New one to me

[brian eiland]

National Liquidators - 2003 Menorquin 160 Motor Cruiser, 52 ft. - National Liquidators --Never seen one of these before, but sure looks interesting. Look at that beam 16'03". Low profile too. From what I can see via the photos, is seems to be well finished, They always have about 30 more photos they can email you.

I might have seen that vessel back at the end of Dec when I was looking at a few other vessels. It was at Piney Narrows on Kent Island, MD if its the same vessel? Was not listed for sale at that time if I recall, if its the same vessel.

 

[RickB]

It's a very flat vee bottom grafted onto traditional topsides....not a happy marriage and far from what I would consider seaworthy. Fine for a calm day and flat water.

How's that? Aside from the funny looking forefoot (which might only look odd because of the camera angle) , the hull below the waterline is like that of tens of thousands of ocean going ships and boats.

The topsides could be made from an old camping trailer and the bottom would still be what it is, a perfectly normal boat hull that is just different than what most residents here are used to looking at.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Well Rick w that huge platform out back for a stern sea to hold the stern down (or even sink the boat) and those small rudders and flat bottom ....

Not sure about the sharp "pinched" forefoot. It could be good or it could hold the bow in place while a stern sea pushed the stern over for a great broach.

 

[RickB]

There are hundreds of seagoing boats with far larger "beach club" size platforms than the one shown and they aren't broaching or sinking with any regularity.

The area and volume of that platform are actually quite small compared to what you can see at nearly any dock in this town.

 

[Art]

Go small and go now.

All this talk about "passage makers" on the forum lately reminds me of a listing story Tucker Fallon shared. He had a guy listing his boat(sub 40' Carver aft cabin I think) and the guy mentioned pair of water makers on board as equipment. He asked where he had been on the boat and he said South America and back.

I kinda gotta agree w/ Craig - i.e. "Go small and go now!"

Couple years ago - Just for S&G - realizing the stout build of our Tolly as well as its accommodating and fully equipped live aboard features and its great sea keeping abilities... I threw together what she could do if outfitted correctly regarding long range coastal cruising – for two [ ; - )

1. Drop approx 1.75K lbs off gross loaded weight by removing current equip not needed – i.e. Front V-Berth, head, lockers/closet and bridge seats as well as considerable item removal in master state room
2. Then, add approx 3K lbs to gross loaded weight via new, filled fuel tanks (300 extra gallons – in addition to the current 200 gals) and a water maker as well as emergency survival raft and some provisions, also fishing equipment. The newly added 1.2K lbs extra weight (above original gross weight) would soon drop away due to fuel use. And, not always would full fuel tanks be needed... therefore under most conditions, in most locations, boat weight would remain below its originally designed gross weight.

End result (with an averaged same or less gross loaded weight as before):

Using one engine at a time cruising at 5.5 to 6 knots and therefore accomplishing approx 2.5 nmpg (I’ve recorded up to 2.75 nmpg) with 500 gallons gasoline – for cost of a couple add-on fuel tanks and a water maker we’d have a full range of 1,250 miles with a safety range of 1,125 miles (10% fuel reserve)

That does not make our exceedingly comfortable 34’ Tolly a grand “Passage Maker”... but, when talking LRC Coastal Jaunts – she’s surely a doer! And, if more range than a 10% fuel reserve safe 1,125 miles was needed; fuel bladders could increase distance considerably. 200 extra gals (1,500 diminishing extra lbs) would place Tolly into the 1,750 mile total range with a 1,575 10% reserve fuel safe range.

Jus sayen! Happy Boaten Daze!

 

[Tad Roberts]

How's that? Aside from the funny looking forefoot (which might only look odd because of the camera angle) , the hull below the waterline is like that of tens of thousands of ocean going ships and boats.

The topsides could be made from an old camping trailer and the bottom would still be what it is, a perfectly normal boat hull that is just different than what most residents here are used to looking at.

The forefoot definitely is odd....and saying it's perfectly normal does not change the lack of seaworthly features.....

Read this for my thoughts on the subject,

The Typical Powerboat is Not Seaworthy

 

[Art]

Originally Posted by Scary
How many boat adds include the owner had just spent some ridicules amount of money on a refit, and for a fraction of the cost the whole boat can be yours.

