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Old 01-27-2015, 11:18 AM   #81
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What a beauty.
Oh no, someone else did it first
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:20 PM   #82
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Folks seem to think hauling a keel along is a waste.

The keel weight is almost the only way of having offshore ultimate stability , coming up right side after a 180 deg roll.

At SL of about 1 a ton of weight only requires about 2 or 3 hp per ton , so a 5 ton keel would cost under 1 GPH to tote along.

You pay for insurance , your heirs will thank you for ,
why not some righting ability as insurance , YOU can profit from?
Long, thin boats like the Dashew FPB and Artnautica LRC 58 - have great ultimate stability and don't have to carry all that unnecessary weight.

Dashew does a great job of explaining the factors that affect stability in the real world in this article: SetSail » Blog Archive » Evaluating Stability and Capsize Risks For Yachts

More info here: SetSail and Long Range Cruiser 58: a fuel-efficient boat. - Dennis Harjamaa Yacht Design, Elegant Yachts, Aluminium, Fuel-Efficient, Sailing, Cruising Boats.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:47 PM   #83
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Long, thin boats like the Dashew FPB and Artnautica LRC 58 - have great ultimate stability and don't have to carry all that unnecessary weight.

Dashew does a great job of explaining the factors that affect stability in the real world in this article: SetSail » Blog Archive » Evaluating Stability and Capsize Risks For Yachts

More info here: SetSail and Long Range Cruiser 58: a fuel-efficient boat. - Dennis Harjamaa Yacht Design, Elegant Yachts, Aluminium, Fuel-Efficient, Sailing, Cruising Boats.

For those of you too tired to read the above citations, I will be glad to quote them to you, in sum:

1. We know what we are doing; no one else does. We have no idea why they keep designing those death traps.

2. Just look at our graphs. We can also use Excel to prove that the Sun revolves around the Earth, but that is on a different website.

3. We do our boat designing at the center of the maritime world, Tucson Arizona.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:50 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
For those of you too tired to read the above citations, I will be glad to quote them to you, in sum:



1. We know what we are doing; no one else does. We have no idea why they keep designing those death traps.



2. Just look at our graphs. We can also use Excel to prove that the Sun revolves around the Earth, but that is on a different website.



3. We do our boat designing at the center of the maritime world, Tucson Arizona.

Hit it dead center on the head!
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:28 PM   #85
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For those of you too tired to read the above citations, I will be glad to quote them to you, in sum:

1. We know what we are doing; no one else does. We have no idea why they keep designing those death traps.
...
I'll make it simpler by just quoting the manufacturer stability measurements:

Dashew FPB: "Although the FPB 64 specifications call for 130 degrees this shows ultimate stability remains positive until 150 degrees."

Kadey Krogen 42 Stability: "Range of positive stability.....85 degrees"
Source: http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/krognfaq.txt

Which one would you rather cross oceans on?
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Old 01-27-2015, 04:03 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by LRC58Fan View Post
I'll make it simpler by just quoting the manufacturer stability measurements:

Dashew FPB: "Although the FPB 64 specifications call for 130 degrees this shows ultimate stability remains positive until 150 degrees."

Kadey Krogen 42 Stability: "Range of positive stability.....85 degrees"
Source: http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/krognfaq.txt

Which one would you rather cross oceans on?
If I had to choose one or the other, I'd go with the Kadey. However, personally I'd choose a bigger boat, but I would never choose the Dashew. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. It just means it does not appeal to our tastes or desires at all. It would be nice if Dashew fans would present it as a different concept well executed rather than Dashew as a God. You don't have to put another boat down to build one up. And comparing a 42 to a 64? If you want stability, why not go Elling? They put on a nice little show. There are a lot of consideration in selection of a boat beyond the stability measurements. But I'm not a minimalist, would get claustrophobic trying to sleep on that boat. For many of the reasons I'd have no desire to cross in a sailboat, I wouldn't in a Dashew 64 either.

