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Old 05-19-2019, 04:09 AM   #1
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New build of 78' aluminum passagemaker continues

We are into our second year of building our dream boat here in Turkey as of April! It is exciting to see the work on the cabinetry starting. We chose rosewood for the interior, and the beauty of the wood is stunning!

Work on the aluminum hatches that Wayne designed continues as well. In last week's blog post he created a cool screen capture video of how the hinges will work on these flush hatches.

Here is Wayne's latest blog post along with many more photos and a video.
Mobius World blog



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Old 05-19-2019, 05:11 AM   #2
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What a great blog and an even greater boat! Congrats. I look forward to reading all about it.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:54 AM   #3
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Thanks so much for the kind words. We enjoy being able to share the story of bringing a boat project like this to finish. It's quite a unique situation where the boat builders have allowed us to become part of the team. We're not having to manage a DIY build of this size all by ourselves, but we didn't just place an order and wait to be called to go pick it up, either. Wayne is at the yard everyday in his office working with the engineering department and the welders and the carpenters, etc., explaining how he wants things done and the amazing part is that they listen. The boat will end up being a blend of so many individual's ideas and it will be the better for it.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:26 AM   #4
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Looking good! Question - are the hatches or plates sized and aligned to allow removal of the Gardner block if ever required?
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:17 AM   #5
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Looking good! Question - are the hatches or plates sized and aligned to allow removal of the Gardner block if ever required?
Good question and as you suspected the large hinged hatch overtop the Engine Room has been sized to enable us to lower/lift the fully intact Gardner 6LXB complete with the Nogva CPP Servo box attached through it at any time. Though hopefully only once to put it in!

We have taken the same approach with all the other equipment and large items to make sure they can be taken in and out after the boat is fully finished and without requiring any cutting. In some cases the large interior cabinetry like the king size bed frame in the Master Cabin for example, is being made in several pieces that will fit through door openings, hatches, etc. and then be assembled in place.

Christine and I have both had boats in the past where the equipment was all installed into the open hull before the decks went on and made removal "interesting". So we are making very certain that everything on Möbius can be taken on/off the boat without any surgery to the boat or the equipment.

Given your question I'm guessing that you've had similar experiences?
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:26 AM   #6
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Christine and I have both had boats in the past where the equipment was all installed into the open hull before the decks went on and made removal "interesting".
Hi Wayne and Christine. Yep, had that issue where the stacked washer/dryer unit would not fit through the closet door enclosing it. Even removing the trim around the door frame would not allow. I suppose they installed it then put the wood bulkhead in!

That seems like a silly issue to bring up, except my hull bottom had major corrosion underneath that washer unit and there was no access from the interior.

So even though your vessel is aluminum, it is excellent foresight to thing about these things at design/construct stage.
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Old 05-20-2019, 03:56 AM   #7
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Hi Sal. It's always surprised me how many of us boat owners have these stories to tell about not being able to remove the equipment that ends up being trapped inside once the builders put the decks on. But those lessons learned teach us well so we are making sure to not have any such situations on Möbius. There will be some tight fits for a few things but having the 3D model and now the real thing has helped us confirm that all the big items such as engine/CPP, washer/dryer, water heater and such all make it through the finished openings. So there shouldn't be too many surprises when we go to put everything inside.

Hope all is going well with you?
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:51 AM   #8
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Some years ago I noted an all Al DeFever that had the interior portions of the stabilizer enclosed in an Al box. This was in the event of a hull strike tearing off the stabilizer. Then I noted an FPB with a similar setup. Any thought of your enclosing the stabizer units?
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Old 05-20-2019, 08:09 AM   #9
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Some years ago I noted an all Al DeFever that had the interior portions of the stabilizer enclosed in an Al box. This was in the event of a hull strike tearing off the stabilizer. Then I noted an FPB with a similar setup. Any thought of your enclosing the stabizer units?
While Christine and I are not going to install active stabilizers and go instead with passive paravanes, we know that many others will want to have active and we may well change our mind too in the future. So we had Dennis design the XPM hulls with all the reinforcing for active stabilisers to be installed and these have integral coffer dams to fully enclose the actuators. With the hull all prebuilt and ready to receive them, this makes it relatively easy to add active stabilisers at any point in the future.