That describes our boat perfectly. The PO (whom I'm now good friends with) sold us the boat for less than 20 cents on the dollar not counting any of his time. Fresh from total refit.

If I can duplicate that, we will upgrade, Until that time we'll continue to enjoy what we have.

Bingo - Ditto - Exacto - Samo - Yeso - I agreeo - Happened to us to o!

Ain't live grand! Happy Boating Daze!

 

[ranger58sb]

Hi Chris, thanks for reaching out! Yes, we were at Herrington Harbor earlier this year, our first stop on a little 10 day trip down the bay. We also went to Tangier Island, Smith Island, and Solomons. Hope all is well with you too!

I was thinking it was a service stop at Anchor YB on the South River?

Anyway, not to worry, sounds like a nice trip! Enjoy!

-Chris

 

[RickB]

The forefoot definitely is odd....and saying it's perfectly normal does not change the lack of seaworthly features.....

Ah c'mon Tad, that is right up there with those who post here claiming to be able to compose a stability book and determine propulsion efficiency (and fuel efficiency) based on a couple of blurry photos.

And the forefoot, based on some other photos I found, appears to be simple bluff bow ala the olden days of riveted iron or composite construction. A bit archaic but it does provide more volume forward than a deep V entry with exaggerated flair that is popular today.

And again, the swim platform or whatever you want to call it, is very small compared to what is found on hundreds of real ocean going yachts that can be seen by the dozen in Fort Lauderdale.

As a matter of opinion, I think the offending appendage is probably safer than those seen on nearly every boat in the avatars on this site. It is part of the structure rather than being held on by a handful of 1/4 inch bolts through the transom above and below the waterline yet have the same or greater area exposed to the loads that worry Eric.

This is close to another angels dancing thing for me but maybe one of the readers who is shocked and dismayed will contact the builder or one of the many owners and obtain some real life comments on the boat. The Med can get really really nasty in a hurry but I have not been able to find any stories about those boats foundering.

 

[RickB]

Oops, did I really write "bluff" when I meant to write plumb? Seems I did, sorry.

 

[Art]

Oops, did I really write "bluff" when I meant to write plumb? Seems I did, sorry.

That's funny Rick! I was wondering wtf a bluff bow was?? Thought maybe you felt plumb bow bluffed its way through the waves... by scaring them down with an intimidating full-cut vertical edge.

 

[RickB]

A bluff bow is one like you see on really old sailing ships. The beam is practically full developed within a very short distance of the stem.

The Menorquin might be close to that but the stem is plumb, meaning that it is a vertical line from the bullnose to the water line.

And ... when analyzed by the viewfinder of my handy stability/performance/propulsion efficiency/seaworthiness calculator, this thing shouldn't be permitted to see daylight so we now know how much that soothsaying machine is worth, don't we?

 

[Art]

Rick, now that you re awaken me slumbering brain cells... Yup, as memory serves me from some 50 year ago travels... I had learned that term as you describe it for old ships; during my Mystic Connecticut visits.

 

[Conrad]

I've never seen a Menorquin in real life; none have made it to BC waters that I'm aware of. However, their lines have always had a fascination. The bow from certain angles has to be about the most sensuous I've ever seen, and the sweep of the sheerline is also very attractive to my eye.

But once the boat is out of the water all attractiveness ends. The odd flat bottom is just, well, odd. Not having Tad's credentials I shouldn't comment on seakeeping but it sure doesn't look right.

But of course it all depends on the intended use.

 

[Wxx3]

A bluff bow is one like you see on really old sailing ships. The beam is practically full developed within a very short distance of the stem.

The Menorquin might be close to that but the stem is plumb, meaning that it is a vertical line from the bullnose to the water line.

And ... when analyzed by the viewfinder of my handy stability/performance/propulsion efficiency/seaworthiness calculator, this thing shouldn't be permitted to see daylight so we now know how much that soothsaying machine is worth, don't we?

Rick,

You lost me at the end. So, is it a good or bad design?

