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Old 01-30-2015, 07:12 PM   #121
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Has anybody heard of the boat cottage ratio? I don't think so its something in my head and just decided to pop out. So it works like this I look at a boat and start thinking how much of this particular boat or design is basic boat and how much emphasis is on living volume and cottage on the water stuff. As I look at long lite and skinny I am thinking 90% basic boat 10% cottage. When I look at a KK or NH or Seline my thoughts go to 40% boat and 60% cottage. A house boat would go to 90% cottage and 10% boat. For me it is a helpful slide ruler to measure a craft against its intended use.
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Old 01-30-2015, 07:59 PM   #122
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Has anybody heard of the boat cottage ratio?
No I hadn't. But I like it.
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:46 PM   #123
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I'm not sure I share the analogy. The word 'cottage' sounds negative to me, when used in the same sentence with 'boat',,, like 'Cottage' is a bad thing? Perhaps it's just me.

I think we all agree that one's boat must fit their mission. When this is accomplished, it becomes the perfect boat. It really does seem that simple to me.

Btw, I love your boat, and everything Sam puts his hands on. Beautiful boats.
I bought some of his plans at Christmas.
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Old 01-31-2015, 04:23 AM   #124
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I'm not sure I share the analogy. The word 'cottage' sounds negative to me, when used in the same sentence with 'boat',,, like 'Cottage' is a bad thing? Perhaps it's just me.

I think we all agree that one's boat must fit their mission. When this is accomplished, it becomes the perfect boat. It really does seem that simple to me.

Btw, I love your boat, and everything Sam puts his hands on. Beautiful boats.
I bought some of his plans at Christmas
.
+1
That guy is a seriously good designer. Even his small boats have a jaunty flair to them, and going on the premise ' if it looks right.......'

Love his lines.
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:11 AM   #125
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I think most of our boats here fall into a Cottage Ratio of about 65 to 75% Cottage. Sport fisher about 35 to 45% Cottage. But our trawlers are more like house boats. Slow and comfortable.

eyschulman,
Got any more interesting stuff about ready to pop out .. of your head?? I'm game.
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Old 01-31-2015, 11:49 AM   #126
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I don't see cottage on the water as a bad thing. People all over the world pay big bucks to live on the water. For those who want to take their land based comforts with them its a win win situation. Here in Seattle we have a large floating boat house population. I see only benefit in judging a boat by its abilities and usability thus the boat cottage ratio. This type of thinking could help people choose the right boat for them and have it match how it will be used. That different ratios would be applied by different observers is expected but with a larger sample a realistic average could be obtained.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:12 PM   #127
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100% boat and 100% home. That's the way we look at it. Must perform as we'd expect a boat to and must be livable for the amount of time we intend to spend on it. It's not either/or, it's both. That's what makes the selection so complicated. You are selecting both.

Also, even as you reduce the living quarters in the boat, I don't see that reducing their importance. If anything it puts more pressure on that aspect. If it's 100' with 3 staterooms, it's pretty easy to make it into a home. But the liveability of a 32' with 1.5 staterooms is more challenging and extremely important to enjoying a lot of time on the boat.
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Old 01-31-2015, 06:14 PM   #128
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100% boat and 100% home. That's the way we look at it. Must perform as we'd expect a boat to and must be livable for the amount of time we intend to spend on it. It's not either/or, it's both. That's what makes the selection so complicated. You are selecting both.

Also, even as you reduce the living quarters in the boat, I don't see that reducing their importance. If anything it puts more pressure on that aspect. If it's 100' with 3 staterooms, it's pretty easy to make it into a home. But the liveability of a 32' with 1.5 staterooms is more challenging and extremely important to enjoying a lot of time on the boat.
The problem with 100%+100% is it =200% and the designer and builder has to juggle with that reality. More volume and more stuff for home comfort can and often does impact heavily on function. The ideal is to find a good balance and when you do you will be possibly 100% happy, but you should understand there will be compromises. The smaller the boat the harder it is to get volume and home like comfort, and it becomes easy to push the boat/cottage ratio to the right. On a large boat if one will give up some luxuries and interior volume it is easier to push the ratio to the left not that many owners or builders would do so, for then you end up with long and skinny. If someone does not appreciate the compromises in any given design than they would not be looking with an educated eye because they are there.
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:05 PM   #129
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The problem with 100%+100% is it =200% and the designer and builder has to juggle with that reality. More volume and more stuff for home comfort can and often does impact heavily on function. The ideal is to find a good balance and when you do you will be possibly 100% happy, but you should understand there will be compromises. The smaller the boat the harder it is to get volume and home like comfort, and it becomes easy to push the boat/cottage ratio to the right. On a large boat if one will give up some luxuries and interior volume it is easier to push the ratio to the left not that many owners or builders would do so, for then you end up with long and skinny. If someone does not appreciate the compromises in any given design than they would not be looking with an educated eye because they are there.
We're greedy so sticking with 200%. lol

Both parts of the equation you're trying to get as close to 100% as possible, but it's 100% of the intended use and that varies widely. On the boat part of the equation, it's not the boat to end all boats, but it's the boat that will do what you need. If it's to cover short distances with fuel economy as the priority then it might be a 7 knot boat. On the other hand, if it's to cross oceans, much different. Or if you want to be able to cross to Nassau in less than a day, very much different.

