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03-26-2016, 01:05 AM
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#41
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM
I had a 2006 Yamaha 9.9 on my Avon RIB. It was the MOST unreliable OB I have ever owned. In the shop at least twice a year to get the carb cleaned or rebuilt. Finally, a whole new carb. That's absolute BS. As it turns out, this model is well known for being hard to start due to the miniscule jets and passages in the carb.
As it turns out, I had an almost unused 1996 Evinrude Yachtwin 9.9 electric-start 2-stroke in storage, but it had a 20" shaft so I bought a standard 15" shaft, shift rod and a new water pump and shortened it. After 4 years in storage, it started on the second pull. Then I connected the battery, it started instantly. It's 20 lb lighter and I am much happier. I really like the electric start too. I use a small lawnmower battery for starting. The Avon is somewhat faster too, especially getting on plane.
In all fairness to Yamaha, apparently I just didn't use it often enough. Ethanol strikes again! I'm sure if I had used it weekly, or even monthly I would have experienced many fewer problems. The larger Yammy's do not have this problem, just the 9.9 and 15 apparently.
I think small, carbureted 4-stroke outboards leave a lot to be desired. They just can't compete with 2-strokes. I have heard that some of these smaller motors have, or will soon have fuel injection which should solve the reliability issue.
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Two comments. First, I think there's a lot of change in those engines in the last ten years. I still don't know if that would address the problems you encountered but not at all surprised about the issues in 2006. Second, ethanol. Is non-ethanol not available in your area? I ask simply because I know it isn't in some areas, but here is South Florida we have no problem getting ethanol free gas. I'm not aware of any marina in South Florida that sells gas with ethanol.
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03-26-2016, 03:06 AM
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#42
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Guru
City: Campbell River
Vessel Name: Okisollo
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 783
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In BC the only non-ethanol gas I have heard of is
Chevron supreme (94 octane?)
Ted
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03-26-2016, 07:27 AM
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#43
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Guru
City: Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Vessel Name: Moana Huaka'i
Vessel Model: Selene 53
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 816
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In NJ all gas is ethanol. We're switching from a carbureted 40hp outboard to a fuel injected one. Maybe the change will make the ethanol issue a bit less of a hassle. It was a good deal, actually I ended up selling the old engine for the cost of the new one. Gotta love that deal!
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03-26-2016, 08:55 AM
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#44
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Guru
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB
Let's compare.
Pluses for 4 stroke
Quieter
Run smoother and idle smoother
Run well at slow speeds
No mixing gas and oil
Less pollution
Reliable
The Future
2 strokes
Lighter
Better acceleration
More people knowledgeable in repair although that is rapidly changing
More torque at same HP.
I will say this. In larger HP outboards, 4 strokes have been accepted much better than in smaller units. The overall performance and dependability is considered, by most knowledgeable people I've talked to, to be an improvement.
The big opposition to four strokes has come under 50 HP and especially under 20 HP. I think two reasons. Weight and low end torque. They don't plane a dinghy as well. Second, is that a lot of small outboard users are either DIY or use mechanics who are not part of a large yard and not going to school regularly. So, both are much more comfortable with the old that they know well.
I would also say that the four strokes today are much better than those when they were introduced. Two strokes had a 70 year or more head start, but as time passes the refinements and changes needed on the four strokes are taking place.
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Sounds like Windows 10 - Wait to purchase till after they get the bugggs worked out! - LOL
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03-26-2016, 08:56 AM
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#45
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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I have had lots of little two strokes, and a few four strokes in the 10hp class. Strongly prefer the two's in this size. The weight, bulky size, vibration, tough pull starting and finicky carbs of the fours make them undesireable.
They need to go to tiny three cyl with efi to get me to like them, and if they did that the cost would be too high.
EPA should allow two strokes in this class.
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03-26-2016, 09:13 AM
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#46
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Guru
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM
I had a 2006 Yamaha 9.9 on my Avon RIB. It was the MOST unreliable OB I have ever owned. In the shop at least twice a year to get the carb cleaned or rebuilt. Finally, a whole new carb. That's absolute BS. As it turns out, this model is well known for being hard to start due to the miniscule jets and passages in the carb.
As it turns out, I had an almost unused 1996 Evinrude Yachtwin 9.9 electric-start 2-stroke in storage, but it had a 20" shaft so I bought a standard 15" shaft, shift rod and a new water pump and shortened it. After 4 years in storage, it started on the second pull. Then I connected the battery, it started instantly. It's 20 lb lighter and I am much happier. I really like the electric start too. I use a small lawnmower battery for starting. The Avon is somewhat faster too, especially getting on plane.
