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Old 01-16-2014, 02:19 PM   #41
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Oops, did I really write "bluff" when I meant to write plumb? Seems I did, sorry.
That's funny Rick! I was wondering wtf a bluff bow was?? Thought maybe you felt plumb bow bluffed its way through the waves... by scaring them down with an intimidating full-cut vertical edge.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:42 PM   #42
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A bluff bow is one like you see on really old sailing ships. The beam is practically full developed within a very short distance of the stem.

The Menorquin might be close to that but the stem is plumb, meaning that it is a vertical line from the bullnose to the water line.

And ... when analyzed by the viewfinder of my handy stability/performance/propulsion efficiency/seaworthiness calculator, this thing shouldn't be permitted to see daylight so we now know how much that soothsaying machine is worth, don't we?
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:34 PM   #43
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Rick, now that you re awaken me slumbering brain cells... Yup, as memory serves me from some 50 year ago travels... I had learned that term as you describe it for old ships; during my Mystic Connecticut visits.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:01 PM   #44
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I've never seen a Menorquin in real life; none have made it to BC waters that I'm aware of. However, their lines have always had a fascination. The bow from certain angles has to be about the most sensuous I've ever seen, and the sweep of the sheerline is also very attractive to my eye.

But once the boat is out of the water all attractiveness ends. The odd flat bottom is just, well, odd. Not having Tad's credentials I shouldn't comment on seakeeping but it sure doesn't look right.

But of course it all depends on the intended use.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:15 PM   #45
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A bluff bow is one like you see on really old sailing ships. The beam is practically full developed within a very short distance of the stem.

The Menorquin might be close to that but the stem is plumb, meaning that it is a vertical line from the bullnose to the water line.

And ... when analyzed by the viewfinder of my handy stability/performance/propulsion efficiency/seaworthiness calculator, this thing shouldn't be permitted to see daylight so we now know how much that soothsaying machine is worth, don't we?
Rick,

You lost me at the end. So, is it a good or bad design?
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:18 PM   #46
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That "trend" is called time, and depreciation. The longer you wait to buy, the cheaper machines will be as time is ticking on, and used machines (unless classic cars) don't go up in price. What cost $800k new in 2000 sold for $450k by 02, and $190k by 2013. Old Hatteras's and Rolls Royces, which cost a fortune new- are begging on the market now. I just sent my mother comps for recent sold Rolls Royces because she thinks her furniture she bought new in the 60s is valuable. NOT. Along with Silver being at $20.00 an ounce and gold at $1255., as a reminder her Silver isn't worth much either.
The gamble is: Will you even get the time to buy, as nobody knows when their time is up. Saddest thing I see (and I've seen it hundreds of times over the past 30 years I've owned my Brokerage) is guys waiting to buy when: "Kids graduate from college, Kids get a job, daughter get's married and moves away, win the lotto, AND waiting to retire". Then I later see the widow (only twice ever the widower)who tells me "it was so sad, Bob died last year". Poor bastards worked their whole lives, waiting to live the dream (gonna buy a motorcycle, gonna buy a motorhome, gonna buy a boat) and didn't do anything but leave their wives rich. How do I meet the widows? They show up with new younger boyfriend and buy a boat with 'Bob's' insurance. Thanks Bob! lol
As I heard a Jewish Broker YELL at a Pilot he was showing a boat to right after 9/11.. "You know what those pilots on those planes would had told you? BUY THE BOAT-I WISH WE COULD! (yeah that was ballsy, but he made a good point)
As a disclaimer.. I got lucky- one day in my mid 20's I was coming back from sailing on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and stopped at a little country store to get some (more) beer on the way home, an old timer in overalls saw my Top Sider shoes, and said "a young man like you shouldn't waste your life up here going in circles on a lake, go down to the Ocean, where you can go some place". I went home told the wife "Bobby Jo, a angel just instructed me to move back to New Orleans!" and the rest is history. Thanks old man!! (he looked just like the geezer in the bank during the robbery scene in the movie Raising Arizona) Better young and playing (research) than working! It worked out fine.
What a touching and poignant piece of writing. Thank you.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:31 PM   #47
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Practically every ship in the world has a flat bottom, why shouldn't a yacht be entitled to have one if it wants?

Those wide flared bow coastal fishing boats used in Japan have flat bottoms and work in weather that not many here would venture out.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:44 PM   #48
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Rick,

You lost me at the end. So, is it a good or bad design?
Damifino ... I'm no soothsayer. But if I were to speculate, the design has been around for a long time, they are popular boats and don't have a reputation for sinking after being pooped so I guess if history is the measure, it must be a good design.

If the only boat the gurus here had ever seen or sailed on were Menorquins or Japanese fishing boats, the stuff we call trawlers would probably be ridiculed as dangerous and unseaworthy.

Considering that probably only a very few members have ever been out of sight of land, I am not surprised that so many of the toy boats analyzed by the resident soothsayers are considered "seaworthy."
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:00 PM   #49
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Rick does the fact that flat bottomed boats go to sea make that feature of the boat a seaworthy feature?

I think not, at least generally speaking and your'e debating in a playful way but your playfulness is also attempting to make fools out of other people. If you can't understand why a flat bottom isn't a feature that adds seaworthyness to a boat or ship then perhaps you should listen to our NA. The ships you so often mention out of context have mostly vertical sides too and that also isn't a feature that adds seaworthyness but are there for other reasons. But these features clearly aren't a feature of seaworthyness and generally speaking don't add seaworthyness to most designs.