If we were to be choosing active stabilisers now we would go with those based on the Magnus Effect rather than fins as these fit the use case of the XPM's much better being able to be fully electric (DC or AC) driven, retractable when not in use and able to be have a protective "roll bar" around them when retracted to keep the stabiliser cylinders out of harms way from ice or other hard bits underwater.

We have done our best to do this kind of "future proofing" wherever we can and have multiple examples where we are building the boat for equipment we won't be installing for the initial launch. The dishwasher and the clothes dryer are examples where all the cabinetry, plumbing and electrical is all being built in now but we won't be installing them and these areas will instead be filled with drawers or shelves to match the rest of the cabinetry. But whenever wanted, a standard sized dishwasher or dryer can be installed in a few hours at best.

Having been full time live aboard sailors for most of our adult lives we are trying to apply all those lessons learned in the design and building of this boat and to look ahead as best we can to foresee possible options we may want in the future and have them built in now.

Thanks for all your interest and good questions, look forward to more.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:12 AM   #10
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Wayne you mentioned not installing an electric clothes dryer and the reason I can think of is you mentioned previously that you weren't installing a generator. I assume you're loading up with perhaps a couple of kW of solar as well as the alternators. Can you explain a bit more about your electrical system design?
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:55 AM   #11
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Wayne you mentioned not installing an electric clothes dryer and the reason I can think of is you mentioned previously that you weren't installing a generator. I assume you're loading up with perhaps a couple of kW of solar as well as the alternators. Can you explain a bit more about your electrical system design?
Correct Sal, no generator, Möbius will be an inverter based boat with everything running off the house batteries.

Not a factor mind you for the no clothes dryer decision, we'll have plenty of 240V to run one, we just don't need/want one. We've both grown up and raised kids without them so don't see the need now. However as I mentioned elsewhere there will be a cabinet sized, wired and vented for a dryer should we or other XPM owners want to slide one in. We'll use the space for drawers/shelves instead.

I will do a much more detailed post in the future with the details of our whole electrical system and strategy but the short summary is as follows:
• Primary electrical is 24V DC and 220V 50Hz AC off 3x5kW inverters
• Secondary available throughout the boat of 12V DC from DC-DC converters and 120V 60Hz AC off 1x5kW x 120V inverter
• No Generator and no expectation of shore power, though will have shore power connections fore and aft feeding a Victron Isolation Transformer
• 14 x 380Wp solar panels = 5.32kWp Solar. With losses from shading, wiring, MPPT, etc. calculated solar output per 5.5 hr solar day aprox 22kWh
• 1350Ah @ 24V House Battery (3 x 450Ah@24V banks of 18 Carbon Foam FireFly +L15 4V batteries Total USABLE house bank capacity aprox 950Ah @24V = 23kWh
• Two independent 250A @24V alternators on main engine = 12kWp when underway. Both alts with external rectifiers and regulators located outside the ER
• Anticipated max 24h consumption = 450Ah @ 24V = 10.8kWh Typical 24h consumption 2-300Ah = 4.8 – 7.2kWh

Hope that gives you the big picture and I’ll add more as time allows and as this equipment gets installed.

- Wayne
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:36 AM   #12
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That’s some serious solar! Love your boat!
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:01 AM   #13
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That’s some serious solar! Love your boat!
Thanks CarDude.

One of the benefits of starting the design process with a detailed description of our "first principles" for the boat and then a cascading pyramid with expanding levels of key characteristics and quantified use case data was extremely helpful and meant that we designed the boat around these requirements.

** If you have the interest and time and would like all the details of that process I wrote a full description in THIS earlier posting on the Mobius.World blog.