In all fairness to Yamaha, apparently I just didn't use it often enough. Ethanol strikes again! I'm sure if I had used it weekly, or even monthly I would have experienced many fewer problems. The larger Yammy's do not have this problem, just the 9.9 and 15 apparently.
I think small, carbureted 4-stroke outboards leave a lot to be desired. They just can't compete with 2-strokes. I have heard that some of these smaller motors have, or will soon have fuel injection which should solve the reliability issue.
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03-26-2016, 09:30 AM
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#47
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Guru
City: League City, TX
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,069
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BandB
For some reason, there is almost no ethanol-free gas available near me, only E10. Many refineries though . . go figure!
I found one speed shop 40 miles away that sells it as 'racing' gas at about $7/gal. You are fortunate to have it available in Florida.
Ski
Absolutely right, the EPA should allow small 2-stroke outboards.
__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
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03-26-2016, 09:55 AM
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#48
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Veteran Member
City: Mt. Pleasant
Vessel Name: Paws Aboard
Vessel Model: 45 Californian
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 42
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I have a brand new (as of Father's Day last year) 20 hp Yamaha 4 stroke. It vibrates so bad it will rattle your teeth. It has less than an hour on it. Yamaha says it is within specifications. We are still discussing how to resolve. OTOH I have my dad's 1967 18 hp Evinrude in storage that was still running great when I put it several years ago. I wouldn't buy a small Yamaha 4 stroke at half of retail. BTW I have owned just about every make of outboard at some time including the old Chryslers.
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03-26-2016, 09:58 AM
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#49
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Guru
City: I need a bigger boat!
Vessel Model: Cheetah 25' Powercat.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM
BandB
For some reason, there is almost no ethanol-free gas available near me, only E10. Many refineries though . . go figure!
I found one speed shop 40 miles away that sells it as 'racing' gas at about $7/gal. You are fortunate to have it available in Florida.
Skii
Absolutely right, the EPA should allow small 2-stroke outboards.
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Avgas is free from ethanol, try your local airfield.
__________________
Peter.
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03-26-2016, 10:04 AM
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#50
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Guru
City: League City, TX
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustybarge
Avgas is free from ethanol, try your local airfield.
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Good call, there is an FBO just a couple of miles away. Thanks!
__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
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03-26-2016, 10:13 AM
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#51
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Sounds like Windows 10 - Wait to purchase till after they get the bugggs worked out! - LOL
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Sounds like most any new product or technology.
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03-26-2016, 10:14 AM
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#52
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM
BandB
For some reason, there is almost no ethanol-free gas available near me, only E10. Many refineries though . . go figure!
I found one speed shop 40 miles away that sells it as 'racing' gas at about $7/gal. You are fortunate to have it available in Florida.
Ski
Absolutely right, the EPA should allow small 2-stroke outboards.
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I know we're lucky around here. Almost all gas on the water is ethanol free.
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03-26-2016, 10:38 AM
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#53
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Guru
City: South FL
Vessel Name: Oliver
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 47 Hull# 12
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB
I know we're lucky around here. Almost all gas on the water is ethanol free.
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Wonder if it's available in bulk? As we buy Rec 90 for our shop. We switched over awhile ago and haven't looked back, the little discrepancy in price worth it, as all our trucks and toys get filled for there.
That really sucks if it's not even available commercially.
__________________
Thanks, Oliver
M/V Oliver
Nordhavn 47 Hull #12
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03-26-2016, 11:17 AM
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#54
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Guru
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM
Good call, there is an FBO just a couple of miles away. Thanks!
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Isn't that bit o' pia - haven to drive to airport and then transport gas??
See my post # 46. I have no problem with ethanol in gas.
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03-26-2016, 12:24 PM
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#55
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Guru
City: League City, TX
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Isn't that bit o' pia - haven to drive to airport and then transport gas??
See my post # 46. I have no problem with ethanol in gas.
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Art,
I've successfully used Sea Foam, B-12 and more recently Mercury Quickstor for years on small engines. I tried them all on that Yamaha, but to no avail.