 

[Wxx3]

That "trend" is called time, and depreciation. The longer you wait to buy, the cheaper machines will be as time is ticking on, and used machines (unless classic cars) don't go up in price. What cost $800k new in 2000 sold for $450k by 02, and $190k by 2013. Old Hatteras's and Rolls Royces, which cost a fortune new- are begging on the market now. I just sent my mother comps for recent sold Rolls Royces because she thinks her furniture she bought new in the 60s is valuable. NOT. Along with Silver being at $20.00 an ounce and gold at $1255., as a reminder her Silver isn't worth much either.
The gamble is: Will you even get the time to buy, as nobody knows when their time is up. Saddest thing I see (and I've seen it hundreds of times over the past 30 years I've owned my Brokerage) is guys waiting to buy when: "Kids graduate from college, Kids get a job, daughter get's married and moves away, win the lotto, AND waiting to retire". Then I later see the widow (only twice ever the widower)who tells me "it was so sad, Bob died last year". Poor bastards worked their whole lives, waiting to live the dream (gonna buy a motorcycle, gonna buy a motorhome, gonna buy a boat) and didn't do anything but leave their wives rich. How do I meet the widows? They show up with new younger boyfriend and buy a boat with 'Bob's' insurance. Thanks Bob! lol
As I heard a Jewish Broker YELL at a Pilot he was showing a boat to right after 9/11.. "You know what those pilots on those planes would had told you? BUY THE BOAT-I WISH WE COULD! (yeah that was ballsy, but he made a good point)
As a disclaimer.. I got lucky- one day in my mid 20's I was coming back from sailing on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and stopped at a little country store to get some (more) beer on the way home, an old timer in overalls saw my Top Sider shoes, and said "a young man like you shouldn't waste your life up here going in circles on a lake, go down to the Ocean, where you can go some place". I went home told the wife "Bobby Jo, a angel just instructed me to move back to New Orleans!" and the rest is history. Thanks old man!! (he looked just like the geezer in the bank during the robbery scene in the movie Raising Arizona) Better young and playing (research) than working! It worked out fine.

What a touching and poignant piece of writing. Thank you.

 

[RickB]

Practically every ship in the world has a flat bottom, why shouldn't a yacht be entitled to have one if it wants?

Those wide flared bow coastal fishing boats used in Japan have flat bottoms and work in weather that not many here would venture out.

 

[RickB]

Rick,

You lost me at the end. So, is it a good or bad design?

Damifino ... I'm no soothsayer. But if I were to speculate, the design has been around for a long time, they are popular boats and don't have a reputation for sinking after being pooped so I guess if history is the measure, it must be a good design.

If the only boat the gurus here had ever seen or sailed on were Menorquins or Japanese fishing boats, the stuff we call trawlers would probably be ridiculed as dangerous and unseaworthy.

Considering that probably only a very few members have ever been out of sight of land, I am not surprised that so many of the toy boats analyzed by the resident soothsayers are considered "seaworthy."

 

[Nomad Willy]

Rick does the fact that flat bottomed boats go to sea make that feature of the boat a seaworthy feature?

I think not, at least generally speaking and your'e debating in a playful way but your playfulness is also attempting to make fools out of other people. If you can't understand why a flat bottom isn't a feature that adds seaworthyness to a boat or ship then perhaps you should listen to our NA. The ships you so often mention out of context have mostly vertical sides too and that also isn't a feature that adds seaworthyness but are there for other reasons. But these features clearly aren't a feature of seaworthyness and generally speaking don't add seaworthyness to most designs.

Perhaps w some like perhaps a dory. But Dory's have small bottoms and the fact that a flat bottom isn't a seaworthy feature probably accounts for the fact that their bottoms are rather small.

One of the main reasons flat bottoms aren't a very seaworthy feature is that they are weak. Designers avoid FBs as they require extra structure to make them strong enough. FBs require extra large keels to keep a boat under control and staying under control is top priority when seas get big. FBs do have a feature that does promote seaworthyness and that is stability but the stability that they provide is more primary than secondary. So a vessels FB may be a feature that promotes capsizing so if a FB adds to stability and the seaworthyness it provides that addition may be very small.

Rick if being out of the sight of land gives one a sense of seaworthyness think of all the experts that disembark from cruise ships.

 

[RickB]

Bunch of really weird stuff clipped for clarity ...

So a vessels FB may be a feature that promotes capsizing so if a FB adds to stability and the seaworthyness it provides that addition may be very small.

Yeah, OK ...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Rick .. got tired of writing flat bottom and seawothiness.