We knew from the beginning that we wanted/needed to be a fully battery based boat that would be enable us to be self sufficient electrically and in every other way, so the key was to "super size" things like house battery capacity and solar output such that we would have low (less than 20%) DoD on the batteries most days and then more than enough solar output to easily replenish all that and bring the batteries back up to full charge. In addition to giving us a "wide moat" of excess daily battery capacity, it also dramatically increases the cycle life of the batteries.

We have widened this moat further by going with Carbon Foam FireFly batteries which have extremely large cycle life compared to most other battery types and they deal extremely well with PSoC (Partial State of Charge) so that even if we don't charge them full every day, there are no consequences to the health and life span of these batteries.

So that's the plan Stan, and now we'll need to see how this all performs in reality once we launch. I should be able to start sharing all that real world data early next year.

Thanks for the question and please add more whenever you think of them either here or on the Mobius.World blog.

- Wayne
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:56 PM   #14
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Hey Wayne, have you seen/watched the youtube video recently on Top Secret? They went 24V house and said it was one of the few things in their electric conversion that they would change (back to 12V). While a sailing cat, they had 3.8kW solar but went all-electric with 4xOceanvolt 15kW sail drives (they also said that in retrospect they could have gone with 2x instead of 4x).
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:40 AM   #15
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Actually I was going to ask Wayne what he thought about 48V, because I recall a conversation about that. Especially if he's pulling 15kVA from inverters.
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Old 05-22-2019, 04:08 AM   #16
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That’s some serious solar! Love your boat!
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Hey Wayne, have you seen/watched the youtube video recently on Top Secret? They went 24V house and said it was one of the few things in their electric conversion that they would change (back to 12V). While a sailing cat, they had 3.8kW solar but went all-electric with 4xOceanvolt 15kW sail drives (they also said that in retrospect they could have gone with 2x instead of 4x).
Hi Rob, thanks for the reference to the “Top Secret” videos on YouTube. We watch and follow a LOT of YouTube channels and find them to be absolutely fabulous. Great learning and entertainment what's not to like?

It was interesting to get the overview from Rean Snyman and his complete renovation and repowering of his Voyage 580 catamaran "Top Secret" and always good to get different perspectives. Their use case it so much different than ours with Top Secret being a sailing cat and their use being shorter more coastal routes but like us they apparently aim to make this their full time home so no "camping" and to spend most of their time on anchor so lots of similarities as well.

However as he discusses, with current options, electric power is only good for relatively short amounts of time and distance, he estimated 25 minutes at full power, before you have to start up generators to keep up with the power demands of, in his case, four 48V 15kW motors so you then become a "diesel powered" boat really with all the added overhead of the electric motor saildrives. Not knocking this at all, what matters most I think is finding the best fit and solutions for the individual use case of each owner/boat. In our case being an eXtreme eXploration Passage Maker or XPM boat we set a goal of a minimum of 7k NM range along and electrically self sufficient at anchor, along with the many other criteria I outlined in this "Mission Impossible" post I linked to above. So for us, our super efficient Gardner 6LXB, still just about the most thermally efficient diesel engine ever produced at just a tad over 40% (200.7 g/kWh) was the best choice and in terms of overall energy used per distance traveled and the super sized solar and battery banks were the best choice for us for electrical power onboard Möbius. Where I do see this situation changing is on larger catamarans that are being designed from the beginning to take advantage of the MUCH larger surface area available on a cat and covering it all with high output solar panels. From what I see and read, things are at a tipping point in this regard where there are now a few very large cats, over 24m or so, which are being designed with these massive solar arrays producing enough electric power to enable an all electric propulsion to cross oceans. I’m sure this trend will continue into the future as we see more and more advances in the equipment and technology for things like electrical storage (aka batteries), solar panel PV efficiency, and whole new power generation options. But we need to build a boat NOW and with technology and equipment that is currently available AND has been well proven in real world conditions, and that has been one of the big driving factors in all our decisions.