Same on the home portion. Home isn't to match what your land home might be like. It's situation appropriate. If you're going to live on it, then it might require one set of features. If just weekends, it would be more like perhaps a small lake hideaway. If you rarely spend a night on it, then more like the size of a motel room is adequate. You can come closer than one might think to you individual 100% on both sides simply by being sure you've defined your needs and desires fully.

We each are much different in those respects. But if we're careful in defining our requirements, we can come amazingly close. Now if we start off with an unreasonable combination of boat and home, you're right, a lot of compromise and probably won't fulfill either very well. But that's true on both sides separately as well. If I want to go 80 knots and get at least 2 nmpg, then I just need to start over and redefine my goals.

To me ultimately the key to boat selection is carefully defining your requirements and whether we call it home and boat or cottage or 100/100 or 30/70 or however we look at it, we each need to do that aspect carefully. If we do then the perfect boat for us is out there. But what that is, varies by every individual. And where couples are involved, they have to agree on one set of requirements.
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:53 PM   #130
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Does a hyper-efficient boat wiggle and shake w excitement as it moves through the water?
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:14 PM   #131
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Does a hyper-efficient boat wiggle and shake w excitement as it moves through the water?
Not if properly powered and its hull is shaped right and has some form of keel or fin. I have read that a 35 foot lobster boat with like 800hp will wiggle wildly at top speed.
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:24 PM   #132
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100% boat and 100% home. That's the way we look at it. Must perform as we'd expect a boat to and must be livable for the amount of time we intend to spend on it. It's not either/or, it's both. That's what makes the selection so complicated. You are selecting both.

Also, even as you reduce the living quarters in the boat, I don't see that reducing their importance. If anything it puts more pressure on that aspect. If it's 100' with 3 staterooms, it's pretty easy to make it into a home. But the liveability of a 32' with 1.5 staterooms is more challenging and extremely important to enjoying a lot of time on the boat.
I don't know what your budget is but have you come across the Linssen boats. They are a long time popular line of steel boats built in Holland. These boats are known for being robust and their smaller models 34ft and less are roomy. Since the euro is diving against the $ it may be possible to pick one of these up in Europe and eventually transport for a reasonable price. Linssen made a lot of boats very popular so there are many on the used market.
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Old 02-01-2015, 04:20 AM   #133
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We're greedy so sticking with 200%. lol

Both parts of the equation you're trying to get as close to 100% as possible, but it's 100% of the intended use and that varies widely. On the boat part of the equation, it's not the boat to end all boats, but it's the boat that will do what you need. If it's to cover short distances with fuel economy as the priority then it might be a 7 knot boat. On the other hand, if it's to cross oceans, much different. Or if you want to be able to cross to Nassau in less than a day, very much different.

Same on the home portion. Home isn't to match what your land home might be like. It's situation appropriate. If you're going to live on it, then it might require one set of features. If just weekends, it would be more like perhaps a small lake hideaway. If you rarely spend a night on it, then more like the size of a motel room is adequate. You can come closer than one might think to you individual 100% on both sides simply by being sure you've defined your needs and desires fully.

We each are much different in those respects. But if we're careful in defining our requirements, we can come amazingly close. Now if we start off with an unreasonable combination of boat and home, you're right, a lot of compromise and probably won't fulfill either very well. But that's true on both sides separately as well. If I want to go 80 knots and get at least 2 nmpg, then I just need to start over and redefine my goals.

To me ultimately the key to boat selection is carefully defining your requirements and whether we call it home and boat or cottage or 100/100 or 30/70 or however we look at it, we each need to do that aspect carefully. If we do then the perfect boat for us is out there. But what that is, varies by every individual. And where couples are involved, they have to agree on one set of requirements.


I see your point and like it. 50/50 sounds like too much of a compromise, in that it implies you only have half a home.

The two are not mutually exclusive, therefore assigning 100 points to each makes some sense to me.
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:31 AM   #134
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Euro boats importing might be worthwhile , but remember their Power Pile is usually 240V - 50 CPS.

There are cures , but none are cheap.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:05 AM   #135
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Euro boats importing might be worthwhile , but remember their Power Pile is usually 240V - 50 CPS.

There are cures , but none are cheap.
Yes, there are Euro boats converted to US and there are those built from the start for the US market. Riva, for instance, designates the boat at the start of production and basically it's a separate model. There are a few other differences as well on some boats.