The sentence dosn't read very well does it? I use a pencil w a yellow tube cap on the end. I'd never be able to compete w Marin but I'm probably not known to be a man of few words either.

But in the sentence you quoted quantity got ahead of quality.

 

[RickB]

Well Rick w that huge platform out back for a stern sea to hold the stern down (or even sink the boat) and those small rudders and flat bottom ....

Not sure about the sharp "pinched" forefoot. It could be good or it could hold the bow in place while a stern sea pushed the stern over for a great broach.

Using that line of reasoning, boats like this one should be immune to both problems since the swim step is more likely to breakaway. Rather than broaching or flooding the aft deck, it would just leave holes in the transom below the waterline and probably a big one just above it.

 

[Nomad Willy]

My words of support for swim steps are far and few too and you'll not find one on my own boat. A proper boat should be designed to take seas from either end as it will come to pass in time. But pleasure boats are for pleasure and when pleasure and convenience become a higher priority than seaworthyness swim steps seem to appear. In defense of same I can't recall ever hearing of a pleasure boat going down because of her swim step.

Swim steps and flat bottoms go to sea and come back. But not because of those features.

 

[Underway]

Stern on a 40' planing Calafurnia (Italian) looks similar...

 

[markpierce]

Rick if being out of the sight of land gives one a sense of seaworthyness think of all the experts that disembark from cruise ships.

I resemble that remark and have been through two hurricanes on them. Yet I don't consider myself an expert.

 

[Blue Moon]

Not For Everyone

I've logged a little under 500 hours on my Menorquin 160 since purchase 12 months ago. This boat is not for everyone but meets our needs and expectations well. Extreamly sea worthy, great all around access for docking, compact profile with low wind impact at anchor or docking, just enough interior space for comfortable living aboard, fits in at anchorages well with both power and sail boats, great swim platform (no, it doesn't present a problem in a following sea), and important to me has a real salty look that isn't the same old same old. A real sail boaty interior space with excellent joinery and woodwork. Extensive mahogany above deck requires time to maintain, but like a fancy wife, that's the price for having a head turner on your arm.

 

[Art]

I've logged a little under 500 hours on my Menorquin 160 since purchase 12 months ago. This boat is not for everyone but meets our needs and expectations well. Extreamly sea worthy, great all around access for docking, compact profile with low wind impact at anchor or docking, just enough interior space for comfortable living aboard, fits in at anchorages well with both power and sail boats, great swim platform (no, it doesn't present a problem in a following sea), and important to me has a real salty look that isn't the same old same old. A real sail boaty interior space with excellent joinery and woodwork. Extensive mahogany above deck requires time to maintain, but like a fancy wife, that's the price for having a head turner on your arm.

Welcome Blue Moon!

That's a sharp looking boat you have. This pict I got off the net. Can you post photo of yours?

Cheers! - Art

 

[RickB]

I resemble that remark and have been through two hurricanes on them. Yet I don't consider myself an expert.

Too bad Bounty sank, they needed people with real seafaring experience and photos to prove how unforgiving the sea can be!

 

[RickB]

A proper boat should be designed to take seas from either end as it will come to pass in time. /QUOTE]
Ever seen a car carrier? An aircraft carrier? A frigate, a destroyer? The percentage of canoe stern vessels is so small as to be statistically irrelevant.

Swim steps and flat bottoms go to sea and come back. But not because of those features.

That is someplace beyond just fractured syntax.

 

[RickB]

Since Mark has dropped in with his hurricane at sea story (and pics to prove the severity of the event) would you concur that cruise ships are seaworthy? If so, perhaps a glance at the stern of Veendam, Oriana, Disney Magic, Splendour of the Seas, and a growing number of vessels of all sorts are fitted with a stern appendage that would probably never meet your design approval.

Many of those "ducktails" were added in order to comply with the latest Safety Of Life At Sea (SOLAS) stability standards. In plain English ... those things contribute to stability and seaworthiness, not as you mistakenly believe, detract from it.

Please keep in mind, Eric, that there is a difference between reality and what we sometimes think is reality based on what little we know in reality about topics on which we hold strong opinions.

Here are a few cruise ship sterns for you to ponder, and a flat stern that at least a few folks think is seaworthy.