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Old 08-27-2014, 06:33 PM   #21
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Add the weight of the gyro, the generator to run it, and the fuel for the generator....then up the main engine to compensate for increased drag due to increased displacement, and make the hull a bit bigger to compensate.....and so it goes until you end up with a 100,000 monster.

The boat has a mast and poles to tow paravanes, simple and relatively inexpensive.
The only pictures I saw of it did not show that it was set up for paravanes. I guess you could set it up either way.

It's going to have a Genset anyway I assume. But I could be wrong. But if I'm not then the only added weight would be the gyro. Plus you would have to take in account drag from the vanes, no?

I see your points. But I still like the gyro.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:32 PM   #22
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Yes - its set up for paravanes (see image below). I think the goal is to have the boat as simple as possible - to minimize problems, and so that the typical owner can do their own repairs if there are repairs. Toilet is pump, not electric, as is the shower. The starting point - much like Dashew - is much more a sailboat-like design, than a downsized full displacement trawler design. I think this is the right approach - my key competitive approach that I'm considering is really a sailboat - not a full displacement trawler - just because they are too expensive (and don't have as good rough sea performance as the long-thin designs).

Tad - I think that this design is actually very similar to your own in many ways, philosophically at least, if not exactly in implementation. I like your designs a great deal also.

PassagemakerLite 56 fast, seaworthy, fuel-efficient long-range ocean cruiser ~ Power Boat Designs by Tad Roberts

This design uses only a single 75 hp engine - vs. your 56 ft design of your with two of these engines.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:34 PM   #23
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Oops - forgot the image of the ArtNautica 58 with paravane poll design:

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Old 08-27-2014, 07:44 PM   #24
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And another thing. If you are that concerned about oil price get something like the Kadey Krogen 42. There are two of them crossing oceans right now. Not for me, I'd want more boat. But the KK's are getting over 4nm/g. For any given trip the FPB or its knockoff will have a much, much higher fuel bill.
Hey Brian....Thanks for the vote and I hope the world is treating you well. We're just winding down the longest-hottest summer in recent memory.

Your point is well taken, the will to go is far more important than the particular vessel, and you don't need a million$ boat to cross an ocean....But that doesn't sell many new boats....
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:52 PM   #25
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I actually would not like the windows in the hull, nor would I like the lack of a view when I was inside the boat. I looked at Fisher motorsailers while shopping and the windows are more to let in light than to see out of. Not what I go out on the water to enjoy. There appears to be a tremendous amount of wasted space on the exterior of the boat and very little useable space on the exterior. An unfortunate combination. Fishing off the stern looks like it's best activity, other than cruising while in the cabin. The wrong compromises for me...
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:59 PM   #26
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The only pictures I saw of it did not show that it was set up for paravanes. I guess you could set it up either way.

It's going to have a Genset anyway I assume. But I could be wrong. But if I'm not then the only added weight would be the gyro. Plus you would have to take in account drag from the vanes, no?

I see your points. But I still like the gyro.
Oh no question the Seakeeper is nice bit of kit, but.....it takes discipline to create light boats that burn little fuel. I have found few folks are serious when it comes right down to it. They want space and comfort, toys, ease of use, and room for extras. There will always be a few outliers, the long and skinny and the short and fat, but most will buy something middle-of-the-road.

It's a bit difficult to nail down exactly what will be in the Artnautica, but going through the Facebook pictures I found no mention of a generator or AC, so I assumed no genny.

The paravanes do drag when deployed, but not when aboard the boat. And (depending on the details) the poles and vanes would be lighter than the gyro. One of the major benefits of paravanes is anyone can maintain and repair them......
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:01 PM   #27
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At least with that big, open transom, it won't need scuppers if "pooped" like Dauntless!
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:11 PM   #28
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This design uses only a single 75 hp engine - vs. your 56 ft design of your with two of these engines.
The power is a minimum, he'll be doing well to get 12 knots I think. My 56' is close to 20,000 pounds heavier so a different boat. But respect to Mr. Harjamaa for actually building her and we'll see when she's launched
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:40 PM   #29
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It's a bit difficult to nail down exactly what will be in the Artnautica, but going through the Facebook pictures I found no mention of a generator or AC, so I assumed no genny.
No A/C in a metal boat with big windows!? Good luck with that in the tropics.
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Old 08-27-2014, 11:31 PM   #30
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One of his Facebook post interactions his friend chides him for no AC. His basic reply was learn how to suck it up and go native.
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:02 AM   #31
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Butt ugly, in my opinion, just like the Dashew boats.
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:19 AM   #32
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One of his Facebook post interactions his friend chides him for no AC. His basic reply was learn how to suck it up and go native.
Ha! Good answer.

But it will lead to dinning alone a lot I would think. It's never good when the odor of the dinners over powers the fragrance of the meal.

Not to mention all the fresh water you'd need to carry/make for all the extra showing going on.

Then again, I guess if you go full native you either just wash with salt water or wait for a good rain.
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:36 AM   #33
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No A/C in a metal boat with big windows!? Good luck with that in the tropics.
It seems that Steve Dashew, who has cruised a lot in his FPB 83, rarely uses air-conditioning when they are cruising (but do use AC when docked):

"in our case, we do not expect to spend time in the tropics during the summer; we are designed to use awnings to reduce the heat load; and we prefer a warmer environment (i.e. 78F as opposed to 68F).

SetSail┬╗ Blog Archive ┬╗ Air Conditioning Specifications

But - whatever the case - it seems that this is a choice of the designer/builder - and if a customer wants AC, I'm assuming thats something you could choose.
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:53 AM   #34
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First as to Artnautica vs. Dashew? Concept vs. Proven.