Perhaps w some like perhaps a dory. But Dory's have small bottoms and the fact that a flat bottom isn't a seaworthy feature probably accounts for the fact that their bottoms are rather small.

One of the main reasons flat bottoms aren't a very seaworthy feature is that they are weak. Designers avoid FBs as they require extra structure to make them strong enough. FBs require extra large keels to keep a boat under control and staying under control is top priority when seas get big. FBs do have a feature that does promote seaworthyness and that is stability but the stability that they provide is more primary than secondary. So a vessels FB may be a feature that promotes capsizing so if a FB adds to stability and the seaworthyness it provides that addition may be very small.

Rick if being out of the sight of land gives one a sense of seaworthyness think of all the experts that disembark from cruise ships.
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:06 PM   #50
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Bunch of really weird stuff clipped for clarity ...

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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
So a vessels FB may be a feature that promotes capsizing so if a FB adds to stability and the seaworthyness it provides that addition may be very small.
Yeah, OK ...
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:16 PM   #51
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Rick .. got tired of writing flat bottom and seawothiness.

The sentence dosn't read very well does it? I use a pencil w a yellow tube cap on the end. I'd never be able to compete w Marin but I'm probably not known to be a man of few words either.

But in the sentence you quoted quantity got ahead of quality.
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:22 AM   #52
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Well Rick w that huge platform out back for a stern sea to hold the stern down (or even sink the boat) and those small rudders and flat bottom ....

Not sure about the sharp "pinched" forefoot. It could be good or it could hold the bow in place while a stern sea pushed the stern over for a great broach.
Using that line of reasoning, boats like this one should be immune to both problems since the swim step is more likely to breakaway. Rather than broaching or flooding the aft deck, it would just leave holes in the transom below the waterline and probably a big one just above it.
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:36 AM   #53
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My words of support for swim steps are far and few too and you'll not find one on my own boat. A proper boat should be designed to take seas from either end as it will come to pass in time. But pleasure boats are for pleasure and when pleasure and convenience become a higher priority than seaworthyness swim steps seem to appear. In defense of same I can't recall ever hearing of a pleasure boat going down because of her swim step.

Swim steps and flat bottoms go to sea and come back. But not because of those features.
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:20 PM   #54
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Stern on a 40' planing Calafurnia (Italian) looks similar...

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Old 01-19-2014, 12:31 PM   #55
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Rick if being out of the sight of land gives one a sense of seaworthyness think of all the experts that disembark from cruise ships.
I resemble that remark and have been through two hurricanes on them. Yet I don't consider myself an expert.

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Old 01-21-2014, 05:48 PM   #56
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Not For Everyone

I've logged a little under 500 hours on my Menorquin 160 since purchase 12 months ago. This boat is not for everyone but meets our needs and expectations well. Extreamly sea worthy, great all around access for docking, compact profile with low wind impact at anchor or docking, just enough interior space for comfortable living aboard, fits in at anchorages well with both power and sail boats, great swim platform (no, it doesn't present a problem in a following sea), and important to me has a real salty look that isn't the same old same old. A real sail boaty interior space with excellent joinery and woodwork. Extensive mahogany above deck requires time to maintain, but like a fancy wife, that's the price for having a head turner on your arm.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:56 PM   #57
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I've logged a little under 500 hours on my Menorquin 160 since purchase 12 months ago. This boat is not for everyone but meets our needs and expectations well. Extreamly sea worthy, great all around access for docking, compact profile with low wind impact at anchor or docking, just enough interior space for comfortable living aboard, fits in at anchorages well with both power and sail boats, great swim platform (no, it doesn't present a problem in a following sea), and important to me has a real salty look that isn't the same old same old. A real sail boaty interior space with excellent joinery and woodwork. Extensive mahogany above deck requires time to maintain, but like a fancy wife, that's the price for having a head turner on your arm.
Welcome Blue Moon!

That's a sharp looking boat you have. This pict I got off the net. Can you post photo of yours?

Cheers! - Art

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Old 01-21-2014, 06:40 PM   #58
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I resemble that remark and have been through two hurricanes on them. Yet I don't consider myself an expert.
Too bad Bounty sank, they needed people with real seafaring experience and photos to prove how unforgiving the sea can be!
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:46 PM   #59
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[QUOTE=manyboats;206816] A proper boat should be designed to take seas from either end as it will come to pass in time. /QUOTE]
Ever seen a car carrier? An aircraft carrier? A frigate, a destroyer? The percentage of canoe stern vessels is so small as to be statistically irrelevant.


Quote:
Swim steps and flat bottoms go to sea and come back. But not because of those features.
That is someplace beyond just fractured syntax.
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:46 AM   #60
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Since Mark has dropped in with his hurricane at sea story (and pics to prove the severity of the event) would you concur that cruise ships are seaworthy? If so, perhaps a glance at the stern of Veendam, Oriana, Disney Magic, Splendour of the Seas, and a growing number of vessels of all sorts are fitted with a stern appendage that would probably never meet your design approval.

Many of those "ducktails" were added in order to comply with the latest Safety Of Life At Sea (SOLAS) stability standards. In plain English ... those things contribute to stability and seaworthiness, not as you mistakenly believe, detract from it.

Please keep in mind, Eric, that there is a difference between reality and what we sometimes think is reality based on what little we know in reality about topics on which we hold strong opinions.

Here are a few cruise ship sterns for you to ponder, and a flat stern that at least a few folks think is seaworthy.
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