Rean talks about being OK with traveling as low as 4 kts if need be to do self-generation and help keep up with Top Secret’s electrical demands a bit that way, though he also talks about doing a lot of “motor sailing” and regen at the same time which doesn’t quite compute in my head. In any case, we weren’t willing to make such a big compromise in overall speed on long passages as one of our criteria includes being able to average 220-250 NM per 24 hour day which equates to an average speed of 9-10 NM/hr in typical open ocean passage conditions. It’s not that we are in a hurry per say or have any thoughts of being a “speed boat” and we are two of those odd people who actually LOVE being on long passages. The daily distance goal is about safety and being able to shorten the overall passage time in situations where the weather and seas have a probability of being difficult and less predictable. Being able to shorten a passage by several days increases the accuracy of any weather forecasting and even if conditions change unexpectedly, the ability to alter our route significantly, slow down/speed up to stay with good weather or side step nasty conditions is a key part of achieving our top priorities of Safe, Comfortable, Efficient passages.

As for Rean’s mention of going back to 12V I think this would most likely be “saving pennies while spending dollars” and I find a lot of his “math” to be a bit “loose” and incomplete. The reasons he gave for saying he might chose to go with 12V rather than 24V if he had it to do all over again, were that some of the 24V equipment was more expensive and that “less people are familiar with 24V”. Both can be true but the trend seems clear to me, that onboard voltages are going up not down and the reason is largely for overall efficiency. Christine and I looked into this quite a bit as we were making our decisions for Möbius’ electrical systems and concluded that the best and most efficient choice was 24V for pretty much all our DC needs and consumers. When taking a systems and total boat perspective, the higher voltages are more efficient in all regards from electrical efficiency to weight efficiency to cost.

The efficiency gain in going with the higher voltage, both 24V DC and 220V AC is largely in the wiring and being able to have much less voltage drop in each circuit while still using much smaller, about half, sized wire and cable. It was all the more surprising to hear this from a cat owner as they are so much more sensitive to weight and the weight reduction from cutting your weight in copper wire approximately in half is quite significant for a boat of his size and complexity. Weight is a much lower concern for us on a displacement power boat however we definitely factor weight into all our decisions. We think about weight onboard the same way we think about money, we have a savings and value driven mindset wherein we are always looking for ways and situations to do equally “smart” savings AND smart spending. What that means to us with weight onboard is that we always look for places where we can have a savings in weight and use that to credit our weight budget and allow us to “spend” some weight in other choices. The weight savings from using higher voltage smaller gauge wiring is combined with things like using lighter weight marine plywood and foam filled box panels for large doors and other cabinetry enable us to “spend” some of this weight using stone for our Galley countertops.

We have also been maintaining a large and growing database with pretty much every single thing onboard from the aluminium and other raw materials, to each piece of equipment, wiring, plumbing as well as all our personal effects from dishes, pots and pans, computers, and clothes and each of these are given their mass and XYZ coordinate positions onboard. Putting all of this data into the 3D model allows us to run hydrodynamic test routines as we populate the boat with all this equipment and whenever we make any significant change to equipment, materials or locations and provide us with pretty accurate data, charts and models for things such as static and dynamic stability, roll rates, CG, CB, GM and the waterline at each angle of roll to name a few. Super valuable data to help us make better informed decisions.

Rean also cited “less people know about 24V systems than 12” as one of his reasons for thinking he might go with 12 vs 24, and I scratch my head over that a bit as I don’t see that there is much difference at all in DC know how for different voltages. The rules and equipment are all the same. It was certainly true in the past that the cost for the 24V version vs 12V of the same piece of equipment was much higher, but that differential has been shrinking at an ever increasing rate over the past 10+ years and my guestimate is that we now see more cases where there is little to no difference in price for 12V vs 24V versions, which I suspect is a reflection of more and more boats going with the higher voltages which increases the sales volume. For our decisions it became a non factor.

Whew!! Way more of an answer than you wanted or expected I’m sure Rob, but hope it is useful and thanks for your questions.