The RIB is my only water toy that still uses gasoline, and now, with the Evinrude, my ethanol problems are likely over. It still might be a good idea to use ethanol-free gas, and 5 gallons will last me a long time. I fly out of that airport at least twice a week, so in my case, no problem. We'll see
__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
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03-26-2016, 12:34 PM
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#56
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Our gas engines are all recent and are all fine with E 10
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03-28-2016, 08:19 AM
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#57
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Senior Member
City: Gainesville, FL
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 243
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I love old two strokes too. Had a lot of great memories, jon boating as a little kid with my trusty Merc 7.5, waterskiing all summer during high school behind my beloved Glastron with Merc 65, fishing and diving in the 80s off of my Mako 21 with 200 Yammy... Heck, even the Great Harbour charter chase boat was a 15' Mirage with 50hp Yamaha two-stroke. There are a lot of benefits to the light weight, simplicity and ruggedness of a vintage two-stroke. In fact, about a year ago, I GAVE my 1985 Suzuki 8hp to some young friends here at the marina to push their little RIB dink along. I had not started the engine since 1997. It started on the second pull and still runs perfectly.
However. That outboard - and a Mariner 15 on another couple's RIB are the only two-strokes in our liveaboard dinghy fleet. Guess what? Nobody else wants to ride in those boats or even be downwind of them. Your clothes always end up stinking of two-stroke exhaust! I know some of you are going to get all indignant and say, "MY properly tuned two-stroke outboard doesn't stink!" Yeah, well, it's kind of like smoking; if you smoke, you don't notice the smell on your clothes. We tend to forget the way things were having been spared of them for awhile. Have you been behind a beautiful, perfectly tuned vintage car lately? The exhaust smell will choke you.
Look, I'm not a rabid environmentalist, but I believe 4-stroke outboards (or Etec two-strokes) are a better option for the planet than a two-stroke that pumps unburned gas and oil into the exhaust, into the water, into the air, and onto your clothes. The little 4-strokes are getting better and better. Obviously, using ethanol-free gas is a great way to avoid a lot of problems with the carbureted models - but, from what I understand, the fuel injected outboards have been a huge improvement. So, either buy an old stinky two-smoker, or embrace the new technology. That's just my two cents.
ERIC
__________________
"Before you criticize someone, you should first walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes." Stephen Wright.
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03-28-2016, 09:08 AM
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#58
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Guru
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraftee
I love old two strokes too. Had a lot of great memories, jon boating as a little kid with my trusty Merc 7.5, waterskiing all summer during high school behind my beloved Glastron with Merc 65, fishing and diving in the 80s off of my Mako 21 with 200 Yammy... Heck, even the Great Harbour charter chase boat was a 15' Mirage with 50hp Yamaha two-stroke. There are a lot of benefits to the light weight, simplicity and ruggedness of a vintage two-stroke. In fact, about a year ago, I GAVE my 1985 Suzuki 8hp to some young friends here at the marina to push their little RIB dink along. I had not started the engine since 1997. It started on the second pull and still runs perfectly.
However. That outboard - and a Mariner 15 on another couple's RIB are the only two-strokes in our liveaboard dinghy fleet. Guess what? Nobody else wants to ride in those boats or even be downwind of them. Your clothes always end up stinking of two-stroke exhaust! I know some of you are going to get all indignant and say, "MY properly tuned two-stroke outboard doesn't stink!" Yeah, well, it's kind of like smoking; if you smoke, you don't notice the smell on your clothes. We tend to forget the way things were having been spared of them for awhile. Have you been behind a beautiful, perfectly tuned vintage car lately? The exhaust smell will choke you.
Look, I'm not a rabid environmentalist, but I believe 4-stroke outboards (or Etec two-strokes) are a better option for the planet than a two-stroke that pumps unburned gas and oil into the exhaust, into the water, into the air, and onto your clothes. The little 4-strokes are getting better and better. Obviously, using ethanol-free gas is a great way to avoid a lot of problems with the carbureted models - but, from what I understand, the fuel injected outboards have been a huge improvement. So, either buy an old stinky two-smoker, or embrace the new technology. That's just my two cents.
ERIC
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Eric - All you say is absolutely correct!
However... there is just something too romantic about the memory of fumes that came out of them ol' Johnsons o/b's back in the 50's and 60's while we cruised the inside waters of LI's south shore.
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03-28-2016, 09:19 AM
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#59
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Eric - All you say is absolutely correct!
However... there is just something too romantic about the memory of fumes that came out of them ol' Johnsons o/b's back in the 50's and 60's while we cruised the inside waters of LI's south shore.
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Wifey B: Guess your definition of "romantic" is far different than mine. I don't like stinky.
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03-28-2016, 09:51 AM
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#60
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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ERIC,
"two smoker"
I love it.
ERIC
__________________
Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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