. Lots of little stuff.
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:55 PM   #16
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LCC, a Bayliner 4788 is a lot of boat for the money and has many of the features you are looking for. There are always some for sale in the PNW.
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:21 AM   #17
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Another owner, and fan, of the 4788. Huge salon for the size of the boat. Bayliner built the boat with quality components: Cummins engines, Hurth transmissions, Raytheon radar, Perko fittings, etc. Walk the docks and check one out. A side bonus, the Bayliner owners website, www.baylinerownersclub.org, is a fantastic resource. Member-funded and chock full of expertise.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:36 AM   #18
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Absolutly!

I took a walk along the dock tonight, and like normal there are several late model boats that have not had anybody aboard since winter layup last fall. Who knows what works on these boats.

On the other hand I (a typical person that actually uses their boat) have spent a full month aboard and put 50 or so hours on the engines and much more than that on the generator. I have also used the head, and the showers, and all the other stuff on the boat. Everything works as it should. Maintenance has been performed. Oil changes, impellers, bad or weak pumps changed out, wipers replaced. Lots of little stuff.

checked out your web page, how you have prepared the boat to meet your needs is impressive, top notch gear with critical point redundancy.

Question on repowering your vessel - 'original Cummins were approaching end of life'..how many hours were on yours, and if properly maintained, what are the general expectations for max useful life hours for the Cummins put in by Bayliner?

When I ran commercial sportsfishing boats, the older boats had tens of thousands of hours on our 6-71's and were still fully serviceable with proper maintenance.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:14 AM   #19
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checked out your web page, how you have prepared the boat to meet your needs is impressive, top notch gear with critical point redundancy.

Question on repowering your vessel - 'original Cummins were approaching end of life'..how many hours were on yours, and if properly maintained, what are the general expectations for max useful life hours for the Cummins put in by Bayliner?

When I ran commercial sportsfishing boats, the older boats had tens of thousands of hours on our 6-71's and were still fully serviceable with proper maintenance.
Bayliner propped the 4788 from the factory with 24"X24" bronze props. This resulted in the boat being able to make WOT throttle RPM lightly loaded.

Load up the boat with stuff, get a couple of years on the bottom paint, hot day, and the boat is over propped.

Couple that with the fact that Cummins used to recommend running the 330 Hp engines at a WOT -200 cruise RPM resulted in operation at very near, or even at full throttle for extended periods of time.

Time has shown that the Cummins 6BTA5.9 at 330 horsepower does not last long in these conditions. This is not a Bayliner issue, it is an issue that has resulted in many, many rebuilds and repowers of Cummins equipped boats.

I bought my boat at a discount because it had one engine with high blowby. Instead of taking a chance on the other engine I decided to re-power the boat with factory reman Cummins engines. I also re-propped the boat and am running 21" pitch props, which results in lighter loading on the engines, and hopefully a long life.

When looking at ANY Cummins equipped 330 HP engine powered boat I would not rely on a engine survey alone. This is just a snapshot of the engine, and it does not tell where the engine sits in its expected lifespan. The critical measurement, blowby is only a "meets specifications" reading.

I would look at how the boat is propped. Can it make WOT with some extra? I would look at log book entries detailing the fuel used, which will indicate how hard the engines were run. Short of this data, sometimes a simple question to the owner as to "how do you like to cruise the boat, fast or slow" will provide some data.

All that said, the Cummins engine is very good and reliable if it s not run at near WOT for extended periods of time. A 4788 for example with factory 24" props that was cruised at displacement speeds is going to get a very long life from the engines.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:25 AM   #20
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"what would you buy if you were going to purchase another boat.
Budget anywhere from 100k to 300k, 40' to 55', prefer displacement or semi displacement design, twin economical diesels, large capacity tanks, sturdy build, plan on doing the Inside Passage, maybe port hop south during winter."


I am on the other coast but my choice for purchase was a Bayliner 4788. Before the 47 we had owned two Bayliner 4588's the predecessor to the 47 and found them all to be a great fit for us. So all in all about 25+ years with these pilothouse boats.
Kevin's comments are also right on point regarding engine life on any of these 'newer' 6 cyl 4 stroke diesels.
Good luck with your search
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