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Old 04-14-2016, 01:14 PM   #81
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Have you seen the boat in person and spent the better part of a day looking it over with a trusted boat smart friend? What is your previous boating experience? I compliment you on wanting a boat this size.

You've had a few hints here on what to look for, I add to it - dedicate yourself and your wife by spending many months walking the docks and looking at real live vessels. Go to a big boat show or two, look at some real boats and you'll be smarter for it.

A nearly 40 year old boat is a difficult starting point. Especially when Internet shopping. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Old 04-15-2016, 08:21 AM   #82
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The mechanical survey is a bad as the initial survey and the engines have multiple fuel and oil leaks and are garbage

NO - I AM NOT MOVING FORWARD ON THIS PURCHASE

Thanks for everyone's input and advice and I am looking for another boat. I will be following up on some of the advice and posts .
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Old 04-15-2016, 10:34 AM   #83
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It's too bad there isn't a listing of all surveys where unethical brokers/boat owners can be exposed. Shaunc just had to spend thousands of dollars because a broker/seller misled him (and many others no doubt) about the true condition of their listings.

They should be publicly called out when they do things like this.
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:16 AM   #84
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While it will take a full day to survey a boat such as Shaunc is interested in, an experienced surveyor can find the major issues is 1/2hr. Choose your surveyor with care and pay him ($100 ?) to do a walk-thru and take a few photos of the stuff the brokers won't photograph before spending money on travel to see something that you'll walk from the minute you see it. This something I do several times a year for out of town buyers
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:18 AM   #85
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I had a long talk to the broker yesterday about this and he is upset about this as I am.So I am going to give him some what of a pass.

He said we were the 1st full survey done on the boat and prior to that all he had was the sellers word. He felt there were some issues, but figured they would show up in a survey. Boy was he right, he just did not know to what extent.

The boat showed great and he priced it a what the seller was wanting. ( I do believe he should have had more influence on the pricing)

The broker has has had about 5-6 trips with airfares and hotel to the boat. The seller had the boat looking like crap at a sea trial that never happened, due the the mechanical surveyor not wanting to leave the dock due to the condition of the engines. You would think that he would have at least use soap and water to show it off its its best condition.

I could list for hours all the half ass repairs he did to "try" comply with the surveyors and insurance companies requirements and it has now come back to bite him. He has a great looking dock ornament.
The boat is a project boat. The engines need to come out for over hauling or be replaced and the all wiring needs to be replaced. There is about 60k in expense right there.
As mentioned earlier there are comparable boats in size, age and style for around 65-75k. So its worth 10k -15k if you don't take the hassle and unforeseen issues into account.
BTW, we also found 3 active hull leaks, you must see what crap his bilge is pumping overboard with all the water, oil and diesel in the bilge.

Peter showed me the original purchase listing and in 6 yrs the seller has done almost nothing but half ass repairs, zero preventative maintenance. Very little upgrades, he put in vinyla windows and covered the cushions. Wow!! what an investment, it must make the boat worth 60k more than it was bought for, despite having done 7000 miles on the loop.
He listed it for double what he paid for it.

The owner is still in denial. He told James Khudoo, the mechanical surveyor ,that how can there be issues, he just completed the loop.

James said all he had to do was pay attention to the signs of fuel and oil leaks everywhere and just because he was lucky enough to make it home doesn't mean the engines are not done for.

I have never had a boat that I have owned for that long that can be considered a appreciating asset.
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:33 AM   #86
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I had a long talk to the broker yesterday about this and he is upset about this as I am.So I am going to give him some what of a pass.

He said we were the 1st full survey done on the boat and prior to that all he had was the sellers word. He felt there were some issues, but figured they would show up in a survey. Boy was he right, he just did not know to what extent.

The boat showed great and he priced it a what the seller was wanting. ( I do believe he should have had more influence on the pricing)

The broker has has had about 5-6 trips with airfares and hotel to the boat. The seller had the boat looking like crap at a sea trial that never happened, due the the mechanical surveyor not wanting to leave the dock due to the condition of the engines. You would think that he would have at least use soap and water to show it off its its best condition.

I could list for hours all the half ass repairs he did to "try" comply with the surveyors and insurance companies requirements and it has now come back to bite him. He has a great looking dock ornament.
The boat is a project boat. The engines need to come out for over hauling or be replaced and the all wiring needs to be replaced. There is about 60k in expense right there.
As mentioned earlier there are comparable boats in size, age and style for around 65-75k. So its worth 10k -15k if you don't take the hassle and unforeseen issues into account.
BTW, we also found 3 active hull leaks, you must see what crap his bilge is pumping overboard with all the water, oil and diesel in the bilge.

