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Old 02-01-2015, 04:50 PM   #141
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Band B maybe our different perspective here is that you want to measure a boat by your needs a good thing. What I am trying to do is measure the boat by its potential abilities and design compromises whether it be livability or performance and then apply that to needs. A boat that will do two things well such as sea keeping and livability will still have features that show which direction the designer had to lean and adding up the features will tell the whole story. I happen to own a 32.8 ft sail boat 6500lb 9.25 beam 478 ft sail area. When you step aboard you will note low freeboard big cockpit small cabin with no standing head room and many other comforts missing. If you then stepped aboard a Catalina 32 or any of the more common designs you will find many comforts and cottage elements including more beam and freeboard and weight. There is no question that most family people would and do consider these boats the better boat. So when we get out on the sound and we have to tack into the wind I get there in half the time with a more responsive capable boat. now which boat is the better boat and which is the better cottage. A significantly larger sailboat with the accommodations could meet the performance of my boat but not of a similar sized boat designed for boat performance over interior volume and creature comforts. So if you go big you can get adequate boat and luxury interior Walla the Hat 64, that is not to say the Hat could not be a better boat(not cottage) if weight beam freeboard and other changes were incorporated from the get go. And the people designing and building the lite long and skinny boats are trying to address that left side of my boat/cottage ratio. I understand this is not everybody's cup of tea especially on a trawler form where cottage features are very important .
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:14 PM   #142
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Band B maybe our different perspective here is that you want to measure a boat by your needs a good thing. What I am trying to do is measure the boat by its potential abilities and design compromises whether it be livability or performance and then apply that to needs. A boat that will do two things well such as sea keeping and livability will still have features that show which direction the designer had to lean and adding up the features will tell the whole story. I happen to own a 32.8 ft sail boat 6500lb 9.25 beam 478 ft sail area. When you step aboard you will note low freeboard big cockpit small cabin with no standing head room and many other comforts missing. If you then stepped aboard a Catalina 32 or any of the more common designs you will find many comforts and cottage elements including more beam and freeboard and weight. There is no question that most family people would and do consider these boats the better boat. So when we get out on the sound and we have to tack into the wind I get there in half the time with a more responsive capable boat. now which boat is the better boat and which is the better cottage. A significantly larger sailboat with the accommodations could meet the performance of my boat but not of a similar sized boat designed for boat performance over interior volume and creature comforts. So if you go big you can get adequate boat and luxury interior Walla the Hat 64, that is not to say the Hat could not be a better boat(not cottage) if weight beam freeboard and other changes were incorporated from the get go. And the people designing and building the lite long and skinny boats are trying to address that left side of my boat/cottage ratio. I understand this is not everybody's cup of tea especially on a trawler form where cottage features are very important .
All very true but both of us are creating a measure of "good boat" and they're both quite arbitrary. There is no finite definition of "better boat." It's all subjective. Light, long and skinny is perhaps your definition of a "better boat" but not mine. To some people, a Nortech of Fountain is the "better boat" because they're built for speed. A 47' Fountain will top 90 mph.

But debates like this are part of what makes it all interesting. We all have different tastes and even different definitions of a good boat. Sailors would say we're way off, that the only good boats use just the wind. But then if we think anchor arguments are tough, just go get into a monohull vs. catamaran argument with sailors.
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:07 AM   #143
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The biggest decision , esp for ex sailors, is weather to pay about 300% more for an an offshore capable vessel.

Most , even smaller sail boats can cross an ocean , not one in 100 power vessels can.

What defines Cruising when coming over to the dark side has to be realistically faced.
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Old 02-02-2015, 11:38 AM   #144
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The biggest decision , esp for ex sailors, is weather to pay about 300% more for an an offshore capable vessel.

Most , even smaller sail boats can cross an ocean , not one in 100 power vessels can.

What defines Cruising when coming over to the dark side has to be realistically faced.
Excellent point since most motor boats do not cross big open water and many spend most of their time on a hook or at a dock. what defines a good inland and costal boat may be very different than a ocean hopper. For example why have huge tanks to carry ageing fuel if you are always a few miles from a pump etc etc. The best boat is one that closely matches it's use patterns. Because a boat like a NH or KK has long range and can cross open water does not necessarily translate to being a good boat for other use.
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Old 02-03-2015, 12:22 PM   #145
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The biggest decision , esp for ex sailors, is weather to pay about 300% more for an an offshore capable vessel.
I'm not sure if this is true - I haven't done an exhaustive analysis on costs yet (I'm a sailer also moving to power) - but it seems like in some boats the cost is not 300% greater for the offshore-capable vessel (though it may be for some boats certainly). Specifically it seems more true for fiberglass boats like Nordhavn, but not true for aluminum boats like the Artnautica LRC 58.