Show me all the reviews, all the tests, all the satisfied customers of the Artnautica. All we see is designs, no actual information on boats built from any of their designs? Easy to claim a boat is self righting, but let's see an actual test of one like Elling has done. Would you really put millions into them on that basis?

Call me suspicious, but you just sign up and post 7 times all on a thread "pimping" this designer?

Anyone can draw a few boats. Lots of people can do theoretical designs. I'm not interested until someone has actually built something. Honestly, I'm not a Dashew fan but to even include Artnautica in the same conversation. Yugo cars probably weren't bad in the design stage.

Now as to just the design and style, it's what is important to you. Dashew concepts are consistent with monohull sailboats. Long and narrow. Plenty of waterline for high hull/displacement speeds. Small engines. But small volumes. They may be great at what they purport to be and really that's all one can ask, but tremendous compromise of other areas and things important to many cruisers.

But if that's what you want, don't go with a knock off or rip off, a wannabe.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:39 AM   #35
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>Dashew concepts are consistent with monohull sailboats. Long and narrow. Plenty of waterline for high hull/displacement speeds. Small engines. But small volumes. They may be great at what they purport to be and really that's all one can ask, but tremendous compromise of other areas and things important to many cruisers.<

The folks that want cottages will buy Roomarans , 3 stories high with the look of a Beach Ball!

Cheap slips and a view out every picture window , attractive to empty volume folks.

In the boat or on the boat , different needs for different uses.

We have found a really useful pilot house is where 90% of daylight is spent , so have no problem being IN the boast when sleeping.
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:24 AM   #36
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Butt ugly, in my opinion, just like the Dashew boats.
Long and sleek vs fat, stubby and chunky, there's a girl for every guy.
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:56 AM   #37
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First as to Artnautica vs. Dashew? Concept vs. Proven.

"Show me all the reviews, all the tests, all the satisfied customers of the Artnautica. All we see is designs, no actual information on boats built from any of their designs? Easy to claim a boat is self righting, but let's see an actual test of one like Elling has done. Would you really put millions into them on that basis?"
Healthy Skepticism is always a good thing when looking at new boats - so I agree with that. I've read claims about self-righting but need heard of companies actually testing them - who is this "Elling" you've mentioned. I would love to see all these boats that claim self righting to test them. I want to learn more about this.

And yes - every new boat design has to be built and demonstrated in real-life. But obviously every new boat design needs some early risk takers that buy the design earlier than later. That is one thing I find appealing with the Artnautica design - the designer is building his own first boat, and another second build has been mentioned in the "Morgan's Cloud" article on the boat. So - very soon there will be two boats out on the oceans that we can look to to see if they really do function as hoped.

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First as to Artnautica vs. Dashew? Concept vs. Proven.
"Call me suspicious, but you just sign up and post 7 times all on a thread "pimping" this designer?"
No question - I'm a fan of the new fuel efficient designs like Tad Robert's boats, Dashew's FPB series, and now this new boat design by Artnautica. I make no bones about it. I think low per-mile cruising costs make it much easier to justify actually using your boat. I've had friends who buy the big gas guzzlers then don't take them out much because of the variable cost. I just discovered this Artnautica boat and want to get some expert's opinions on it to see if my initial enthusiasm is warranted. So far - lots of good feedback and issues pointed out - like window area, heat of metal boats, etc. - so I'm learning more and I'm getting more cautious.


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First as to Artnautica vs. Dashew? Concept vs. Proven.

"Now as to just the design and style, it's what is important to you. Dashew concepts are consistent with monohull sailboats. Long and narrow.
But if that's what you want, don't go with a knock off or rip off, a wannabe."
Yes - the Dashew boat functionality is something that appeals to me for safe and efficient long distance ocean exploration - but a starting price of $2.5 million is probably more than I'm going to budget for this particular toy. So my alternative is Sailboat, or a used boat - but both of these entail specific sacrifices I'd rather not make - but might if I have to. So this new Artnautica design at something like $600,000 seems worth checking out. Each year I've read that something like 4,000 to 5,000 people are out crossing oceans in sailboats. Compared to a few dozen similar length power boats - so I think the sailboat-like approach is probably a good one if ocean crossing or long distance cruising is your goal. If, as someone mentioned, the Dashew FPB is for old rich guys, it seems there is a need for similar less expensive boats for younger, not so rich guys - like me. I'm hoping that more companies come out with boats like this so I have more choices. We'll see.
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:03 PM   #38
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First as to Artnautica vs. Dashew? Concept vs. Proven.

Self-rigting - but let's see an actual test of one like Elling has done. Would you really put millions into them on that basis?

But if that's what you want, don't go with a knock off or rip off, a wannabe.
Thanks for the pointer to Elling. I was not familiar with them. Very nice to see that they are actually demonstrating the self-righting ability:

Self-Righting E4 To Be Tested Publicly | | PassageMaker
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:56 PM   #39
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>I'm a fan of the new fuel efficient designs, <

Nothing new,

Back in the day all boats were built long and skinny ,
they didnt have motors that were light and powerful , and back then sea worthy as well as sea kindly were selling points.

Even the Trumpy HOUSEBOATS were efficient , not , bloat boats or beach balls.

My favorite of the era, STROLLER , inshore, not self righting but oh so sweet,

If you look at the photo blown up, the rear seating seems to be 4 -5 ft deep!
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Old 08-28-2014, 01:19 PM   #40
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For decades, Dashew designed and built boats have been in high demand, both new and on the resales market. For good reason if one chooses to cross oceans safely and quickly. They are the Porsche of the boat market with the owners having no intention of following the crowd either in style or roomeran space.

If anyone doubts his creds on prowess or experience read his books. A must for the serious blue water travelers of today IMHO.
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