Peter showed me the original purchase listing and in 6 yrs the seller has done almost nothing but half ass repairs, zero preventative maintenance. Very little upgrades, he put in vinyla windows and covered the cushions. Wow!! what an investment, it must make the boat worth 60k more than it was bought for, despite having done 7000 miles on the loop.
He listed it for double what he paid for it.

The owner is still in denial. He told James Khudoo, the mechanical surveyor ,that how can there be issues, he just completed the loop.

James said all he had to do was pay attention to the signs of fuel and oil leaks everywhere and just because he was lucky enough to make it home doesn't mean the engines are not done for.

I have never had a boat that I have owned for that long that can be considered a appreciating asset.
You either did your homework or got very lucky. James and Peter, two of the very best.
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:47 AM   #87
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I am glad to say I did my homework, You dont get that lucky. If I did I would have won the powerball. lol
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:01 PM   #88
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How is your broker qualified to sell vessels if he can't do a walk thru himself and spot t trend in the upkeep and condition of the vessel? He most likely sells boats on week ends and aluminum siding on week days. Don't give him a pass. Just say good by, period, otherwise your the fool. Don't let him sucker you twice. And do not be in a hurry. I have told customers that I would take my motherinlaw out in a vessel I had surveyed and they still purchased it and then a year later are trying to sell at half the price.
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:06 PM   #89
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"Peter showed me the original purchase listing and in 6 yrs the seller has done almost nothing but half ass repairs, zero preventative maintenance. Very little upgrades, he put in vinyla windows and covered the cushions. Wow!! what an investment, it must make the boat worth 60k more than it was bought for, despite having done 7000 miles on the loop.
He listed it for double what he paid for it."


Then I can guess that the broker on the boat knew this before and during the time you were working to get information on this boat.
This is a quote from this boats brokers listing page.....


"Michael Martin is a licensed and bonded yacht broker with Curtis Stokes & Associates, Inc. based in Cleveland, OH and specializing in worldwide yacht sales. Michael offers professional, honest, discreet and personal assistance to a select group of clients and customers worldwide."
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:18 PM   #90
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Boatpoker
I am glad to say I did my homework, You dont get that lucky. If I did I would have won the powerball. lol
Hey, I feel for you. Going through this process for the first time is a learning experience. Hopefully you are more educated about the process now and the money you spent on this endeavor has left you smarter and more capable of avoiding a situation like this in the future.

I was looking at a boat about 400 miles away. The broker told me it was ready to cruise. I flew down there and found a boat in miserable shape and partially dis-assembled. It was also infested with termites! I was dumbfounded that he broker misled me like that.
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:34 PM   #91
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While it will take a full day to survey a boat such as Shaunc is interested in, an experienced surveyor can find the major issues is 1/2hr. Choose your surveyor with care and pay him ($100 ?) to do a walk-thru and take a few photos of the stuff the brokers won't photograph before spending money on travel to see something that you'll walk from the minute you see it. This something I do several times a year for out of town buyers
Good advice. When I hired a surveyor he discussed this up front, something along the lines of "I will provide an exit opportunity after an hour at xx cost if I'm confident that major issues exist."
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Old 04-15-2016, 03:34 PM   #92
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There are many boats in good condition why mess with an expensive fixer. Sellers can not be relied onto do proper repairs
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Old 04-15-2016, 04:34 PM   #93
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How is your broker qualified to sell vessels if he can't do a walk thru himself and spot t trend in the upkeep and condition of the vessel? He most likely sells boats on week ends and aluminum siding on week days. Don't give him a pass. Just say good by, period, otherwise your the fool. Don't let him sucker you twice. And do not be in a hurry. I have told customers that I would take my motherinlaw out in a vessel I had surveyed and they still purchased it and then a year later are trying to sell at half the price.
I agree. Look at the listing:

"Well-maintained, beautiful trawler"

"Ready to cruise immediately"

BS!

If the broker didn't know about how far from the truth this listing is, he shouldn't be selling boats.
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Old 04-15-2016, 05:00 PM   #94
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I agree. Look at the listing:

"Well-maintained, beautiful trawler"

"Ready to cruise immediately"

BS!

If the broker didn't know about how far from the truth this listing is, he shouldn't be selling boats.
Agreed - Best part is that he definitely knows the truth about the boat now but the listing stays the same. And although thanks to Shaun we all know about this boat the 'next guy' that calls on that boat will not see this coming.
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Old 04-15-2016, 05:44 PM   #95
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Agreed - Best part is that he definitely knows the truth about the boat now but the listing stays the same. And although thanks to Shaun we all know about this boat the 'next guy' that calls on that boat will not see this coming.
A couple of other things mentioned and some not perhaps mentioned as ways to avoid this type outcome.