I've seen estimates on the Morgan's Cloud website Analysis that this new boat will probably cost $600K - which is certainly not 300% higher than a 58 foot sailboat.
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:37 PM   #146
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I'm not sure if this is true - I haven't done an exhaustive analysis on costs yet (I'm a sailer also moving to power) - but it seems like in some boats the cost is not 300% greater for the offshore-capable vessel (though it may be for some boats certainly). Specifically it seems more true for fiberglass boats like Nordhavn, but not true for aluminum boats like the Artnautica LRC 58.

I've seen estimates on the Morgan's Cloud website Analysis that this new boat will probably cost $600K - which is certainly not 300% higher than a 58 foot sailboat.
"Will probably cost." Am I missing something? Do any finished models actually exist? I'm not sure how one even then talks about it's comparative cost. And what would a similar aluminum boat with no seaworthiness cost? I'm just not sure that it can be used to refute FF's statement.
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:48 AM   #147
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Most sailors coming over from the dark side purchase used boats.

There is a very large difference between a 45 ft TT that is a lakes bays and nearby inshore vessel ,
and a genuine passage maker.

WA quick check is to simply assess the fwd windows.

1/4 car glass set in wood or or 3/4 tempered glass in a metal frame.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:08 AM   #148
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I think to say that a passage maker costs 3 times more or simply to look at the windows is a generalization that does not fit the facts.

It's more an entire basket of things.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:32 PM   #149
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Why is it that every time the discussion of long, thin, efficient boats comes up the boat has to be aluminum and light displacement? Is it because fuel efficiency is so important… and why is that in reality? Very few boat owners put tremendous miles under their keels and therefore fuel costs are only a small fraction of boat ownership costs.

Since all boats are a compromise I suppose each one of us needs to be as honest as possible with ourselves about which aspect is the most important factor of our boat, e.g.:
1) Fuel efficiency;
2) Roominess and high "cottage value";
3) Comfort and motion at sea and at anchor;
4) Seaworthiness in extreme conditions;
etc.

Since my wife suffers from motion sickness, the most important factor for me will always be #3.

So perhaps a long, lean boat of heavy displacement, made from steel, with a deep draft and deep bilges, would be the ideal "long thin, hyper efficient trawler" in my case.
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:07 PM   #150
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Why is it that every time the discussion of long, thin, efficient boats comes up the boat has to be aluminum and light displacement? Is it because fuel efficiency is so important… and why is that in reality? Very few boat owners put tremendous miles under their keels and therefore fuel costs are only a small fraction of boat ownership costs.

Since all boats are a compromise I suppose each one of us needs to be as honest as possible with ourselves about which aspect is the most important factor of our boat, e.g.:
1) Fuel efficiency;
2) Roominess and high "cottage value";
3) Comfort and motion at sea and at anchor;
4) Seaworthiness in extreme conditions;
etc.

Since my wife suffers from motion sickness, the most important factor for me will always be #3.

So perhaps a long, lean boat of heavy displacement, made from steel, with a deep draft and deep bilges, would be the ideal "long thin, hyper efficient trawler" in my case.
What?

Hasn't anyone noticed that of the one trillion boats that have been made, there are about 3 (three) long skinny ones!!!

Please I read this thread for my daily chuckle, I didn't realize anyone was taking it seriously, not even L58, since his discussion was more on order of, how many Angels fit on the end of a pin.

At best, this design appeals to folks who want a sail boat. And guess what, for the money, they buy a really nice SAIL BOAT.

Thanks.
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Old 02-04-2015, 03:38 PM   #151
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What?

At best, this design appeals to folks who want a sail boat. And guess what, for the money, they buy a really nice SAIL BOAT.

Thanks.
I am and always have been on the side of sail for long blue water use. It has to do with my perception of sea keeping abilities comfort and general safety and yes there is also economy even under power a sail boats long thin hull is efficient. Not all sea going sail boats have to be heavy clam crusher types many lighter modern designs including multi hulls have more than proven there blue water ability. So why the trawler for blue water? I can only make some guesses. Some people for various reasons are not familiar with sail or up for dealing with the sails and rig, others want or need more cottage in there boat volume home comforts big windows particularly while on hook or dock etc.. It comes down to the ubiquitous matter of personal preference. But I will still say the well found sail boat is better suited for the blue water use and that is no secret the very vast majority of pleasure boat ocean hopers are and have been sail boats. Trawlers are new kids on the block.
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:37 PM   #152
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I beg to differ. Tad Roberts line of "Passagemaker Light" vsls have been made in Wood/epoxy.
I haven't followed it in a while but someone had a nice build going in South Africa of one of these.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:11 PM   #153
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I once heard a rhyme: "Long and thin gets `em in, short and thick does the trick". Wonder if that applies other than to boats?
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:12 PM   #154
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What?