- Wayne
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Old 05-22-2019, 04:32 AM   #17
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Actually I was going to ask Wayne what he thought about 48V, because I recall a conversation about that. Especially if he's pulling 15kVA from inverters.
Hi Sal, just seeing this comment after my typically "brief" response to Rob's earlier question about 12 vs 24V. For our XPM "battery/inverter based" boat 24V makes more sense in our estimation as the gains of going with 48V would be negated by the need to convert from 48 down to 24 and 12 for most of the DC based equipment on board. For situations and boats that are going with electric motors then I think 48V and higher wins out easily and we will see this trend of higher voltages continue to grow in the future.

As I outlined excessively in my previous response to Rob, for our XPM boat and use case and at this point in time, we decided that 24V is the sweet spot for maximum efficiency electrically, costs and weight. So as I noted in my earlier response to you, our primary voltages onboard are 24V DC and 220V AC and then we also have some outlets spread around the boat for 12V and 120V for equipment that requires this and for some of our family and friends who visit with similar equipment and tech they want to use when with us.

I might mention though that another trend we are noticing is that the range of voltages which more and more consumer appliances and tech are specifying is growing on both the DC and AC side. Tech gear for example is almost always powered by DC in the end and when you read their spec labels, they are more and more built to accept a large range of DC voltages. On the AC side, we are seeing more and more "universal" power supplies and appliances in both voltages and frequencies. More and more that are willing to take anything from 110-240V AC and also able to work well with either 50 or 60Hz. This is a great trend to see to make it easier to have a more usable "world boat" and have more choices of equipment and appliances when they don't have to be driven by a voltage or frequency limitation. I'm confident this trend will continue into the future.
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:57 AM   #18
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Given the size and weight of your vessel, passive paravanes seem an operational risk and a personal safety issue. Fifteen years ago the "Windhorse" design team faced the same choices and installed both as I recall. Steve quickly became an active stabilizer advocate.

Another passive issue, seldom talked about but real is the wider footprint paravanes create with a statistical potential increase in debris strikes. With all the great thinking, design and execution you're putting into your vessel to accept active stabilizers, conceptually waiting for the need to arise may bear a rethink. Especially given the yard's ability and vessel's build stage.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:19 PM   #19
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Hey Wayne, it appears you've put more than a few seconds into thinking about it all .

I agree with most everything you've said BTW. I haven't done the looking to know whether 12v or 24v is the "right" one - I don't doubt there isn't such a thing for everyone or even the majority.

Our requirements are different to Rean's/Top Secret's too - we have a 50' aluminium power catamaran that's more an expedition boat than leisure (I won't say pleasure as we geet plenty of that ). We are 12v house too so far, but we've only just bought the boat last year and things may change.

Regarding aluminium, we can but agree that it makes a great boat (which doesn't mean other materials don't ). Ours is Strongall (TM) rather than traditional alu - 12mm aluminium bottoms make us feel pretty safe from some things.

Love the Gardner choice! Ours came with two naturally aspirated Perkins 135's which are similarly bullet proof.
We have been loosely planning solar-assisted hybridising though which would work for our use cases. 18kW DC genset. 3kW solar that isn't shaded.
  • longer distances 500+nm (slow 6kn:electric+genset, faster 8-9kn:diesels; 5% of time),
  • medium passages >50,<400nm (slow 6kn:electric+genset, faster 10-11kn:diesels; 10% of time)
  • short passages <50nm (slow 6kn:electric+solar, faster 10-13kn:diesels; 25% of time)
  • anchored (solar; 60% of time),
Which of course says that, if we're happy with 6-7kn then we could get rid of the 2x diesel engines entirely, and just keep one in the form of the genset. Huge benefits for maintenance, complexity, throughhulls, weight saving, longevity. Huge disadvantages in cost and some in speed. We're still thinking it through...

Anyway, this is your thread - really interesting choices and quite similar in some ways to Dashew's which is what @sunchaser references.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:20 AM   #20
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mcarthur, so you're considering a diesel-electric propulsion system basically. But those systems are usually high voltage DC systems. An interesting idea though.
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