When Viking was selling Princess in the US as Viking Yachts, they had Princess make quite a few modifications for the US market. Now, other than electrical, many of those ultimately made it to the Euro boats as well. Galley up was one of the first things. In Europe, it was felt that would never be accepted there as the galley had to be kept apart from the living area. But then some started wanting the US version and gradually galley up became just as common in Europe.

Conversions however of the electrical and machinery is a major undertaking and done right it is very costly.
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:59 AM   #136
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Yes, there are Euro boats converted to US and there are those built from the start for the US market. Riva, for instance, designates the boat at the start of production and basically it's a separate model. There are a few other differences as well on some boats.

When Viking was selling Princess in the US as Viking Yachts, they had Princess make quite a few modifications for the US market. Now, other than electrical, many of those ultimately made it to the Euro boats as well. Galley up was one of the first things. In Europe, it was felt that would never be accepted there as the galley had to be kept apart from the living area. But then some started wanting the US version and gradually galley up became just as common in Europe.

Conversions however of the electrical and machinery is a major undertaking and done right it is very costly.
Having a strong Dutch connection, I ended up actually looking at, as in visiting, a lot more Dutch boats than anything else. About a dozen in the Netherlands and one in Jersey City.

At the time I really liked that they were steel and I felt they looked "modern".

The more I looked, three things I didn't like stood out:

Fuel tankage would have been an issue in virtually all of them,
The pilot house was often not separate and behind and above the salon, but conducive to night travel.
The engine rooms were all very small with limited access. The engines were also Yamar or Volvo, both a little too sophisticated for me.

Prices were also high and stayed high even after the crash.

I could see them for a non live aboard coastal cruiser.
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Old 02-01-2015, 12:45 PM   #137
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I see your point and like it. 50/50 sounds like too much of a compromise, in that it implies you only have half a home.

The two are not mutually exclusive, therefore assigning 100 points to each makes some sense to me.
The problem is that for each home comfort the boat has to accommodate there is a price to pay possibly in volume freeboard deck space access air height windage beam or weight etc. . Adding these comforts pushes the ratio to the right(cottage) toward your needs or desires but often at the expense of the basic boat design for that size boat. There is no value judgment in a ratio merely a statement of relative weighting of its elements. Put another way if you take a boat that is designed and built to be a good live aboard(cottage end of ratio) then have a NA design a boat of the same length with the instructions to make it the best functional boat dam the accommodations and comforts you will be pushing the ratio to the left and probably end up with less living space beam freeboard and a lower CG etc.etc.
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Old 02-01-2015, 12:57 PM   #138
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The problem is that for each home comfort the boat has to accommodate there is a price to pay possibly in volume freeboard deck space access air height windage beam or weight etc. . Adding these comforts pushes the ratio to the right(cottage) toward your needs or desires but often at the expense of the basic boat design for that size boat. There is no value judgment in a ratio merely a statement of relative weighting of its elements.
Perhaps at the expense of what you consider a basic boat design, but others see that much differently. I'll just give one example.

Boat design requirements: Must cruise at greater than 20 knots. Should be able to handle ocean waters in rough conditions. Smooth ride. Twin Engines. Must have at least 250 nm range at cruise and 500 nm range at an economic speed of 10-12 knots.

Home requirements: Must have large master stateroom and nice second stateroom, both with baths and separate shower stalls. Salon with good daylight and galley up. Flybridge to enjoy the outdoors. Suitable for a couple living on for months at a time.

Boat that accomplishes those 100%/100%. Hatteras 60 MY.

No compromise in either area. Now, I know that example is about as far from your tastes as possible, but it very well might be exactly someone else's tastes. A perfect boat is different for everyone.

And for the record, we do not have a Hatteras, just using as an example.
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Old 02-01-2015, 01:35 PM   #139
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The boat fills your stated requirements but could it be a better boat if it had less accommodation. Bigger boats make it easier to fill both shoes but there are still weighted compromises not as extreme as in small boats..
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Old 02-01-2015, 02:04 PM   #140
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The boat fills your stated requirements but could it be a better boat if it had less accommodation. Bigger boats make it easier to fill both shoes but there are still weighted compromises not as extreme as in small boats..
No, it meets the requirements on the boat side perfectly. There isn't anything more required to make it a "better boat". Better boat isn't a fixed definition or abstract. It is what meets one's boating needs best. What makes a good boat is different for everyone based on their requirements. What you consider the perfect boat, I'd have no interest at all in as a boat, forgetting the other aspects altogether. I might consider it very nice for what it is, but what it is isn't what I'd want.

I don't argue that ultimately people make some compromise, but I think you are overstating the amount of compromise many people must make. Now if they go into the process with boat desires and home desires that are totally incompatible then they will only get a lower percentage of each. But most people don't go in like that. Their expectations and definitions are reasonable. We need to be careful that we don't project our own personal ideas of the perfect boat onto others.

A lot of what we choose is so subjective. I have a friend looking to move up in boats. I know the perfect boat for him, meets all his requirements as a boat and vacation home. Except one problem. He thinks it's ugly. So he's still looking.
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