1. Beaten to death, but still worth mentioning, buyer's broker.
2. Surveyor with agreement to stop the moment he determines it has serious issues.
3. Require current photos to be taken, giving specifically what you want. Require some close up shots.
4. If it's distant, engage someone there to go check it out. If it's someone you know, that's great, but, if not, someone from a local boatyard or marina. Pay them $100 or $150 to go take a few photos with their phone and look at it and give you their first impression.
5. Ask some piercing questions of the broker. How long has it been on the market? Have you personally seen it and, if so, when? How many others have looked at it? How many made offers subject to surveys and then walked? What problems were pointed out on any surveys? There are certain things brokers may not have to disclose, but when asked, they definitely must. Why hasn't the boat sold? What have people said to you? What offers, if any, has the owner turned down? If a boat is listed for $100k but you'd never pay more than $80k for it and the owner has recently said no to $95k, then no need to continue. One thing a buyer's broker does is asks the right questions of the other broker on a distant boat. I know one broker who will not even move on a boat with her customer, until she is furnished with current photos she requests from the selling broker.
6. This one is even more radical. A disclosure sheet for the seller. It's become the norm and state law in many states on real estate. It's a detailed list of all parts of the house, all appliances, all rooms, plumbing, HVAC, and the seller must answer either they're in good condition or poor or they don't know.
7. Communicate in writing in addition to orally. If the broker tells you some things, send him an email back to confirm and for him to verify you understood him correctly. Build a paper trail. It also helps make sure you don't misinterpret.
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Old 04-15-2016, 05:51 PM   #96
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A couple of other things mentioned and some not perhaps mentioned as ways to avoid this type outcome.

1. Beaten to death, but still worth mentioning, buyer's broker.
2. Surveyor with agreement to stop the moment he determines it has serious issues.
3. Require current photos to be taken, giving specifically what you want. Require some close up shots.
4. If it's distant, engage someone there to go check it out. If it's someone you know, that's great, but, if not, someone from a local boatyard or marina. Pay them $100 or $150 to go take a few photos with their phone and look at it and give you their first impression.
5. Ask some piercing questions of the broker. How long has it been on the market? Have you personally seen it and, if so, when? How many others have looked at it? How many made offers subject to surveys and then walked? What problems were pointed out on any surveys? There are certain things brokers may not have to disclose, but when asked, they definitely must. Why hasn't the boat sold? What have people said to you? What offers, if any, has the owner turned down? If a boat is listed for $100k but you'd never pay more than $80k for it and the owner has recently said no to $95k, then no need to continue. One thing a buyer's broker does is asks the right questions of the other broker on a distant boat. I know one broker who will not even move on a boat with her customer, until she is furnished with current photos she requests from the selling broker.
6. This one is even more radical. A disclosure sheet for the seller. It's become the norm and state law in many states on real estate. It's a detailed list of all parts of the house, all appliances, all rooms, plumbing, HVAC, and the seller must answer either they're in good condition or poor or they don't know.
7. Communicate in writing in addition to orally. If the broker tells you some things, send him an email back to confirm and for him to verify you understood him correctly. Build a paper trail. It also helps make sure you don't misinterpret.
This entire industry seems to be run by used car dealers from the 60's
Put as much effort into your choice of broker and surveyor as you do the boat.
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Old 04-15-2016, 06:09 PM   #97
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This entire industry seems to be run by used car dealers from the 60's
Put as much effort into your choice of broker and surveyor as you do the boat.
As I wasn't alive for the 60's, I can't comment there. However, I do definitely agree with your second sentence. Interview brokers and surveyors with hard questions. A broker might be good but not for the type boat you're looking for.

There is no uniqueness about brokers, surveyors, used car dealers, or most other professionals. There are good and bad, honest and dishonest. My wife and I bought cars when we moved to Florida. We walked away from two local dealers where we didn't trust or like the salesman, and we drove to Tampa to buy our cars. We need to use discretion so as not to reward the bad ones. When I was in the corporate world, I once made a very large supplier give us a different sales person or lose all our business. I also sent out memos to every one of our locations prohibiting anyone from dealing with a couple of vendors some had used.

There are choices of brokers and surveyors. Fortunately, the OP hit the jackpot with the surveyors. The difference between the broker and the surveyors was he chose the surveyors, he took a broker someone else had chosen.
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Old 04-15-2016, 07:23 PM   #98
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How would you know you had a good buyers broker?
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Old 04-15-2016, 09:30 PM   #99
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How would you know you had a good buyers broker?
Interview them. Detailed and specific questions. Interview more than one to give yourself a basis of comparison.

Get references.

Keep in regular communication with them.

If you don't feel they're doing the job, replace them.
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Old 04-15-2016, 09:53 PM   #100
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The mechanical survey is a bad as the initial survey and the engines have multiple fuel and oil leaks and are garbage...
You can separate the boat and mechanical surveys. Do the one you are more concerned about first. If it fails one, save your $, cancel the other.
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