Think of this. If it was truly the be all end all perfection of boats, wouldn't there be a few thousand or at least a few hundred sold? And don't say he can't make that many. Easy to set up a factory. In reality there is no boat that is for everyone. The greatest selling boat out there has a minuscule total market share.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:00 PM   #87
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What we are seeing here is a return to the lite displacement/length type of boat(long and skinny). What is new is that the materials and building techniques are now available to make the lite part realistic. Builders down under and in Europe are trying to introduce production models along these lines. Some have already done some impressive sea miles. The secret is keeping it lite and that means Spartan interiors relative to the common summer cottage trawler types. As Tad has pointed out start adding junk and you ruin the whole concept.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:11 PM   #88
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What we are seeing here is a return to the lite displacement/length type of boat(long and skinny). What is new is that the materials and building techniques are now available to make the lite part realistic. Builders down under and in Europe are trying to introduce production models along these lines. Some have already done some impressive sea miles. The secret is keeping it lite and that means Spartan interiors relative to the common summer cottage trawler types. As Tad has pointed out start adding junk and you ruin the whole concept.
One man's junk is another man's treasures. We like our junk. We like every electronic available, air conditioning, watermaker, generators. You name it.

One of your key phrases too is that "builders...are trying to introduce". So far not a lot of it sold. I hope it does develop for those who like it. But it's still got to prove itself viable in the market to do so.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:32 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by LRC58Fan View Post
Dashew FPB: "Although the FPB 64 specifications call for 130 degrees this shows ultimate stability remains positive until 150 degrees."

Kadey Krogen 42 Stability: "Range of positive stability.....85 degrees"
Source: http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/krognfaq.txt

Which one would you rather cross oceans on?


Did you REALLY just compare a 2+ million dollar, brand new, purpose built passage maker boat to a 20+ year old $250-350,000 one that is over 20 feet shorter and not built specifically to cross oceans, although it obviously can???

Or are you trying to convince yourself Dashew and Artnautica make good boats?

If it is the former wow, just wow...

If the latter sign a purchase contract and have one built, I'd love to hear your impressions of cruising one. I might if the wherewithal and desire for a boat like it was in me. The only oceans I cross will be at well over 400 mph and 30+ thousand feet above them.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:40 PM   #90
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:08 PM   #91
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Did you REALLY just compare a 2+ million dollar, brand new, purpose built passage maker boat to a 20+ year old $250-350,000 one that is over 20 feet shorter and not built specifically to cross oceans, although it obviously can???
But even then he only compared them on one characteristic.

Let's see....Master stateroom and master bed? Kk
Air conditioned comfort? KK
Sleeping quarters for guests? KK

Any of us can pick just the characteristics favorable to our argument.
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Old 01-27-2015, 10:12 PM   #92
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Way back when I used to be a multi hull sailor we all understood that adding weight to a multi killed its performance. When big fat heavy cats started popping up in the warm water charter trade we figured it was a local aberration and would not go anywhere. Well now some 30 years later these boats overloaded by our old standards are everywhere with couples living aboard and making significant passages. I don't know that long and skinny is going to do the same thing but it would not surprise me. A lot may depend on fuel costs marketing and how fast people want to cross open water so I wont discount the type or those who are building them. Nigel Irens one of the leading NA associated with fast world trotting boats is heavy into this design trend. For those interested the last issue of Wooden Boat Magazine has an article on this type of design.
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Old 01-27-2015, 10:19 PM   #93
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My previous vessel was a sailboat with wide beam which provided much stability, the boat having minimal ballast and a shallow keel. Makes me wonder of the stability of ultra-thin motor vessels.
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Old 01-27-2015, 10:44 PM   #94
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My previous vessel was a sailboat with wide beam which provided much stability, the boat having minimal ballast and a shallow keel. Makes me wonder of the stability of ultra-thin motor vessels.

In order to cope with stability a good design in the long ultra light narrow boat class, usually has a low center of gravity. If you put high cabins and weight aloft what you worry about will be real. A forty+ foot boat with emphasis on the LD/L concept will maybe have Spartan 30 ft boat accommodations. If the design concept is keep pure you can have a good sea boat speed and economy. Luxury would only be possible in large sizes and some have already been built and well tested read Wooden Boat Mag recent issue.
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Old 01-28-2015, 08:05 AM   #95
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Long and skinney has 2 advantages , Its the most seakindly shape and can be driven at a higher speed with lower fuel penalty.

As only 1 in a few hundred folks actually go passage making #1 is moot.