Hasn't anyone noticed that of the one trillion boats that have been made, there are about 3 (three) long skinny ones!!!

.
Don't forget the long thin MVs from a century ago that were the standard for both blue water and coastal cruising.

Fortunately there are enough different old and new MV designs out there that all sorts of chuckles can be had.
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:01 PM   #155
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I beg to differ. Tad Roberts line of "Passagemaker Light" vsls have been made in Wood/epoxy.
I haven't followed it in a while but someone had a nice build going in South Africa of one of these.
According to it's dedicated site "Ataraxia" is not completed and for sale (without engines).
I like the long/skinny concept and really hope the Artnautica LRC will be a success.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:43 PM   #156
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I'm seeing more and more "Long and Thin" designs. Here is another new one just launched - admittedly on the very expensive end of the market - but again, designed by a sailboat designer and sailboat building company I believe.





Full story on this new boat here:Perini Navi's Amazing GRACE E

It seems that these design efforts on power boats from traditional sailboat designers (e.g. Dashew, and now the Artnautica) are building up steam and becoming even more popular each year.

Of course - they aren't for everyone, but I think that they'll gain more and more of the market as people learn about them..
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:03 PM   #157
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You can probably tell at a glance those boats that lean toward efficiency as they won't have the very stylish and very raked stems. Stems leaning toward efficiency will be close to vertical to have the greatest WLL as practical. Nordhavn only built one raked stem boat ... The N46. It's a bit similar to my Willard and optimized to low fuel burn w/o much or any concern for speed. Most all the mega yachts have extremely raked bows.

The view from the bridge on the boat above must be a bit like the view from the bridge of a battleship but the battleship will have an extremely wide beam. Battleships are much bigger than their overall length would suggest.
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Old 02-14-2015, 07:12 PM   #158
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Ok maybe there should be a long lean/fuel cost ratio. So when fuel costs go up we would expect to see more long and lean activity talk or build, and when fuel prices dive less long and lean activity. As a side note the guy who designed and built my boat is trying to get someone to build a light skinny version claiming much improved fuel burn but then again his estimates of fuel burn seem to be optimistic in general.
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:10 PM   #159
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Yes - shorter term price adjustments as we've seen will likely impact the shorter term demand for less fuel-efficient boats (as we've seen in the car market and Trucks/SUV sales recently). But I think the longer term trend, and general interest and emphasis on efficiency will move people in this direction over time.

Interestingly - was reading up on this forum about the European purchasing discussion - and stumbled upon another longer leaner design - one that looks very, very similar to the Dashew FPB - but a little more modern / European in its design. Check this out:









Full Details, pricing and more images here:

http://www.elburgyachting.nl/sp/s5043nl.htm

"June 2012 - What is most striking when you look at the NED 70 of the Dutch company Ned Yacht is the length/width ratio of 4:1. The slender shape of this stunning new motoryacht is accentuated by the angle of the windows in the wheelhouse and the shape of the stanchions. This brand new motoryacht was designed by the international well-known Vripack Naval Architects according to the so-called ‘LDL-principle’. This means that not the ships volume is essential, but the lines of the ship itself are leading in the design. Of course the completely aluminium NED 70 is provided with all luxury you can image. But also the range of this special ship is stunning. You can cross the Atlantic and pick an anchor bay on Barbados, but also cruise the British east coast or the Dutch ‘Wadden-area’.

The lines of the NED 70 are sharp and angular. These contours make the yacht look slender and a little ‘mean’. Designed according to LDL, in which LDL stands for Low Displacement Length. A modern word, but a principle that is at least one century old. In the days that engines were not as powerful as they are nowadays it was essential to have a length/width ratio of at least 4:1 to make sure ships were able of good cruising speeds. To make sure that the NED 70 behaves well in waves, the hull is provided with bilge keels and stabilizers that will eliminate rocking in waves. The bilge keels have a second advantage: they make it possible to let the NED 70 easily dry out in tidal areas."

Technical specifications:
LOA : 21.45 m
BOA : 5.49 m
Draft : 0.96 m (at half load)
Propulsion : 2x John Deere 6068 SFM 50 M5, 300 hp/2.600 rpm
Cruising speed : 9 knots
Maximum speed : 15 knots
Range : 3.300 Nautical miles at 9 knots cruising speed
Fuel : 8.400 litres
Water : 1.500 litres
Designer : Vripack
Naval Architect : Vripack
Builder : NED Yacht BV

Source:

http://hollandyachtinggroup.com/EN/5...-powerful.html
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Old 02-14-2015, 09:09 PM   #160
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I'm seeing more and more "Long and Thin" designs. Here is another new one just launched - admittedly on the very expensive end of the market - but again, designed by a sailboat designer and sailboat building company I believe.
Long thin...wide...hyper efficient. PJ Super Sport.

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