As most cruisers will attempt to travel at a low fuel burn the second is very limited.

A 36 ft LWL beach ball will be efficient at about 6K, the same volume in 50 ft LWL skinny boat would be quite efficient at 7K .

Not much speed increase for the huge added dock bills.

But what a ride in Force 9.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:25 AM   #96
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FF the lite version of that 50 footer will do far better than 7K with very good fuel burn. Read Wooden Boat Mag. last issue.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:27 AM   #97
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Way back when I used to be a multi hull sailor we all understood that adding weight to a multi killed its performance. When big fat heavy cats started popping up in the warm water charter trade we figured it was a local aberration and would not go anywhere. Well now some 30 years later these boats overloaded by our old standards are everywhere with couples living aboard and making significant passages. I don't know that long and skinny is going to do the same thing but it would not surprise me. ...Nigel Irens one of the leading NA associated with fast world trotting boats is heavy into this design trend. For those interested the last issue of Wooden Boat Magazine has an article on this type of design.
Yes - while the Longer, Thinner design is becoming popular in all categories of boat just because of its greater efficiency - you are right in that we see the bigger, heavier designs also becoming more common.

See here for just the most recent example of this:


Full Details on this new boat here:

Feadship Launches SAVANNAH — the world's flagship hybrid
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:40 AM   #98
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FF the lite version of that 50 footer will do far better than 7K with very good fuel burn. Read Wooden Boat Mag. last issue.
Thanks for the pointer to the Nigel Irens article in Wooden Boat Magazine about the "Motorboats of the Future - Nigel Irens and the fast and frugal power cruiser by Nic Compton" It looks really good and I'll check it out. Here is a link to their facebook page with and overview and more discussion of the article.

https://www.facebook.com/WoodenBoatP...55062300915603

PS - for those criticizing the stability references of the Dashew FPB vs. the Kadey Krogen - it was just a reference to the stabilities of the boats because the discussion got moved toward that issue. I love the Dauntless stories of cruising to Europe in a 42 foot KK - its just not something I would do with my family. More power to him. When I go - it will be in a longer, thinner and faster design.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:49 AM   #99
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A 36 ft LWL beach ball will be efficient at about 6K, the same volume in 50 ft LWL skinny boat would be quite efficient at 7K .

Not much speed increase for the huge added dock bills.

But what a ride in Force 9.
Actually - you'd be looking at around 11 to 12 Knots for that 50+ footer long thin design. Here are the actual numbers for the artnautica - and the actual speed / fuel burn graph:

Top speed is over 11 knots on just 75 horsepower.

Fuel burn at 9 knots equates to just .88 litres for each nautical mile or a bit better than 4 miles to the US gallon. Contrast that with the average recreational trawler of similar interior volume that has hell to make 6 knots at that fuel burn.

Drop the speed to a bit over 7 knots and fuel burn drops to .66 litres for each nautical mile or 7 miles to the US gallona number that will make the boat not only far more economical than any recreational trawler out there, but also cheaper to own than just about any offshore sailboat of the same volume.



Source:

A Real Sailor’s Motorboat Launched
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:50 AM   #100
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I'll make it simpler by just quoting the manufacturer stability measurements:

Dashew FPB: "Although the FPB 64 specifications call for 130 degrees this shows ultimate stability remains positive until 150 degrees."

Kadey Krogen 42 Stability: "Range of positive stability.....85 degrees"
Source: http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/krognfaq.txt

Which one would you rather cross oceans on?
Ah, Richard, aka Wxx3, crossed the Atlantic in the Dauntless, a KK 42, so I guess that is his answer.

I happen to like the FPB 64s, except the active stabilization, , but I will never have the money to buy a Dashew boat so it is a moot point. For the price of a FPB 64, I can buy new, two or three of the boats we want to buy. I can sink a couple of boats, not likely I hope, and still spend less money. The stabilization curve is important but it is only one variable in the boat buying decision.

While I like the FPB 64, the larger FPB's just don't look right to me. Of the long, thin trawlers, the FPB 64 is the only one that looks good to me. Very subjective of course, and I can see why some people do not like the looks of a FPB at all.. Steve Jobs boat just looks horrid. When I first saw the photo of Job's boat in this thread, I thought it was an office building, not a boat.

Later,
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